Is Scottish football now completely discredited?

[Sweepy]

I was looking at the Scottish Premier League table today and it made for depressing reading. How must you feel if you support one of the other teams that are not the Old Firm?

The combined total for Celtic and Rangers so far in the league: Played 16 - Won 16 - Drawn 0 - Lost 0. Possibly the most uncompetitive league in Europe.
Once respected teams such as Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee United are now reduced to figures of ridicule.
Even Terry Butcher is a success down at that level.
And their national team has been poor for years.

We don't want Celtic or Rangers - or their pathetic rivalry - tarnishing the English game. So what next for Scottish football? Expel the rest of the Scottish teams and just have a two-legged decider between the two sides?

 

[Salford Bee]

They might as well just play each other - the winner gets the cup. Draw - previous winner retains the cup.

 

[Newport Pagnell Bee]

Isn't the Premiership heading in the same direction?

 

[California Bee]

I was looking at the Scottish Premier League table today and it made for depressing reading. How must you feel if you support one of the other teams that are not the Old Firm?

The combined total for Celtic and Rangers so far in the league: Played 16 - Won 16 - Drawn 0 - Lost 0. Possibly the most uncompetitive league in Europe.
Once respected teams such as Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee United are now reduced to figures of ridicule.
Even Terry Butcher is a success down at that level.
And their national team has been poor for years.

We don't want Celtic or Rangers - or their pathetic rivalry - tarnishing the English game. So what next for Scottish football? Expel the rest of the Scottish teams and just have a two-legged decider between the two sides?

Nothing new there. It's been that way for decades. Presonally I would like the government to intervene in the Premier and The SPL with some action against the big wealthy clubs for restraint of trade, cartel or monopoly.

 

[Brain-dead Bee]

Nothing new there. It's been that way for decades. Presonally I would like the government to intervene in the Premier and The SPL with some action against the big wealthy clubs for restraint of trade, cartel or monopoly.

While I'd like to see more competitive leagues, I don't see where Government comes into it (leaving aside the fact that govt intervention could get us thrown out of FIFA - Nigeria were recently)

Football authorities could do it through wage caps, but it would have to be cross-Europe, if not global, or you would just end up with all English clubs at a similar level to one another and well below other countries

 

[Ghost]

Scottish Football, Monkey Tennis
Monkey Tennis, Scottish Football

:scratch:

 

[Mr Tree]

following some transfer news in the summer, it seems that the SPL is about the level of League One these days, right? dire...

mind you, i'm pretty sure Brentford would be the 4th or 5th biggest team in the Czech Rep, and it looks like Scotland are going down the route of the Czech league, which had similar problems with Sparta and Slavia... How to solve it? Well, Sparta and Slavia slowly got sh*tter, which gave all the others a chance

 

[Adam]

Isn't the Premiership heading in the same direction?

:scratch:

Im understand that some teams have a lot more money compared to the rest but their are arguably 6 teams that could win the title if you still count Liverpool as title challengers. You would never get Celtic or Rangers struggling in the relegation zone after 8 or 9 games like Liverpool. I would say the Premiership is one of the most competative top leagues in the game.

 

[Mr Tree]

SpiderBee comments on the FA Cup, but not here

 

[SpiderBee]

SpiderBee comments on the FA Cup, but not here

I have a friend (committee member) at Queen's Park FC who did a paper on restructuring football in Scotland and very well thought out it was including a pyramid system and "junior" clubs being included. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Scotland

The Old Firm remain far ahead of the other clubs based on support and finance (although not as wealthy as they used to be). The other clubs rely heavily on matches against the old firm to increase revenue although just about every game featuring them is live on tv.

The best hope for these two is a place in the EPL or some sort of franchised British League. Neither are likely to happen.

Personally speaking, I would like a return to two divisions of 22 (two non league clubs to be promoted) including promotion play offs and a non-league structure below that also with promotion play offs.

 

[TW3Bee]

but their are arguably 6 teams that could win the title if you still count Liverpool as title challengers.

Title challengers in the Championship next season.

 

[Brentford 4 Life]

:scratch:

Im understand that some teams have a lot more money compared to the rest but their are arguably 6 teams that could win the title if you still count Liverpool as title challengers. You would never get Celtic or Rangers struggling in the relegation zone after 8 or 9 games like Liverpool. I would say the Premiership is one of the most competative top leagues in the game.

No way. If Chelsea dont storm the league this season then they have seriously cocked up. No one is in their league not United, City or Arsenal.

