Racist Abuse on Social Media.

psg150

Active member
Joined
12 Jan 2014
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
200
Location
Hanwell
Today I wake up feeling really low. Yes, it wasn't a vintage performance last night and sure we probably did just enough to win but that all fades into insignificance when you think about what Ivan and his family must be feeling this morning. I think we would all like to wish them well as they have to deal with this crap again. As fans, we ALL need to loudly call it out and if anyone knows who it is they need to be shopped. End of. May not be a Brentford fan but it really doesn't matter. What matters is how we as a fan community respond.
 
OP
P

psg150

Active member
Joined
12 Jan 2014
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
200
Location
Hanwell
Will never ever change untill people have to verify who they are when setting up social media accounts.
Maybe not but the attitudes need to shift. Sure, social media companies need to do more but so do we. Blaming the vehicle for the message is an abdication of our responsibility. It is not loudly condemning the racist behaviour or the people behind it.
 

LingfieldBee

Active member
Joined
15 May 2007
Messages
3,742
Reaction score
399
Location
St Marys Twickenham Uni!
Maybe not but the attitudes need to shift. Sure, social media companies need to do more but so do we. Blaming the vehicle for the message is an abdication of our responsibility. It is not loudly condemning the racist behaviour or the people behind it.
Totally agree, but it's a complete social and culture change that's needed. A quick easy fix is verified social media accounts. To eliminate it from society will take education and culture change which will take generations but yes needs to happen. But the immediate easy win is verified accounts.
 

Invipai

Active member
Joined
29 Jul 2011
Messages
7,059
Reaction score
543
Location
Ealing, London
Post a racist message on your channel and post a clip from a football game...see which gets taken down quicker.

There are honestly questionable aspects of having everyone verified, I was reading some discussion about it 6 months ago and some people want to stay anonymous for a reason. They've been targeted in real life in the past, they have an online identity that is more open that their real one (i.e. they're openly gay or trans online, but keep it hidden from strict family in reality).

However I think it would be good if anyone *could* verify themselves if those chose, and famous people/anyone else could filter content to only see replies/anything from those who have verified themselves. That way people can still exist in their communities online, but celebrities can filter replies only to those who are accountable for their words. It would be a little excluding to some people, but I think that has to be the way forward for now.

The social media sites need to do more though, but LingfieldBee nails it on the head. It's not profitable for them to do so, therefore they won't unless they have to. It would likely require many advertisers joining forces to say they'll stop advertising on the platforms until they take action, but honestly that doesn't feel particularly close.
 
Last edited:

Untouchable

Once called a bastard by a Judge
Joined
5 May 2014
Messages
3,189
Reaction score
2,654
This is well worth a read and a watch and discusses some of the problems of mandatory ID verification



Why ID-linked accounts can be problematic
There have been suggestions that social media companies should require a form of identification from any users opening accounts, to prevent anonymous abusive accounts being created, or abusive content being shared through pseudonyms.

Madzingira says the use of government-issued identification can become problematic, especially for people in ethnic minorities who do not have access to necessary documentation but want to engage with the platform.

"I totally understand the frustration that comes with [clamour for IDs]. I am Zimbabwean, I didn't have an ID until I was around 18 or 19. There is a certain level of privilege that comes along with having an ID, and that is just in Zimbabwe. If you think about the UK or the US and access to ID, it is more often women of colour who do not have access to that type of government paperwork.

"It would suddenly create rules which stop these people being on the platform. We would disproportionately affect not just women of colour in large economies, but people of colour generally across the world.
 

