Scottish Football downright embarrassing

[California Bee]

In the Scottish League Three today a quick glance at the total attendance for all games was 1,903 with Cowdenbeath posting the low water mark of 280. And the Scottish FA wants to preserve Scottish football by staying out of the UK's Olympic squad for Beijing. What a joke that is!!

[Edmundo]

What's new? There aren't many people in Scotland. Especially outside Glasgow and Edinburgh.

[California Bee]

The home teams today have populations as follows:

Arbroath 25,000
Berwick upon Tweed 26,000
Cowdenbeath 18,500
Montrose 14,000
Stenhousemuir 10,500

The away teams shape up like this:

East Fife (Methil) 16,391
East Stirlingshire (Falkirk) 145,000
Queens Park (Glasgow) 569,000
Albion Rovers (Coatbridge) 48,000
Elgin 20,000

Doesn't look as though East Stirlingshire and Queens Park have a big away following...

[Sweepy]

The lower Scottish leagues have attracted those sort of attendances ever since i've been alive.

[California Bee]

Originally Posted by Sweepy

The lower Scottish leagues have attracted those sort of attendances ever since i've been alive.

Happy yesterbirthday Sweepy.

You should have chosen an older mum , then you could have seen some of these matches:

Arbroath vs Hearts in 1947 9,000
Arbroath vs Raith in 1960 6,000

Berwick vs Rangers in 1967 13,283 -- Berwick won 1-0

Cowdenbeath vs Ayr in 1950 6,000
Cowdenbeath used to play in front of 13,000 in the 20s and 30s

Montrose vs Hibernian in 1976 4,000

Stenhousemuir vs Falkirk in 1960 8,000


Those were the days!!! Kerry doon on yer hunkers and keek up the lum!

[rock_on_u_bees]

only just found this, poor Scotland, i love that country! ('spose i would being half Scots)
Would love to live there, but its too cold

[California Bee]

Wick is warm

[jmcp]

California Bee could you do a similar comparison on Brentford Attendances : Tday and Yesteryear. I think we would come out badly too!

[TOMOGP]

Originally Posted by jmcp

California Bee could you do a similar comparison on Brentford Attendances : Tday and Yesteryear. I think we would come out badly too!

Without looking in any books of course we would and probably worse

late 40s in the old 2nd Div probable average 18k
Old div 3 south 13/14k

Where have they gone dispirited by obvious/apparent lack of ambition
The davies Bros who used to own us pay a transfer fee no fear it was generally understood although invariably being near the top of the division the directors did'nt want to go up

and apathy breeds apathy we have bled fans over the last 40 years

[Jimbee]

Originally Posted by jmcp

California Bee could you do a similar comparison on Brentford Attendances : Tday and Yesteryear. I think we would come out badly too!

[Carri Bee Un]

Originally Posted by TOMOGP

Where have they gone dispirited by obvious/apparent lack of ambition

To be fair to the late 40's stayaway army, a lot of them are not so much upset with the lack of ambition but, in fact, are dead.

[California Bee]

Originally Posted by jmcp

California Bee could you do a similar comparison on Brentford Attendances : Tday and Yesteryear. I think we would come out badly too!

That is most certainly true jmcp. It's only fair to point out that my comments were in response to Sweepy's assertion that the Scottish attendances had always been low, at least in his lifetime. I was merely pointing out that earlier attendances had been considerably higher.

[jmcp]

Maybe you were in regards to your answer to Sweepy but your initial comment was having a go at Scottish Lower League football in particular the basement division. I was just saying you could say the same about English Football.

I think its worth saying in support of Scottish Football this season the Scottish Title Race will almost definately be more exciting than the English one. So many years English people have said ' Scotland is boring a two horse race'. This year it will be at least a three horse one while the English is non - exsistent!

[Brentford St George]

Originally Posted by Edmundo

What's new? There aren't many people in Scotland. Especially outside Glasgow and Edinburgh.

What a stupid comment,that's like saying no live's outside of London and Manchester.

You have not heard of cities such as Dundee and Aberdeen then?

[Boston Bee]

...? Neither Dundee or Aberdeen are meaningfully bigger (and without looking, I'd say smaller) than Norwich, or even an Oxford or Brighton. There aren't a lot of folks up there in total.

Originally Posted by Brentford St George

What a stupid comment,that's like saying no live's outside of London and Manchester.

You have not heard of cities such as Dundee and Aberdeen then?

[Luton Bee]

Originally Posted by California Bee

Wick is warm

Try a cold shower then!

[Paul O'Brien]

Certainly the attendances are low in absolute terms, but considering that Scotland has a population of around one-thirteenth of England, in relative terms they're not that bad.

Look at it this way: There are around 4m people north of the border, which means a gate of 500 equates in relative terms to 6,500; our attendance of 6,000 would equate to around 78,000. And as for Rangers and Celtic, their gates equate to around 560,000 to 720,000. Per match.

Even if one takes the number of teams into account, it's relatively fairly good. Including the Highland League (which was traditionally viewed as being at least the equivalent of the lower levels of the Scottish League) there are around 52-56 clubs at senior level. That's around half the number in the English League plus the Conference.