 

[Adam]

No way. If Chelsea dont storm the league this season then they have seriously cocked up. No one is in their league not United, City or Arsenal.

I expect dont expect Chelsea to maintain this level all season and Utd will start improving dramatically especially after xmas like they always do and Arsenal are always a threat. I would not right either of them off just yet but I can see your point. What I am suggesting more is that over the coming years and in the past more than just 2 teams will occupy the top 2 positions in the division. Since 1985 their have been 2 different winners in Scotland where as there have been 6 in England. I would confidently guess in the next 10 years we will see more than 2 different clubs when the Premier League.

 

[Markybee]

I just wish they would keep Scottish football off TV and Radio. It's a waste of our time

Sorry Joker

 

[stoney04]

Isn't the Premiership heading in the same direction?

i dont think so, there really isnt a big four anymore, and those that are considered a top side slip up and slip up more than just the once or twice, the reason man u, chelsea and the arsenal are up there year in year out is due to consistancy with either managment or playing staff.

 

[Billy Hunt]

Why don't Rangers and Celtic merge and become Glasgow United?

 

[Brentford 4 Life]

i dont think so, there really isnt a big four anymore, and those that are considered a top side slip up and slip up more than just the once or twice, the reason man u, chelsea and the arsenal are up there year in year out is due to consistancy with either managment or playing staff.

Agree with Arsenal and Man U but Chelsea have had a lot of managers in the past few years.

 

[stoney04]

Agree with Arsenal and Man U but Chelsea have had a lot of managers in the past few years.

thats why i said playing staff to to cover them!

 

[Paul O'Brien]

If you think that's bad, take a look at the Scottish Ladies' Premier Leaguie where Glasgow City and Celtic are locked together with 18 wins and 1 draw (against each other). GC have the lead on Goal Difference since Celtic are only +119 against GC's +154.

Rangers are 7th, by the way.

If you want a team to support, go foe FC Kilmarnock:
F.C. Kilmarnock P19 W 1 D 0 L 18 F 13 A 195 GD -182 Pts3

 

[California Bee]

:scratch:

I understand that some teams have a lot more money compared to the rest but there are arguably six teams that could win the title if you still count Liverpool as title challengers. You would never get Celtic or Rangers struggling in the relegation zone after eight or nine games like Liverpool. I would say the Premiership is one of the most competitive top leagues in the game.

The Premiership is not competitive. More than 80% of the clubs in the Prem at any point in time over the past twenty-five years have absolutely zero chance of winning the title or even aspiring to the top six. That is not competition, that is what is known as an oligarchy. Comparisons with the SPL, which has only twelve clubs, are worthless. The SPL is a duopoly with two clubs from one city so far out of sight that the other clubs feel they are in a different race.

The entire sport worldwide, owners, management, players, fans and media has lost its collective soul to money. It's time that governments forgot treating the game like a sport and recognise that it is an industry and an industry that allows businesses to prevent fair competition. Governments need to bring in legislation outlawing the cornering of all the best talent by the use of wealth and return the football business to one where any club can enter the business with a fair chance of succeeding

 

[GP200]

.......................was it ever credible?????.....................

 

[Inappropriate Smilies Bee]

let Rangers join the Premier League but not Celtic as they wouldn't pass the immigration entry examination for England. Stick Cardiff and Swansea in the Scottish Premier league while we're at it. Many Thanks.

:kiss:

 

[Brain-dead Bee]

The Premiership is not competitive. More than 80% of the clubs in the Prem at any point in time over the past twenty-five years have absolutely zero chance of winning the title or even aspiring to the top six.

I take your general point, but not these figures. With 20 clubs in the Prem, 30% of them end a season in the top 6, so it is an exaggeration to say that 80% don't think of the top 6 (unless 10% get there by accident).

I'd agree that - for the last 10 years at least - probably 15 - no more than 4 teams have had any chance of the title. There have been changes in the identity of those 4: Newcastle and Leeds came and went, Liverpool have now dropped out of that group and Man C have joined it

 

[SpiderBee]

let Rangers join the Premier League but not Celtic as they wouldn't pass the immigration entry examination for England. Stick Cardiff and Swansea in the Scottish Premier league while we're at it. Many Thanks.

:kiss:

A league formed of franchised clubs from Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and Eire might work?