Nickabee

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
532
Reaction score
120
The really unfortunate thing here is the low life that are doing this are satisfied and motivated by the publicity regarding the upset they are causing. So called social media ( I don’t use it or see what’s social about it really ) seems to be the modern equivalent of graffiti . I don’t understand why the equivalent of spams filters can’t be used in short term but is really the matter for police and Facebook etc. I think it should be tested in the courts that they have a duty of care to stop these messages. As I understand it these are uninvited messages so the company facilitating the delivery has access to see the message before it reaches the destination.
 

wanderer paul

https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Joined
28 Oct 2002
Messages
50,651
Reaction score
1,831
Location
Brentford
This is well worth a read and a watch and discusses some of the problems of mandatory ID verification



Why ID-linked accounts can be problematic
There have been suggestions that social media companies should require a form of identification from any users opening accounts, to prevent anonymous abusive accounts being created, or abusive content being shared through pseudonyms.

Madzingira says the use of government-issued identification can become problematic, especially for people in ethnic minorities who do not have access to necessary documentation but want to engage with the platform.

"I totally understand the frustration that comes with [clamour for IDs]. I am Zimbabwean, I didn't have an ID until I was around 18 or 19. There is a certain level of privilege that comes along with having an ID, and that is just in Zimbabwe. If you think about the UK or the US and access to ID, it is more often women of colour who do not have access to that type of government paperwork.

"It would suddenly create rules which stop these people being on the platform. We would disproportionately affect not just women of colour in large economies, but people of colour generally across the world.
That’s one of the sad reasons. The world is sh*t and totally unfair. Especially in this day and age.

Still, it’s something that won’t change until some form of ID verification comes into law to be able to post on these platforms.

You can shout down, block, arrest, fine and/or stick inside those arseholes who do such things, who hide behind anonymous names etc. But it won’t change attitudes to some anytime soon. You’ll still get posts like the ones footballers and noteworthy people have been subjected to (racially, sexually, derogatory etc etc) until something does change for the better.
 
Last edited:
OP
P

psg150

Active member
Joined
12 Jan 2014
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
200
Location
Hanwell
These are all good points about the roles and responsibilities that social media companies have in dealing with this. However, right now, its a total distraction. I'll say again, stop blaming the vehicle, condem the abuse and the abusers. They and their hateful attitudes are the root of the problem.
 

wanderer paul

https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Joined
28 Oct 2002
Messages
50,651
Reaction score
1,831
Location
Brentford
These are all good points about the roles and responsibilities that social media companies have in dealing with this. However, right now, its a total distraction. I'll say again, stop blaming the vehicle, condem the abuse and the abusers. They and their hateful attitudes are the root of the problem.
You don’t know who they are though. 🤷

They hide, behind anonymous monickers, and so you cannot do anything about the problem.

As I said, a pointless exercise.

The “vehicles”, as you put it, are partly to blame!

No vehicle, ie no WWW or apps, no disgusting abuse to all and sundry. Just within the abusers little small minded group of people.
 

Silly Hat

Active member
Joined
25 Jan 2002
Messages
3,786
Reaction score
1,087
Meanwhile, this platform has people who think the abuse of players on social media is a right laugh and if people don’t want to be a victim of vicious online trolling then they should “grow some”, “chill out” and stay off social media in the first place - classic victim blaming. The same guy added multiple laughing emojis to his post about this.

If the GPG is in-step with reducing the space for anonymous knobs to abuse people online, or think that the issue is a bit of a giggle, then a mod might wish to look through last night’s match report thread and take the appropriate action.
 

Banana

Very, very seldomly incorrect
Joined
7 Apr 2000
Messages
73,803
Reaction score
4,316
Location
London
If the GPG is in-step with reducing the space for anonymous knobs to abuse people online, or think that the issue is a bit of a giggle, then a mod might wish to look through last night’s match report thread and take the appropriate action.
You already did that.
 

Houghton Bee

Well-known member
Joined
10 Jul 2001
Messages
13,542
Reaction score
508
Location
Houghton Regis
It cant be beyond the capabilities of tech giants like Facebook and Twitter to create an automated system where you have to verify your id to use their platforms, you can still use whatever username publically to hide your identity as per the examples given above, and store the details securely so if someone posts the sort of filth that IT & BM received the police have their details within minutes and the knock on the door done within a couple of hours.

