New Handball Rule.

marvelous007

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I can't seem to find a thread on on this. After the weekends games, whats your thoughts on this?
 

grutter

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It's stupid.

However, it gives the consistency that all managers and players have said they want from referees in recent years.
 
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marvelous007

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I understand what your saying. However, in my day it was easy to understand "hand to ball and pretty much had to deliberate", and under the elbow. I did really understand how this issue has been evolved on the way it has.
 

detours

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Why did the rule even need changing. Was clear enough – handling the ball needed to be deliberate. Interpreting a player's intent could be tricky, but it was miles better than all this unnatural position stuff.
 
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marvelous007

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Why did the rule even need changing. Was clear enough – handling the ball needed to be deliberate. Interpreting a player's intent could be tricky, but it was miles better than all this unnatural position stuff.
I do agree. Off the top of my head, I remember two clear referee errors (although international games) the "hand of god by Argentina v England/Shilton" and Henry on the line for France v Ireland. These were missed by the refs at the time but nowadays, the rule change has gone too far (and is in danger of ruining the game). I agree with some of the comments by a well known sky sports commentar in the Spurs/Newcastle game.
 

pompeybee

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I think it's the punishment that's the biggest issue here. A penalty and thus a high chance of a goal is disproportionate to the offence. If non-deliberate handball is to be punished, the sanction should be an indirect free kick, analogous to the situation with obstruction - or at least how that used to be interpreted.
 

Ealing Bee

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Why did the rule even need changing. Was clear enough – handling the ball needed to be deliberate. Interpreting a player's intent could be tricky, but it was miles better than all this unnatural position stuff.
My take is this.

Handball requires two elements: Contact and Intent.

With the former it was usually but not always obvious. With the latter it was the ref's judgement.

Clearly the ref cannot get inside the player's head to determine Intent wth absolute certainty, no-one can. But with VAR you can definitively say that contact was/wasn't made, so why not make every contact a foul and award a penalty? That way the subjective element (ref's judgment) is removed.

Meaning that the technology (VAR) is becomng the game's Master instead of its Servant.

Of course this is sacrificing Fairness for the sake of Certainty.

Yet the whole point of Handball for 150 years has been to bolster Fairness by eliminating cheating (i.e. an outfield player deliberately handling the ball).

Crazy.
 

beebopalula

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The greasy pole started with interfering and not interfering with play. Then active and passive. Then intent or no intent. I have sympathy with the concept of reckless but give it a rest please. Who brings in these changes ?
 
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jlove

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Summed up nicely yesterday:
Roy Hodgson said:
"For me the handball rule should be a simple rule. When you deliberately handle the ball to prevent a goal or to get an advantage, it's handball. And when the ball hits you and you can do nothing about it, it's not handball."
 

beebopalula

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Why did the rule even need changing. Was clear enough – handling the baa room with them and they will find something to doll needed to be deliberate. Interpreting a player's intent could be tricky, but it was miles better than all this unnatural position stuff.
It's the football bureaucracy. Fill the room with them and they will find something to do to justify their existence.
 

Lionel Bart-At

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It's stupid.

However, it gives the consistency that all managers and players have said they want from referees in recent years.
They achieved this with last season's law. Not ideal, but was, as I say, consistent, and much fairer than this ridiculous decision at Spurs today. I was actually reasonably happy with the status quo last season. Does it absolutely have to be tweaked every single season? It's never gonna be perfect. When it's working OK, just bloody leave it be.
 
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Stanley

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It's a farce and fast turning the PL into a lottery instead of a test of skill and team performance.

In a way though the PL has only got itself to blame. Managers and pundits have been viscously blasting the officials for their decision making ( more often than not unfairly) for year after year. As a result they refs have looked for ways to take away any doubt on their part for decision making on incidents involving handball etc. . The new handball rule and VAR has done that for them so they can now deflect criticism and say it is the technology and/or the rules and not them. For this reason I think they will be reluctant to change much.
 

TW1Bee

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The way i see it is that VAR particularly with the handball and as it seems to be a new thing this season it gives the ref a second chance to make his decision. I don't remember them having to look at a monitor to decide as this used to be done at Stockley Park (,wherever that is). Decisions in Football since its time began was always made on the spur of the moment and on instinct and by humans. It always caused controversy, argument and debate but we loved it and got over it.
 

hanworthbee

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Summed up nicely yesterday:
I dont agree with this completely as if you jump in the air and hands all over the place and the ball hits your arm its handball...may be accidental but it’s handball imo
 

Banana

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I dont agree with this completely as if you jump in the air and hands all over the place and the ball hits your arm its handball...may be accidental but it’s handball imo
How are you meant to jump without hands being away from the body?
 

Rob-BEE

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I think it smacks of a lack of understanding of actually playing football by the people/bodies that run the game. I believe it used to be "unnatural position" was the interpretation and I think that worked, as long as the referee's could be trusted to judge that correctly. Looking at the pens over the weekend, the Maupay one was "unnatural", the ones against Palace and Spurs were not.
 