 

[hatfieldbee]

We all know what a cash cow the EPL is, but is the SPL also one in comparison to the SFL? I never read of sponsorship and other deals re SPL like we hear about for EPL. My Scottish club, Falkirk (have relations in the town) seem to struggle financially, as did the other Falkirk club East Stirling, until they sold off their ground Firs Park. Now ground sharing at Stenhousemuir, but as far as I know, no plans for a ground of their own as yet. The benefactor who suddenly pumped money into them was from London!

Ollie Gottskalson used to say that the SPL standard varied from near EPL level at the top, to 3rd division at the bottom. Would imagine that SFL div 3 must be near Conference North/South or lower.

 

[SpiderBee]

We all know what a cash cow the EPL is, but is the SPL also one in comparison to the SFL? I never read of sponsorship and other deals re SPL like we hear about for EPL. My Scottish club, Falkirk (have relations in the town) seem to struggle financially, as did the other Falkirk club East Stirling, until they sold off their ground Firs Park. Now ground sharing at Stenhousemuir, but as far as I know, no plans for a ground of their own as yet. The benefactor who suddenly pumped money into them was from London!

Ollie Gottskalson used to say that the SPL standard varied from near EPL level at the top, to 3rd division at the bottom. Would imagine that SFL div 3 must be near Conference North/South or lower.

I have watched Queen's Park FC many times. The teams are good technically although some of the tackling is robust to say the least. QPFC regularly toured the north west of England and had mixed results against NPL and Conference sides so I would say Conf North/South is about right.

 

[Sweepy]

I have a friend (committee member) at Queen's Park FC who did a paper on restructuring football in Scotland and very well thought out it was including a pyramid system and "junior" clubs being included. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Scotland

The Old Firm remain far ahead of the other clubs based on support and finance (although not as wealthy as they used to be). The other clubs rely heavily on matches against the old firm to increase revenue although just about every game featuring them is live on tv.

The best hope for these two is a place in the EPL or some sort of franchised British League. Neither are likely to happen.

Personally speaking, I would like a return to two divisions of 22 (two non league clubs to be promoted) including promotion play offs and a non-league structure below that also with promotion play offs.

I had thoughts on this. An SPL of 20 and two divisions of 14 or 16 might work too. As in some other countries, Celtic and Rangers could forward 'B' sides, but ones which are not eligible for access to the SPL.

The last 30 years have been Old Firm dominated, but this year seems more ridiculous than ever. Even in matches where one of them have been behind or being held, even if it's getting near to the end of the game, I find that listening to the radio I am almost waiting for the inevitable "let's go over to Celtic Park/Ibrox for news of a late goal". It's become ridiculously predictable and by comparison makes the Premier League in England look ultra-competitive.

 

[Paul O'Brien]

I had thoughts on this. An SPL of 20 and two divisions of 14 or 16 might work too. As in some other countries, Celtic and Rangers could forward 'B' sides, but ones which are not eligible for access to the SPL.

A sensible idea, but that's what happened in the early 1950s, when both Celtic and Rangers (along with many other seniro sides) had reserve teams in Scottish Division C competing with smaller first teams from smaller clubs - all of whom bar Leith Athletic are now in the Scottish League.

Although in principle it should have been miore even, by the time Celtic and Rangers joined, there were in fact only about 4 or 5 non-reserve teams and of those only Brechin won a title. Rangers ended up dominating one division with only Clyde as a consistent challnger(Celtic were in the other - don't ask - which was much more even: in fact Celtic never won it)

In around 1968, Celtic applied to let their reserve team join again (it had Macari, Dalglish, Hay, Connelly, McGrain and several other playerswho went on to good things) but they were turned down.

 

[Beeophile]

Look at the success of Strachan's hogmanay globetrotters at Boro.
The SPL allstars have indicated that the better players in the SPL are of a mid to lower Championship level.
Look at SPL's Beckham, Barry Ferguson, fleeing the Premiership with his tail between his legs.

The SPL has to be realistic and honest with itself and ween itself of the sectarian dollar.

The split makes a mockery of the league with teams finishing below others on less points.
TV rights are all that is keeping the current set up with celtic/rangers v whoever every weekend.

Two divisons of 22 with play offs for promotion and relegation seems the sensible way of going, much like the championship and league1 which has seen an increase in attendance in the last few years.

Giving the second division B teams from celtic, hibs, rangers, hearts etc makes a bit of financial sense for the smaller clubs, but who would they replace?

 

[Idaho Bee]

Why don't Rangers and Celtic merge and become Glasgow United?

Then who would they hate??

 

[Beeophile]

Then who would they hate??

Partick thistle?

 

[Brain-dead Bee]

Not sure that an expanded SPL makes sense. For the 'other' 10 SPL teams an extra game or 2 against the big 2 in a smaller division gets some extra cash and the gap between top and bottom is only a medium-sized chasm.

With 20 teams in there, the smaller clubs get only 2 home games against the big 2 to bring in cash and the gap between top and bottom grows even greater - to the extent that Celtic and Rangers could probably enter their own reserves and finish in the top 15.

I just don't think there is the potential for a meaningful league of Scottish teams only; only around 8 teams can get crowds in 5 figures as far as I can see. 8-10 Scottish teams, plus Cardiff, Swansea, a North Wales team and 4-5 from Ireland (RoI and/or NI depending on policing concerns) might just make up a league, but Cardiff and Swansea might still think the English Championship is preferable.

 

[ptfc bee]

Partick thistle?

 

[eghambee]

Sad when the top two teams have the same points as the teams in 3rd and 4th place put together - and they are only 8 games in!

 

[Inappropriate Smilies Bee]

maybe the winners of the Scottish Premier league should qualify for the Johnson Paint Trophy?

:computer:

 

[TW3Bee]

Why don't Rangers and Celtic merge and become Glasgow United?

 

[Low End Bee]

Ouch!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9146206.stm

That's harsh*.


*Not applicable to Luton. Special case

 

[California Bee]

I take your general point, but not these figures. With 20 clubs in the Prem, 30% of them end a season in the top 6, so it is an exaggeration to say that 80% don't think of the top 6 (unless 10% get there by accident).

I'd agree that - for the last 10 years at least - probably 15 - no more than 4 teams have had any chance of the title. There have been changes in the identity of those 4: Newcastle and Leeds came and went, Liverpool have now dropped out of that group and Man C have joined it

Statistically you make a fair point B-dB. Nevertheless, for a long time now the race for the title has been dominated by Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool. Every year maybe three out of those four have usually shown a clean pair of heels to the rest of the league. My point was that around sixteen of the Premiership teams each year have pretty much known before the season began that they didn't have a prayer of winning or getting the silver or gold. Man City and Spurs may have the money to sniff around the big dogs and may break into the cartel before long but most of the really good players (Kaka etc) won't consider going there until they have won a few trophies.

 

[Sweepy]

10 clubs in the SPL may as well just pack up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9161840.stm

 

[GP200]

.........................another close game for Aberdeen..............................

 

[California Bee]

10 clubs in the SPL may as well just pack up.

They play like they already have done Sweepy.

 

[Mr Tree]

i know an Aberdeen fan. not a proud day.

 

[SpiderBee]

Refs on strike Saturday now!

 

[The Joker]

Good analysis of the 'crisis' in Scottish football...

 

[Markybee]

i know an Aberdeen fan. not a proud day.

Season ticket holder?

 

[Westlad]

Good analysis of the 'crisis' in Scottish football...

He's right, if we had a TV game this weekend that was called off because of a ref strike, I'm not sure Brentford fans would start giving refs more respect.

 

[Mr Tree]

not knowing much, the Celtic chairman's public criticism of the bloke seemed way way way out-of-line. seems an absolutely pathetic state-of-affairs all round

 

[Paul O'Brien]

The trouble is (And I speak here as someone who disagrees strongly with his public criticism of refs) that the Celts have a long history of feeling hard done by by the Scots powers that be, and will jump on any suggestion that they are being cheated. A few years ago, there was certainly an example of what they're complaining about: the Scots FA secretary (I believe it was ) deliberately delayed authorisation for Jorge Cadete: his reason was that as the investigation found out, he was a Rangers fan and wanted to prevent Celtic from signing such a proven goalscorer. I believe that he was sacked.

There's a book called Celtic Paranoia that gives the background - haven't read it though.

It's worth watching the video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i3pXQVm7nc it's posible to watch it and see Celtic diving or see Rangers fouling. However, there are two decisions that I think are incontrovertibly weird. See what you think.

 

[Sweepy]

not knowing much, the Celtic chairman's public criticism of the bloke seemed way way way out-of-line. seems an absolutely pathetic state-of-affairs all round

I don't know a great deal either about this episode, but I have noticed one trend:- Celtic and Rangers have had to work a little harder for the points since the McDonald incident.

Whatever happens, I sense this is an opportunity for a proper overhaul of Scottish football.

 

[bees66]

The weekend Scottish Premier League programme was thrown into confusion after Portuguese officials followed Polish colleagues by returning home... lol sack the fools