It just cant be impossible. Although I suspect the will to really combat this crap just isnt there.
 

Banana

Very, very seldomly incorrect
Joined
7 Apr 2000
Messages
73,803
Reaction score
4,316
Location
London
It cant be beyond the capabilities of tech giants like Facebook and Twitter to create an automated system where you have to verify your id to use their platforms, you can still use whatever username publically to hide your identity as per the examples given above, and store the details securely so if someone posts the sort of filth that IT & BM received the police have their details within minutes and the knock on the door done within a couple of hours.

It just cant be impossible. Although I suspect the will to really combat this crap just isnt there.
It certainly isn't impossible as there are Identity Validation processes online now....for the UK at least. The problem comes when someone in Country XYZ registers. However there is nothing to stop the social media companies preventing such unverified accounts interacting with verified accounts (or even mentioning them), except money of course - and that is the crux of the problem

Someone said above try posting a clip of a football match and a racist comment and see which one gets taken down quicker. And it's correct and shows where priorities lie for the SM companies.

The SM companies need football and footballers on their platform. The PFA/FA/EFL should all agree to come off such platforms until the issue is fixed -except they won't of course because, again, money is too important to them - much more important than stopping racism. And you can take that fact to the bank.
 

Ealing Bee

Well-known member
Joined
5 Jun 2002
Messages
10,465
Reaction score
1,120
Location
Now Chiswick (proud to be a YIMBY)
In the end, the big digital companies will only bow to pressure.

And if it doesn't come from governments (don't hold your breath), then it has to come from the consumer.

And football in all its many forms (clubs, leagues, players, fans etc), is a HUGE consumer.

I don't imagine it will ever happen, but wouldn't it be nice if the whole of football put the tech companies on notice that if they don't come up with a solution of their own, everyone involved with the game will stage a complete boycott for the first week of next season i.e no usage of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc by the FA, PL, EFL, PFA, clubs, players and the rest.

Instead they would only communicate via their own websites and the traditional media (newspapers, TV, radio etc).

Then see if Big Tech continues to insist "We're doing our best etc"

EDIT: Just seen final para of Banana's above post. Sadly, it sounds correct. :(
 
OP
P

psg150

Active member
Joined
12 Jan 2014
Messages
1,834
Reaction score
200
Location
Hanwell
You don’t know who they are though. 🤷

They hide, behind anonymous monickers, and so you cannot do anything about the problem.

As I said, a pointless exercise.

The “vehicles”, as you put it, are partly to blame!

No vehicle, ie no WWW or apps, no disgusting abuse to all and sundry. Just within the abusers little small minded group of people.
It doesn't matter who they are. Fan groups and communities, such as this need to be outspoken and clear in their condemnation so these people are further marginalised and eventually disappear. Too often, these debates lead to 'what can we do?' and 'it's no worse at Brentford than anywhere else.' type comments. The answer is you can do something, however small. Message your support to the victim, write to the club, condem the racists and the racism publicly on a forum such as this. We all have a responsibility.
 

wanderer paul

https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Joined
28 Oct 2002
Messages
50,651
Reaction score
1,831
Location
Brentford
I believe they all are.

Once again, it comes down to the social media sites owners and, also clearly mentioned above, the governing bodies who need to show more.

Why don’t they all come off these platforms?

Maybe they need to take the lead to start a change?
 