Banana

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I think it smacks of a lack of understanding of actually playing football by the people/bodies that run the game. I believe it used to be "unnatural position" was the interpretation and I think that worked, as long as the referee's could be trusted to judge that correctly. Looking at the pens over the weekend, the Maupay one was "unnatural", the ones against Palace and Spurs were not.
Why was Maupay's unnatural. Look at high jumpers, hands are over head in order to drive down and gain height.
 

Lionel Bart-At

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Why was Maupay's unnatural. Look at high jumpers, hands are over head in order to drive down and gain height.
I presume you are playing devil's advocate with the Maupay incident?
 

Bangor Bee

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As said above, it's turning games into a lottery. I assume someone in the FIFA bureaucrcy was thinking of another way to increase the number of goals/excitement -- in fact it's ruining games. Action is needed now; clubs need to speak up loudly.
 

Rob-BEE

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Why was Maupay's unnatural. Look at high jumpers, hands are over head in order to drive down and gain height.
Why are you comparing a footballer to a high jumper? Have a look at all the headed goals over the weekend and tell me how many jumped with their arms flailed above their head.

I guess another way of putting it would be "avoidable". Maupay could have avoided handling the ball in that situation. There was no way realistically the Spurs or Palace player could have avoided the ball hitting their hand/arm.
 

JCMcBee

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....watching defenders morphing into penguins will become commonplace...it's madness...created by madmen.
 

Ealing Bee

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They achieved this with last season's law. Not ideal, but was, as I say, consistent, and much fairer than this ridiculous decision at Spurs today. I was actually reasonably happy with the status quo last season. Does it absolutely have to be tweaked every single season? It's never gonna be perfect. When it's working OK, just bloody leave it be.
Actually they discussed this on MOTD2 last night.

Apparently the new handball Law for 2020/21 is worded the same as it was when first introduced for 2019/20, but the difference is this. In 2019/20, FIFA also added a protocol (i.e. interpretation guide that isn't in the actual wording) to say it should be a penalty if the arm was in an unnatural position etc, even if accidental.

This protocol was adopted by all the main leagues except in England (and rest of UK?), where PGMOL (Professional Game Match Officials Limited, the body responsible for match officials in English professional football) declined to apply it.

However they then faced such pressure from FIFA to have the same application all round the world, that we caved in for this season.

Tellingly, in 2019/20, there were 19 penalties for Handball in the PL. There were 48 in La Liga and 57 in Serie A.

Absolute shambles. :mad:
 

Lionel Bart-At

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Actually they discussed this on MOTD2 last night.

Apparently the new handball Law for 2020/21 is worded the same as it was when first introduced for 2019/20, but the difference is this. In 2019/20, FIFA also added a protocol (i.e. interpretation guide that isn't in the actual wording) to say it should be a penalty if the arm was in an unnatural position etc, even if accidental.

This protocol was adopted by all the main leagues except in England (and rest of UK?), where PGMOL (Professional Game Match Officials Limited, the body responsible for match officials in English professional football) declined to apply it.

However they then faced such pressure from FIFA to have the same application all round the world, that we caved in for this season.

Tellingly, in 2019/20, there were 19 penalties for Handball in the PL. There were 48 in La Liga and 57 in Serie A.

Absolute shambles. :mad:
Thanks for that. Ridiculous. Just when we seemed to have found the best of a bad job.
 

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The thing that's struck me is the removal of the need for the referee to interpret whether or not it was accidental. They've done this by introducing the concept of the arm being in an unnatural position, but surely, that is open to interpretation?

Suppose an attacking player absolutely wellies it and it heads straight towards a defender's face and he puts his hands in the way to protect himself, what would be the decision? I'd argue that protecting your face is an instinctive reaction and, in such circumstances, it's a perfectly natural position for the defender's hands to be.
 

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Steve Bruce voiced his opinion that even though Newcastle benefitted he was against the way the ruling is now being interpreted . Meanwhile his player Andy Carrol was screaming for a penalty. Those complaining it was accidental also fall over screaming for penalties when a defender farts in their general direction. Players, managers and coaches are complicit in screwing up the game we love.
 

Paul O'Brien

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Why was Maupay's unnatural. Look at high jumpers, hands are over head in order to drive down and gain height.
Although high jumpers today usually jump over the bar head first. Not an ideal action for a centre forward on the whole perhaps. I'd rather they stayed on the field than went over the bar. :)
 

'Ayes B

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Can you imagine a player cutting in from the wing... The defender is just inside the box... His arms are out to force the winger nearer to the touchline, by giving him a longer distance to run around. The winger debates going to the left or to the right, but there is no one waiting in the box so he decides to chip the ball at the defenders arm and to go for the penalty
 

LboroBee

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I dont agree with this completely as if you jump in the air and hands all over the place and the ball hits your arm its handball...may be accidental but it’s handball imo
??? I disagree, it’s simply the laws of physics and how humans move...

they’ve made the offence to own a pair of non detachable arms.
 

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