Post Match Thread Brentford 0 - 0 Middlesbrough

grutter

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I wonder if the fact that our pre season was the shortest of any, and by the end of last season they were playing on empty having made a magnificent effort to get promotion explains our current “ jaded” look. I would also Chuck into the equation the mental fatigue occasioned by failure to secure promotion both automatically or via the playoffs.

You may consider that these are just excuses however personally I feel that combined with the sterile world of football it is having an effect on a predominately young squad
Slightly off topic, but as quite a few have mentioned fatigue as a factor in some of our slow pace, lethargic play.Mods, feel free to shift this elsewhere if needed. Quite along post, but bear with me.

I've done a quick comparison. I chose Swansea - for three reasons. Firstly, it's widely accepted they looked more energetic than us and secondly, their previous season lasted almost as long as ours and thirdly, they also lost one of their best players (Brewster). I looked at Swansea's 11 league fixtures to see how much rotation of squad is going on there compared to at BFC. Below is how many of their players have started each of those games.

Woodman 10/11
Cabango 8/11
Rodon 4/11
Guehi 11/11
Roberts 11/11
Smith 10/11
Grimes 8/11
Bidwell 10/11
Gibbs-White 4/11
Lowe 11/11
Ayew 11/11
Naughton 6/11
Gyokeres 2/11
Bennett 5/11
Fulton 5/11
Dhanda 3/11

And for our own 11 starts:

Daniels : 4/11
Raya : 7/11
Dalsgaard : 11/11
Janson 6/11
Pinnock 11/11
Henry 10/11
Mbeumo 10/11
Da Silva 11/11
Norgaard 4/11
Marcondes 5/11
Jensen 6/11
Canos 8/11
Toney 11/11
Janelt 4/11
Goode 2/11
Bech Sorensen 4/11

Summary
-They've started with 16 different players, we've also started with 16.
-7 of their players started at least 10/11 games, whereas it's 6 of ours.

Clearly, I don't know who their 'key' players are (other than Ayew) or what injuries they've encountered. However, from the basic data above, there seems to be no physical reason why we should look more knackered than Swansea. I put our start more down to some of our key players not being at their best, a lack of leadership on the pitch and TF not being clear how best to use Ghoddos and/or Marcondes. Losing Norgaard and an over-reliance on Josh DS must affect us too.
 

Bridge Bee

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Looking at the table I wonder if it’s going to be a record low number of points for top 6 this season. Feels like no stand out teams and if we (and others) are feeling the pace and injury pinch now what’s it going to be like in March. I know the championship is everyone beating everyone else, but you normally get 3 or 4 sides stronger than the rest. I dont see that this season.

Others will benefit more from international breaks more than us as they don’t have as many players going away. You really have to question the point of international games right now. Nobody needs the extra games or the travel risk.
 
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Mr Cynical

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Slightly off topic, but as quite a few have mentioned fatigue as a factor in some of our slow pace, lethargic play.Mods, feel free to shift this elsewhere if needed. Quite along post, but bear with me.

I've done a quick comparison. I chose Swansea - for three reasons. Firstly, it's widely accepted they looked more energetic than us and secondly, their previous season lasted almost as long as ours and thirdly, they also lost one of their best players (Brewster). I looked at Swansea's 11 league fixtures to see how much rotation of squad is going on there compared to at BFC. Below is how many of their players have started each of those games.

Woodman 10/11
Cabango 8/11
Rodon 4/11
Guehi 11/11
Roberts 11/11
Smith 10/11
Grimes 8/11
Bidwell 10/11
Gibbs-White 4/11
Lowe 11/11
Ayew 11/11
Naughton 6/11
Gyokeres 2/11
Bennett 5/11
Fulton 5/11
Dhanda 3/11

And for our own 11 starts:

Daniels : 4/11
Raya : 7/11
Dalsgaard : 11/11
Janson 6/11
Pinnock 11/11
Henry 10/11
Mbeumo 10/11
Da Silva 11/11
Norgaard 4/11
Marcondes 5/11
Jensen 6/11
Canos 8/11
Toney 11/11
Janelt 4/11
Goode 2/11
Bech Sorensen 4/11

Summary
-They've started with 16 different players, we've also started with 16.
-7 of their players started at least 10/11 games, whereas it's 6 of ours.

Clearly, I don't know who their 'key' players are (other than Ayew) or what injuries they've encountered. However, from the basic data above, there seems to be no physical reason why we should look more knackered than Swansea. I put our start more down to some of our key players not being at their best, a lack of leadership on the pitch and TF not being clear how best to use Ghoddos and/or Marcondes. Losing Norgaard and an over-reliance on Josh DS must affect us too.
We have played a few more cup games though, and then there's the international stuff to consider. They certainly looked sharper but that could well be a mental thing, a hangover from last season perhaps as Les B suggested. You just have to look at Mbeumo when things don't go his way to see that stuff is boiling away underneath. It's a lot harder to do the intense pressing and running off the ball our style requires if you think things aren't going your way or you're not quite in the zone... Dalsgaard though has certainly adjusted his game to cope and I think that's having an adverse effect on Mbeumo in particular.

You're definitely right though that we're missing key players and some aren't hitting the heights. We've also had to change our style a little to cope with the loss of Said and that hasn't really clicked yet. I think TF does know what he wants to do with Ghoddos and Marcondes (we saw a glimpse of it v Swansea with them and Toney constantly rotating) but I'm not sure it'll work until Norgaard is back fully fit as we just can't see to progress the ball from defence quickly or accurately enough at the moment.

I don't buy the leadership thing though. Granted, Norgaard is a big loss in that respect, but Preston is really the only time we've totally caved in a game. Even at Stoke we fought back well after a disastrous first half and in general we've kept our shape well even when under the cosh. I don't think we've shown any lack of fight, it's more the fluid football that's lacking at the moment.
 

Wooburn Bee

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We have played a few more cup games though, and then there's the international stuff to consider. They certainly looked sharper but that could well be a mental thing, a hangover from last season perhaps as Les B suggested. You just have to look at Mbeumo when things don't go his way to see that stuff is boiling away underneath. It's a lot harder to do the intense pressing and running off the ball our style requires if you think things aren't going your way or you're not quite in the zone... Dalsgaard though has certainly adjusted his game to cope and I think that's having an adverse effect on Mbeumo in particular.

You're definitely right though that we're missing key players and some aren't hitting the heights. We've also had to change our style a little to cope with the loss of Said and that hasn't really clicked yet. I think TF does know what he wants to do with Ghoddos and Marcondes (we saw a glimpse of it v Swansea with them and Toney constantly rotating) but I'm not sure it'll work until Norgaard is back fully fit as we just can't see to progress the ball from defence quickly or accurately enough at the moment.

I don't buy the leadership thing though. Granted, Norgaard is a big loss in that respect, but Preston is really the only time we've totally caved in a game. Even at Stoke we fought back well after a disastrous first half and in general we've kept our shape well even when under the cosh. I don't think we've shown any lack of fight, it's more the fluid football that's lacking at the moment.
I wonder whether Thomas will, without our wide attacking players firing consider more a 4 2 3 1 formation with 2 from three of Norgaard Jensen and Janelt behind a three from Da Silva Marcondes Mbeumo and Ghoddos? Would require width and pace coming from full backs which suits Rico but would need right back to be either Roerslev or Canos or Fosu converting. Front four could still apply pressing game and we would have adequate protection for the defence giving Jensen the ability to have space and time to dictate the play.
 

Bigbee

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we're missing our key players ? Who ? Dont miss Pontus , he's been poor , only Christian is missed ?
 

Delbee

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I wonder whether Thomas will, without our wide attacking players firing consider more a 4 2 3 1 formation with 2 from three of Norgaard Jensen and Janelt behind a three from Da Silva Marcondes Mbeumo and Ghoddos? Would require width and pace coming from full backs which suits Rico but would need right back to be either Roerslev or Canos or Fosu converting. Front four could still apply pressing game and we would have adequate protection for the defence giving Jensen the ability to have space and time to dictate the play.
Interesting also Ive said and would like to see Norgaard and Janelt sitting deep pushing Dasilva Jenson and Marcondes or Ghoddos further forward .That would allow Marcondes or Ghoddos to get close to Toney
You also could add Dervisoglo to the attacking midfielder
 

jlove

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Interesting also Ive said and would like to see Norgaard and Janelt sitting deep pushing Dasilva Jenson and Marcondes or Ghoddos further forward .That would allow Marcondes or Ghoddos to get close to Toney
You also could add Dervisoglo to the attacking midfielder
We're only allowed 11 players, though. The challenge of playing two holding in midfield is that you've removed a player from the attack, so outnumbered there. I'd be quite confident with Nørgaard going forward as he can certainly pass but surely it's better for one of an attacking pair in midfield to be dropping back when required, rather than the other way around. Marcondes (despite all the detailed analysers of his activities) and Jensen do this and Dasilva will often drop into a full back position to cover, too. The real missing ingredient is movement into space from the wide attackers.
 

Delbee

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We're only allowed 11 players, though. The challenge of playing two holding in midfield is that you've removed a player from the attack, so outnumbered there. I'd be quite confident with Nørgaard going forward as he can certainly pass but surely it's better for one of an attacking pair in midfield to be dropping back when required, rather than the other way around. Marcondes (despite all the detailed analysers of his activities) and Jensen do this and Dasilva will often drop into a full back position to cover, too. The real missing ingredient is movement into space from the wide attackers.
I do only use 11
Gk
Back 4
Holding midfielders 2
Forward midfields / striker support 3
Striker 1

With the 2 holding midfield it would allow for attacking full backs
 

jlove

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I do only use 11
Gk
Back 4
Holding midfielders 2
Forward midfields / striker support 3
Striker 1

With the 2 holding midfield it would allow for attacking full backs
OK, 4-2-3-1, like we used to early in the Championship days. Personally, I don't think chopping around with formations, which would also means different styles of play, helps, particularly with younger players. Pick one, train for it and play it; have alternatives for seeing out or chasing a game.
 

West Wilts Bee

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we're missing our key players ? Who ? Dont miss Pontus , he's been poor , only Christian is missed ?
Agree i have been trying to get my head around that one.
 

AB

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How can Colin spend his whole football career churning out sshit like he does . Effective , yep ,stopping team playing cos he cant make his sides attacking and entertaining . I hope he's pleased with what he's achieved in his 1500 games in charge .Dinosaur needs shooting .One dimensional
It’s effective and much as we love to watch the Bees in full flight pinging the ball around we’re also (see almost every match report thread this season) very critical when the passes go a little astray or get blocked or intercepted. We complain bitterly about our players making bad decisions with little flicks and nutmegs that don’t come off, about them not working hard enough to win the second ball etc etc etc. Warnock doesn’t give the fans those moments of joy but he delivers oodles of hard work and commitment. And promotions.
 

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Said and Ollie I think :fishing:
i do note the fishing rod, but everyone knew that was coming. We signed the two lads from oxford, one of them is so injury prone, and i know that for a fact. And a very good signing in Ivan, and vitaly in the window.and so far only Ivan has stepped up to the plate vitaly is looking good , and he has come into the first team ahead of schedule baptiste i am afraid is another sick note case, so only Ivan so far in a like for like with Ollie.
 

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It’s effective and much as we love to watch the Bees in full flight pinging the ball around we’re also (see almost every match report thread this season) very critical when the passes go a little astray or get blocked or intercepted. We complain bitterly about our players making bad decisions with little flicks and nutmegs that don’t come off, about them not working hard enough to win the second ball etc etc etc. Warnock doesn’t give the fans those moments of joy but he delivers oodles of hard work and commitment. And promotions.
It's a choice, do you want to watch that crap every week but knowing your going to be in with a shout at season end, or watch free flowing football where you have to accept that you will lose games against teams who grind you down but don't play the football. The answer I suspect is somewhere in the middle. I for one could not watch Boro play like that every week promotion or not. I would rather lose 2-3 rather than set up to go out to win games 1-0 every week.
 
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liverbee

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I thought Boro played well. We were wasteful at times. I still say the commentary was inordinately dull. Let's be clear: we all want crowds, but if a commentator can make a pigeon on an empty pitch and a half tanked aussie with a sunburnt nose sound interesting, surely our threesome could improve on echoing the twitterati and , alas, GPG moans.
 

rodders

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I though our passing was poor compared to our run pre burn out last season. Mbeumo not at races so far this season . Slow in thought loses the ball at every tackle.
 

Longhope Bee

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I wonder if the fact that our pre season was the shortest of any, and by the end of last season they were playing on empty having made a magnificent effort to get promotion explains our current “ jaded” look. I would also Chuck into the equation the mental fatigue occasioned by failure to secure promotion both automatically or via the playoffs.

You may consider that these are just excuses however personally I feel that combined with the sterile world of football it is having an effect on a predominately young squad
Exactly my thoughts. I actually think that Thomas looks somewhat jaded as well. We did not have anything like the usual pre-season (length or quality) and add in any possible impact of the move to the new ground and I'm not surprised by our current situation. In retrospect I'm relieved that we didn't win the play-off final as I think (even had we kept OW and SB) we could have been slaughtered in the Premier League. But whatever the outcome of this season let's be appreciative that our current financial position is far batter than most and should put us in a good position for a 2021/2022 'normal' season.
 

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A Middlesborough mate of mine sent me the link below, it shows Lionel Road during the game from more of the fans aspect

Just stumbled on this on YouTube today. Very similar to what Norwich did the other week. Really good views of the new stadium. Even managed to make the game look half decent.
 

UnsungZero

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Just stumbled on this on YouTube today. Very similar to what Norwich did the other week. Really good views of the new stadium. Even managed to make the game look half decent.
They Janelt miss looks both high and wide from their camera angle.
 

HaylingBee74

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With games being played BCD, I would love the option to have this view of matches. I was emotional watching it, I dont need commentators or watching with a wide angle view of the stadium. Watching this makes me miss being there far far more. Thank you
 

smiffy superbee

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I would rather lose 2-3 rather than set up to go out to win games 1-0 every week.
Sorry Kingston, in a way share your sentiment, but losing 3-2 every week gets you relegated.
So have to disagree.....it's a numbers game ......prefer wins.....promotions......money ....Euro football?....more money .... ask Matthew.
 

ruislip bee

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Sorry Kingston, in a way share your sentiment, but losing 3-2 every week gets you relegated.
So have to disagree.....it's a numbers game ......prefer wins.....promotions......money ....Euro football?....more money .... ask Matthew.
If Mr B thought that he'd surely have recruited Warnock years ago.
 

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