Ace Face

Well-known member
Joined
17 Jan 2001
Messages
14,574
Reaction score
157
Location
West Stand Alliance & Brentford Curry Element
With regards abuse in general towards BFC coaches and players.
For me abuse is abuse, be it racial or whatever.
For all those who abuse and somehow pass it off as venting their frustration at not winning, just think "would I say this to the persons face".
I think only an absolute moron would go up to a player and say you are sh*te or you were crap last night and the same goes for the coaches.
So why post it on social media? The GPG is quite tame if you want to look at the snidey comments elsewhere.
For me each week, during our most successful period in decades, the fun of supporting BFC is slowly diminishing. Due to a large number of BFC fans being unable to accept a level of failure that other fans would die for.
Of course I sorround myself with other BFC fans who think along similar lines and I now stay away from the social media everything is crap at BFC diatribe, but if you don't enjoy and support the club fighting to go up now, when things are going to be crap you will be even more frustrated and angry.

So when will you enjoy supporting BFC? When we are mathematically promoted to the prem? Will you then be unhappy that you can't get to games due to SKY kick offs?

These are incredible times to be supporting BFC, not an incredibly exciting opportunity to abuse, blame or demand success.
 

Mark H

Active member
Joined
4 May 2000
Messages
5,722
Reaction score
228
Location
In the land of the Cherries
A possible solution
It is possible using natural language processing to analyse posts to dictate the tone of the message. It is easy here given the words and icons used to filter this out as racist. Users (eg. IT and BM) could then have an option on their accounts to auto block offensive/racist DMs. This was a DM.
For posts tagging you in the system would be more complex but equally possible.

Instagram is owned by Facebook so the same software engine could be rolled out across both platforms. This is a more practical solution that Id verified accounts which IMO is a non-starter.
 

Isleworth_Bee

Well-known member
Joined
18 Jan 2005
Messages
22,639
Reaction score
1,235
Location
Basingstoke
Heres a question(s) (and i know they shouldnt have to).

But why dont players and fans alike come off the platform altogether? Twitter being the worst.

If the majority of us on here know its a vile place for all this stuff then why do we stay signed up to it and use it?

Again sticky ground but why dont the club try to persuade the players to come off it? Cant the players make it private so these scum bags have no access?
Could we be the first club to encourage out players to not use it? Why doesnt the club come off it? Is there that much of a difference in marketing when it comes to it? Make a statement!!! Like Henry it will be heard if enough people or clubs do it.

I know it makes these vile people think they have won but IMO it wont change until the users make a change, which IMO would be deleting ones account.

Im not on Twitter and cant understand why anyone would want to be. I never hear anything but negativity surrounding that platform.
 

Simon W

Active member
Joined
28 Dec 2000
Messages
5,037
Reaction score
573
Location
.. a little village in Herefordshire
Take the clubs Instagram account for example .. I am really surprised the club do not delete expletive messages from there and block the obvious trolls.
The same account that sent the racist messages to Ivan Toney also sent the racist emojis on one of the clubs posts from Tuesday night and they were still there yesterday morning, why were they not deleted earlier?
Who is responsible for monitoring the clubs social media platforms?
Maybe it’s time the club turn off the comments on a lot of their Instagram posts rather than have to see all the expletive comments
 

Brentford Bob

Well-known member
Joined
5 Apr 2000
Messages
10,899
Reaction score
272
Location
Chandlers Ford, Hants.
Take the clubs Instagram account for example .. I am really surprised the club do not delete expletive messages from there and block the obvious trolls.
The same account that sent the racist messages to Ivan Toney also sent the racist emojis on one of the clubs posts from Tuesday night and they were still there yesterday morning, why were they not deleted earlier?
Who is responsible for monitoring the clubs social media platforms?
Maybe it’s time the club turn off the comments on a lot of their Instagram posts rather than have to see all the expletive comments
I reported racist abuse directed at JDS and the England U21 team that was on the club’s Instagram feed and they didn’t delete it for DAYS.
Instagram were fine with it, too.