In relative terms, therefore, that would make a gate of 500 equivalent to 3000+

[California Bee]

Originally Posted by Paul O'Brien

Certainly the attendances are low in absolute terms, but considering that Scotland has a population of around one-thirteenth of England, in relative terms they're not that bad.

Look at it this way: There are around 4m people north of the border, which means a gate of 500 equates in relative terms to 6,500; our attendance of 6,000 would equate to around 78,000. And as for Rangers and Celtic, their gates equate to around 560,000 to 720,000. Per match.

Even if one takes the number of teams into account, it's relatively fairly good. Including the Highland League (which was traditionally viewed as being at least the equivalent of the lower levels of the Scottish League) there are around 52-56 clubs at senior level. That's around half the number in the English League plus the Conference.

In relative terms, therefore, that would make a gate of 500 equivalent to 3000+

So really, Scottish football below Division One has no business being included as "professional" football and belongs down there with Ryman II and other small leagues.

[Paul O'Brien]

"So really, Scottish football below Division One has no business being included as "professional" football and belongs down there with Ryman II and other small leagues."

Arguably, yes, purely in terms of gates, tho' I hate to say so. In any case, most of the clubs at that level are I think semi-pro other than Queen's Park and Gretna.

In football terms, there are a few reasonable players outside the top 2 divisions, but a large number of the clubs coast along season after season with no ambition beyond drawing Celtic or Rangers in the Cup (or at a pinch Aberdeen or one of the Dundee pr Edinburgh clubs).

To make matters worse, other than the couple of Highland Clubs in the League, Aberdeen, St Johnstone and the two Dundee clubs (plus poor old Stranraer) just about every club is located in a narrow band within easy reach of Glasgow and Edinburgh. A bit like having 80 clubs within 20 miles of the M4 corridor. For many many fans it's not worth going to East Stirling when you can trot along to Ibrox. Sad, especially as they're not even community clubs any more.

[California Bee]

Originally Posted by jmcp

Maybe you were in regards to your answer to Sweepy but your initial comment was having a go at Scottish Lower League football in particular the basement division. I was just saying you could say the same about English Football.

I think its worth saying in support of Scottish Football this season the Scottish Title Race will almost definately be more exciting than the English one. So many years English people have said ' Scotland is boring a two horse race'. This year it will be at least a three horse one while the English is non - exsistent!

So Hearts is leading in the early going but Celtic/Rangers have won the league forever. Blackburn won the Premiership once but that didn't alter the fact that the two Premier Leagues are a closed-shop joke when it comes to competitiveness.

[California Bee]

Originally Posted by Paul O'Brien

To make matters worse, other than the couple of Highland Clubs in the League, Aberdeen, St Johnstone and the two Dundee clubs (plus poor old Stranraer) just about every club is located in a narrow band within easy reach of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

I think you will find that at least sixteen Scottish clubs -Berwick Rangers, Elgin City, Peterhead, Arbroath, Forfar Athletic, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Brechin City, Ayr United, Gretna, Queen of the South(Dumfries), Stranraer, Ross County(Dingwall), Aberdeen, St. Johnstone(Perth), Dundee United and Dundee - are all located well beyond the narrow band you described.

[Paul O'Brien]

To be fair, I did include Elgin City, Peterhead, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Ross County, Stranraer, Aberdeen, St. Johnstone, Dundee United and Dundee as exceptions. Ayr is about 40 miles from Glasgow, so it's arguably in the band.

However, Gretna, Berwick Rangers, Arbroath, Forfar Athletic, Brechin City and Queen of the South I willingly grant you. (Also Montrose). I tend to forget that Forfar, Arbroath and Montrose are 'close' to Dundee and not in the central belt.

Even so, it's a massive centralisation.

Fortunately, I said 'just about', so that clears me I hope.

IThink it's bad now? Imagine what it would have been like if they'd kept on with the extra (C) division in its various guises as well, and if the teams like Arthurlie, St Bernards etc were still in there. (Or for that matter if Wigan Athletic had succeeded with their attempt to get into the Scottish League years ago.)

[California Bee]

Let's call it a draw! You make a fair point PO'B

[Bee H]

Originally Posted by California Bee

Scottish football below Division One has no business being included as "professional" football and belongs down there with Ryman II and other small leagues.

Can't see too much wrong with that personally !

If it's not the crowds, it's the standard of the football that is a pile of poo !

[Gee Bee]

Originally Posted by California Bee

So really, Scottish football below Division One has no business being included as "professional" football and belongs down there with Ryman II and other small leagues.

Yes is the answer. Many of the clubs play at grounds that are very similar in standard to Ryman league levels with capacities of about 3K.
Scotland have a Premier league and only a dozen or so grounds are good enough to use at that level. Inverness, who I saw play the year they got promoted to the premier have a ground with one fairly decent stand the remainder is a dozen terracing steps. They had to play their premier home games at Aberdeen and probably still do, unless they have spent alot of money on their ground.