7D3623FE-39E0-4A87-A7E1-CDA33A18643B.png
 

Untouchable

Once called a bastard by a Judge
Joined
5 May 2014
Messages
3,189
Reaction score
2,654

Banana

Very, very seldomly incorrect
Joined
7 Apr 2000
Messages
73,803
Reaction score
4,316
Location
London

nathanbee

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2009
Messages
467
Reaction score
132
Well done Swansea
Agreed. Needs all clubs and players to do the same.
It would also be interesting if clubs and players refused to give pre & post match interviews to Sky, BT, BBC and newspapers for a month to see how they react. If the sports, broadcast and print media withdrew their advertising from certain SM platforms, how quickly would they react?
 

Silly Hat

Active member
Joined
25 Jan 2002
Messages
3,786
Reaction score
1,087
Take the clubs Instagram account for example .. I am really surprised the club do not delete expletive messages from there and block the obvious trolls.
The same account that sent the racist messages to Ivan Toney also sent the racist emojis on one of the clubs posts from Tuesday night and they were still there yesterday morning, why were they not deleted earlier?
Who is responsible for monitoring the clubs social media platforms?
Maybe it’s time the club turn off the comments on a lot of their Instagram posts rather than have to see all the expletive comments
This and Brentford Bob’s post: the management of Brentford’s social media platforms needs a thorough review and different people put in charge of it. They happily leave abusive stuff on there for days/weeks. I’m not even sure if it is moderated and looked at in an effective way tbh. My takeaway from all this is the club itself isn’t serious about the issue.

Example: a few weeks ago some clown posted something racist on Toney’s Twitter account. I phoned the club to inform them. You get put through to a long list of options with nothing about social media, and obviously there’s no ability to speak to a human. I opted therefore for the media operation. All you get there is a message to email Chris Wickham.

Not good enough IMHO.
 

Simon W

Active member
Joined
28 Dec 2000
Messages
5,037
Reaction score
573
Location
.. a little village in Herefordshire
If Swansea and their players choose to boycott social media for a week then that’s up to them but the only people they are punishing are their genuine fans. Fake racist accounts and trolls won’t give a toss and just pick on another club and other players until they start posting again.
With regard to our club, the social media platforms need to be policed constantly. How can it be right that the f word and other indecent comments can be left there for everyone to read on the Instagram account.
Why are rival fans and trolls allowed to leave indecent messages, these accounts should be blocked and messages deleted straight away
A Norwich fan has been trolling on the clubs Instagram account for weeks and does the same to other clubs, why is he not blocked?
 

Ealing Bee

Well-known member
Joined
5 Jun 2002
Messages
10,465
Reaction score
1,120
Location
Now Chiswick (proud to be a YIMBY)
If Swansea and their players choose to boycott social media for a week then that’s up to them but the only people they are punishing are their genuine fans.
"Punishing"?

It's hardly as if anyone is being deprived of an essential human right, is it?

Esp when there a million other means of communicating with fans eg club website, emails and texts, TV, radio and newspaper etc.
 

Simon W

Active member
Joined
28 Dec 2000
Messages
5,037
Reaction score
573
Location
.. a little village in Herefordshire
"Punishing"?

It's hardly as if anyone is being deprived of an essential human right, is it?

Esp when there a million other means of communicating with fans eg club website, emails and texts, TV, radio and newspaper etc.

ok Ealing Bee .. punishing was not the right word .. but I’m sure everyone understood what I was trying to say
 

hanworthbee

Well-known member
Joined
13 Jun 2005
Messages
27,652
Reaction score
205
Location
Ashford
Good for them but needs someone like man United or Liverpool or real Madrid etc for it to have any proper exposure or benefit
 

nathanbee

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2009
Messages
467
Reaction score
132
If Swansea and their players choose to boycott social media for a week then that’s up to them but the only people they are punishing are their genuine fans. Fake racist accounts and trolls won’t give a toss and just pick on another club and other players until they start posting again.
With regard to our club, the social media platforms need to be policed constantly. How can it be right that the f word and other indecent comments can be left there for everyone to read on the Instagram account.
Why are rival fans and trolls allowed to leave indecent messages, these accounts should be blocked and messages deleted straight away
A Norwich fan has been trolling on the clubs Instagram account for weeks and does the same to other clubs, why is he not blocked?
Genuine fans still have the Official Site and fans forums.
FF's like this one are largely self-policing.
 

Simon W

Active member
Joined
28 Dec 2000
Messages
5,037
Reaction score
573
Location
.. a little village in Herefordshire
Genuine fans still have the Official Site and fans forums.
FF's like this one are largely self-policing.
Ok what I was trying to say was this .. I don’t think it will matter a jot if Swansea and players boycott social media . This will not stop racists .. just like taking the knee for the last 10 months and media campaigns it’s done nothing . Report - delete - block that’s the only thing clubs and players can do
 

nathanbee

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2009
Messages
467
Reaction score
132
Ok what I was trying to say was this .. I don’t think it will matter a jot if Swansea and players boycott social media . This will not stop racists .. just like taking the knee for the last 10 months and media campaigns it’s done nothing . Report - delete - block that’s the only thing clubs and players can do
Agreed. It will take a lot of joined up thinking and joined up action from Broadcasters, media, government, the football community etc t bring about change.
 

A Real Mysteron

Active member
Joined
13 Apr 2009
Messages
8,101
Reaction score
1,220
Well done Swansea
I hope Planet Swans doesn’t join in. Correctly predicting their defeats is the only thing that’s currently cheering me up during our indifferent form.
 

Mikey Bee

Active member
Joined
12 Apr 2000
Messages
3,738
Reaction score
172
Location
Ermmm.....Pass ?
If all EPL and EFL clubs took a consolidated stance it would send a message to the platforms and, crucially, the advertisers. You can't underestimate the advertising $ millions of eyeballs looking at football content every day generate to the likes of Twitter and Instagram. It might just force them to take this seriously and maybe consider alternatives (i.e. a verified platform running alongside their current offerings).
 

hobbsy

Optimist
Joined
23 Apr 2005
Messages
16,637
Reaction score
757
Location
KT3 New Malden
If all EPL and EFL clubs took a consolidated stance it would send a message to the platforms and, crucially, the advertisers. You can't underestimate the advertising $ millions of eyeballs looking at football content every day generate to the likes of Twitter and Instagram. It might just force them to take this seriously and maybe consider alternatives (i.e. a verified platform running alongside their current offerings).
It would help but I think you'd need the broadcasters too (fat chance).
 

horshambees

Active member
Joined
7 Nov 2010
Messages
9,606
Reaction score
311
Location
Warnham,West Sussex
I reported racist abuse directed at JDS and the England U21 team that was on the club’s Instagram feed and they didn’t delete it for DAYS.
Instagram were fine with it, too.

View attachment 24747
I called the outgoing President of the USA a c**t and Facebook were going to lynch me.
Double standards.
I pushed it on Twitter too.
 

BaildonBee

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2017
Messages
949
Reaction score
228
A boycott won't stop the racist abuse or any other general abuse but it will be uncomfortable for the social media companies and may be the start of some action - particularly if the advertisers jump on board. Why do social media posts have to be instant? Why not insert an automated moderation process triggered by profanity (including the use of ***). It might be my age but I do not think it acceptable for anyone to call anyone a c**t , on social media - whatever their politics or beliefs. Zero tolerance for me.
 

hitchinb

Active member
Joined
13 Feb 2006
Messages
1,526
Reaction score
151
Location
Hitchin
The big tech companies can sort this but they will only do so if they start feeling the pinch. It needs the FA, PL and EFL here and their equivalents abroad to ask players to withdraw their accounts en masse. I understand that they may not be able to/should not tell individuals what to do in their private capacities (though I bet plenty of contracts give clubs power over players' private lives) but they can require them to close club sponsored accounts. This may be irritating for social media addicted fans but it's a small price to pay if forces the likes of Twitter to take their responsibilities seriously.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom