Post Match Thread Stoke 3-2 Brentford

BFC1997

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Wrong combination of personnel and formation in the first half.

Goode and Sorensen are solid young defenders - but never suited to playing as wide centre backs. Dalsgaard, unfortunately, looks past his physical peak and playing as a wing back was beyond him. Comfortable for Stoke and they easily deserved their 2 goal lead.

Second half was completely different. Back to 4-3-3, we controlled it. But by this stage the game had a predictable pattern and Stoke hit that killer third on the counter attack. Must say, it was an excellent goal from their young forward Campbell.

Once we went 4-4-2 and they took Campbell off, we were the only team in it but 3-0 is too much of a gap to bridge. We gave it a go though and Forss was excellent, made the scoreline far less embarrassing than the first half performance warranted.

Frank really needs to shoulder responsibility for this. A tactical experiment that failed.

A big concern as well, that we conceded no more than 2 goals in a game for all of last season, and we’ve already conceded 4 and 3 in games this season.

Must bounce back now and beat Luton.
 

Isleworth_Bee

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Wrong combination of personnel and formation in the first half.

Goode and Sorensen are solid young defenders - but never suited to playing as wide centre backs. Dalsgaard, unfortunately, looks past his physical peak and playing as a wing back was beyond him. Comfortable for Stoke and they easily deserved their 2 goal lead.

Second half was completely different. Back to 4-3-3, we controlled it. But by this stage the game had a predictable pattern and Stoke hit that killer third on the counter attack. Must say, it was an excellent goal from their young forward Campbell.

Once we went 4-4-2 and they took Campbell off, we were the only team in it but 3-0 is too much of a gap to bridge. We gave it a go though and Forss was excellent, made the scoreline far less embarrassing than the first half performance warranted.

Frank really needs to shoulder responsibility for this. A tactical experiment that failed.

A big concern as well, that we conceded no more than 2 goals in a game for all of last season, and we’ve already conceded 4 and 3 in games this season.

Must bounce back now and beat Luton.
Nailed it. Worrying thing is 1) why is he experimenting?!?!?! 2) Why is he going so defensive.
 

Kingston Bee

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Nailed it. Worrying thing is 1) why is he experimenting?!?!?! 2) Why is he going so defensive.
Probably based on the players available, and also what the game was like last season. Think we tried to play a more tighter, defensive game, unfortunately it did not come off. Also a bit of rotation to freshen things up, did not work out.
 

Norfolk Bee

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Just seen highlights and second goal DR could have done better and probably should have kept it out deflection and all. Stoke's third, I would think he might have got to it on another day, maybe not. First goal of course horrendous "I thought you were marking him" and not very clever.
 
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From what I have seen so far this season, I must say the manager has a large role in the losses so far. It was a big mistake formation wise and that lead to the loss tonight. I don't know why he changed the formation. they are pressing up high, they have strong forwards from what I've seen and you should no play a formation like that.

There was zero creativity from the build-up in the first half of what I saw. No reachability to the midfield and the backline and midfield were disconnected joints which they could not stand on. I think the manager doesn't really know how to use Ghoddos yet apart from knowing he's got a good shot and he's got to stay outside of the box or position himself as such to be able to shoot.

Very much backwards passing and little forward creative passing. Didn't see anyone wanting or willing to take up the role of getting close to the backline and try to distribute the ball fast and accurate more than a handful of times. TF really needs to stick to a winning formation (the one used in the second half) and put some fire up the player's asses in the midfield because a lot has to be done.. fight for the ball, staying focused, giving it all... I hope TF realizes his mistake since the player they wanted to bad isn't really being utilized right either.

Anyway, sorry to see points being dropped but maybe that is needed to wake them up now... they count the points at the end of the season and that is what's going to count. I am hopeful for a stronger return but schedules aren't really helping either, with international friendlies coming up soon.
 
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Well, that was certainly an instructive exercise, although why TF wanted to experiment so much in the first half is a mystery. I guess the main question arising is whether we revert to our usual 433 or whether we should play both Toney and Forss in a 442. On that showing, it will be hard to leave Forss out of the team - he certainly knows where the net is.
I don't often question TF but he was ultimately responsible for points dropped.
 

bee good

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'Bit of a cock up on the tactical front' as Major Jimmy Anderson would say. Disappointing as we should have got a point out of that but it does seem to be a jinx ground.
 

AB

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In pre-corona days I’d have probably made a spur of the moment decision to drive down to watch that. Quite glad to have missed it!

The experimental line up looked worrying but then again I thought that ahead of the Southampton game. So I think TF and the players have earned the right to try something different, even if it is easy for us to say I told you so when it doesn’t work. Was losing this 3-2 worse than the 1-0 last season where on the back of 8 straight wins, knowing a win would have us with one foot in the PL and with our stars all in place we offered little? I didn’t see it so maybe it was. But that we did find a different way to claw two goals back and that despite the error of our set up in the first half, at least the second goal was one Raya would normally have saved, suggests that we’ve got more about us once we settle on the right approach to difficult games.

Doing that means sometimes experimenting and sometimes failing. TF is still quite a junior manager and has admitted that early season he isn’t always sure of exactly what the players can do in different set ups. Maybe this is the final nail in the coffin for 3CBs and the inadvertent fillip for the unfashionable 442 as a plan B. I hope and think they’ll learn from this. I’d much rather that than to be wedded to 433 regardless of its effectiveness against teams designed to stifle it.
 

WARFIELD BEE

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Well, that was certainly an instructive exercise, although why TF wanted to experiment so much in the first half is a mystery. I guess the main question arising is whether we revert to our usual 433 or whether we should play both Toney and Forss in a 442. On that showing, it will be hard to leave Forss out of the team - he certainly knows where the net is.
I don't often question TF but he was ultimately responsible for points dropped.
Seemed to me TF went with 3 CB's to counter Fletcher (who always seems to score against us), and then none of them bothered to cover him,
that and Keith ##### Stroud who never seems to give us anything HD was dragged down in the area for one.
 

Les Beeavinu

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Seemed to me TF went with 3 CB's to counter Fletcher (who always seems to score against us), and then none of them bothered to cover him,
that and Keith ##### Stroud who never seems to give us anything HD was dragged down in the area for one.
I don't think that was the reason, I think it was lack of bodies in midfield ahead of a hectic schedule. It made sense imo.
 

grutter

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Still doesn't answer why no one picked up the danger man.
I think simply because it was a backline that was both unfamiliar with each other, and in an unfamiliar formation, making them unsure of each others' jobs & who would pick up who. Presumably they trained for this, but it wasn't enough. I agree with Les that on paper, the change of formation made sense given the shortage of midfielders, but it seems the personnel were not up to it.
 

jbee

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I hope neither Emiliano nor Baptiste have serious injuries, TF sounds a bit down about midfield options in his post-match interview.

 

Simon C

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I don't think that was the reason, I think it was lack of bodies in midfield ahead of a hectic schedule. It made sense imo.
Leaving Janelt exposed with in midfield so soon after joining didn't make sense though. Felt like overthinking, if we play our normal and lose due to fitness or being outplayed I think we'd live with it.
 

WARFIELD BEE

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I think simply because it was a backline that was both unfamiliar with each other, and in an unfamiliar formation, making them unsure of each others' jobs & who would pick up who. Presumably they trained for this, but it wasn't enough. I agree with Les that on paper, the change of formation made sense given the shortage of midfielders, but it seems the personnel were not up to it.
The midfield coped ok when we made changes.
 

Doovster

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On paper I thought the first half formation looked solid. In reality we were disjointed, with gaps between our lines, the wing backs not knowing whether to attack or defend, the midfield two overrun and Toney isolated. In addition Canos and Ghoddos not in the game.

So I put this one down to good intentions from Thomas, probably and partly due to the available players, which massively backfired. I hope not to see this formation again and we stick to what we know with the usual 433.
 

grutter

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The midfield coped ok when we made changes.
Yes, because we changed formation too. And Thomas would have wanted to give Jensen more of a rest than having to put him on after 45 mins, given the shortage of fit midfielders. From listening to TF's interview, it sounds like Marcondes & Baptiste may be longer term than we realised, so TF is going to have to manage the squad very carefully.
 

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Who knows why the formation change. One thing for sure, it would have been a different line up had all been fit. I would have taken 3 points from these two games. Just really frustrating. HD couldn't cope with the wing back position. I really wish Bryan would have a go with his right foot. Canos was poor to start but I thought he improved second half, as did they all. Really like Forss and I also think IT has hit the ground running. Can we accommodate both in a system they have all been indoctrinated in though?

I believe the alternatives are coming. Ghoddos will improve and so will Janelt. If only someone had noticed HD being dragged back in the penalty area, and Bryan trusted his right to make contact. We could have won that.

I believe in TF as head coach. We are improving, but we are not a shoe in for promotion this season. Long way to go. We are throwing in players who should have been introduced gradually.

One positive though, I have noticed we are keeping a lot more of possession from our own throw-ins than last season. And another is that we won't be anywhere near the bottom of the table. That'll do me if need be.
 

BaildonBee

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I think Michael O'Neill has got the measure of Brentford on the road. That is what disappointed me today. We knew they would press us high. Other teams will do the same because they know Brentford can be pegged back and slowed down and are not half the threat when they go behind. The formation change did not help us but that is no excuse for leaving Steven Fletcher unmarked. You will lose more than you win defending like that. Some of our decision making was very poor today. Stoke played well and seemed in control pretty much throughout. Some experienced heads in their team (McClean, Fletcher etc) took advantage of our under par showing.
 

Delbee

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Two saving graces out off today’s game.

By default we have a new Plan. Toney and Forss together upfront
We have not dropped to far in the league table 3 points off top 6

Forget the rest it’s not worth discussion, it cost me £10 on IFOLLOW waste of money , feel for those who paid out to go to Lionel Rd
 

North Northants Bee

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I agree. Was a bit of a negative interview for him.
It was a negative interview for him yes, but then he has a reason for it as his tactical gamble backfired massively. I love Thomas but he got it wrong today and I also disagree with his comment about whatever formation we played it wouldn't have changed the outcome in the first half. If we had played with a back 4 then I don't believe Stoke would've been 2-0 up at half time. Of course he is frustrated at the injuries but the players were absolutely clueless in that first half with regards to roles etc, if he wanted to rest Jensen then perhaps a 442 formation would've been better. I would've thought it was less riskier for forward players to try and play a new formation as if they are not firing on all cylinders then we can still draw 0-0 but that was a shocking performance again. I also don't understand why we don't believe in ourselves a bit more, we kept clean sheets last season because we attacked teams and blew them away which mentally destroyed the teams. Even with that starting 11 we should've been good enough to win that match but Stoke were so much more up for it and played a much higher tempo in that first half, we are gifted with Toney & Forss and we should play to our strengths a bit more when we are struggling with injuries.
Anyway, let's hope that was the last "one off" for the season and we plough onwards & upwards on Tuesday!
 

davidccpigeons

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Great to see two strikers again. Towers and Francis. Holdsworth and Blisset. Toney and Forss? It may be unfashionable, but a lot better than seeing three central defenders today.
 
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I did ask at halftime on the match update , was Ghoddos playing I saw no positives from him in the first half
I must say the whole team didn't perform in the first half, from the defence to midfield to striker. It was a clueless mess, noone knew what to do from my observation. I do agree with @North Northants Bee a bad tactical gamble with players not playing to the strength of the team. We played their game and they dominated. Second half was better and had we gone with that formation we would have had more midfield possession, controlling and dictating the game.

TF is right about the lack of pace and urgency in the first half, but that is up to himself to put chilli's up the players back-end and make them work for it.
 
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beetee

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I did ask at halftime on the match update , was Ghoddos playing I saw no positives from him in the first half
None of our players looked good in that formation.
 

Les Beeavinu

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I seem to be the only one who is not seeing much from Ghoddos.
If I wasn't such an easy going and mild mannered person I might get cross here. ;)

When Jota joined, he was mainly a sub until we played Leeds at home (half a dozen games in) when he scored a really good goal. Even after that he took a while to really get to grips with the Championship. Said Benrahma scored one goal by Christmas in his first few months and was also often a sub. We need to give players from other leagues time to settle into the Championship, it is a much harder league than where they would have been playing previously.
 

Indian Bee

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So I have unbanned myself from this forum as I have read some crap on here today

I was hugely disappointed with TF post match comments. I would have respected him more if he said he 'owned' this defeat today. Ultimately, his selection lost us at least 1 point. I can too a degree understand why he went to a back 3 (with us being very light in midfield) but if he does then surely he must move HD as one of the back 3 (use his experience and a right footer) rather than using both Mads and Goode whom are still inexperienced at Championship level. Then use either Canos or Fosu as the right wing back with a bit of pace.

We are 4 points away from 2nd place still and this division this year from what I have seen is sh*te. The league is there for the taking. I still believe we have a strong squad but getting the balance right is the key for me. As I noted in the Toney thread the scout I spoke to noted 2 things, Toney will score loads for us but Goode is probably not the player (yet) for the promotion looking team. It is a big step up.

We are the second top scorers in the league but with one of the worst defensive records. CN is a huge lost but I would have taken a win against Coventry and 2 points in 2 tough away games at Wednesday and Stoke. We are 1 point up. We play 3 out of the next games at home and I expect 10 points.

Ghoddos will come good, can't for the life of me understand the criticism today of him give him a chance ffs and those that were critical of Jansson midweek should appreciate how important he is to the team.

Finally, try reading the Fulham forum tonight!
 
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Voice from the Braemar

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first half an utter shambles from management and most of the team........2nd half a lot better but the damage had already been done...........i really hope tf learns a lesson from this but with his past history im not so sure........reading are already miles away from us and we really need to be looking at 2nd place minimum as play offs and brentford are just a waste of time.........we need 6 points from the next 2 games and nothing less will do if we want to be considered for top2 positions......go attacking tf and try to change things a lot quicker when you can see that its fkin doooooomed capt mainwaring
 

LingfieldBee

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Really difficult for TF. If we had gone 433 and Jensen, Marcondes or the new lad not used to English game yet had a shocker and we got bullied many might have said should have played what he tried today.

TF we'll learn and good to see the 442 worked well albeit and tiring Stoke side on the back foot.

We will have to rotate due to the heavy amount of games to to Christmas.
Long way to go and although it's not the blistering start we wanted better than last season!

No doom and gloom from me.
 

James_ah

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I would’ve started with the same line up vs Sheff Weds, with Mads instead of Pontus due to injury.

I don’t get the reason to be so negative (yeah it’s Stoke and a horrible place to go but, play to win) and the players seemed confused as to who’s role was what, the first half was dreadful...Dalsgaard was caught out twice and he doesn’t have the legs to be flying up and down the wing in the position he was playing.

Forss was class when he came on, he’s a natural goal scorer, ice cold in front of goal...his first was an incredible finish, powered past the keeper.

Crazy to think...Imagine if Bryan had a right foot, we could’ve somehow come out with a draw 😂😂
 

Isleworth_Bee

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Probably based on the players available, and also what the game was like last season. Think we tried to play a more tighter, defensive game, unfortunately it did not come off. Also a bit of rotation to freshen things up, did not work out.
I can understand the players available bit. But the defensive game just doesnt sit right with me. Its not what we are all about and it never works.
 

Voice from the Braemar

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I can understand the players available bit. But the defensive game just doesnt sit right with me. Its not what we are all about and it never works.
yet tf has tried it countless time and everytime we say the same thing.........surely he must have got the jist by now ? the reason we looked good at weds was the way we were on the front foot going for it from the start......all this sitting back just isnt us
 

WARFIELD BEE

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If I wasn't such an easy going and mild mannered person I might get cross here. ;)

When Jota joined, he was mainly a sub until we played Leeds at home (half a dozen games in) when he scored a really good goal. Even after that he took a while to really get to grips with the Championship. Said Benrahma scored one goal by Christmas in his first few months and was also often a sub. We need to give players from other leagues time to settle into the Championship, it is a much harder league than where they would have been playing previously.
Not saying he won't be ok, just feel he is not doing enough at the moment to justify selection ahead of say Fosu, maybe he needs to be a sub for a while,
as Jota and Said.
 

Beesfan

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yet tf has tried it countless time and everytime we say the same thing.........surely he must have got the jist by now ? the reason we looked good at weds was the way we were on the front foot going for it from the start......all this sitting back just isnt us
The worrying thing is that you’d have thought he’d realised this himself.it would have been better to have played the League Cup team...at least they would have known what they were doing in a 433. Frank over thought and over complicated it...
 

red_and_white

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Wrong combination of personnel and formation in the first half.

Goode and Sorensen are solid young defenders - but never suited to playing as wide centre backs. Dalsgaard, unfortunately, looks past his physical peak and playing as a wing back was beyond him. Comfortable for Stoke and they easily deserved their 2 goal lead.

Second half was completely different. Back to 4-3-3, we controlled it. But by this stage the game had a predictable pattern and Stoke hit that killer third on the counter attack. Must say, it was an excellent goal from their young forward Campbell.

Once we went 4-4-2 and they took Campbell off, we were the only team in it but 3-0 is too much of a gap to bridge. We gave it a go though and Forss was excellent, made the scoreline far less embarrassing than the first half performance warranted.

Frank really needs to shoulder responsibility for this. A tactical experiment that failed.

A big concern as well, that we conceded no more than 2 goals in a game for all of last season, and we’ve already conceded 4 and 3 in games this season.

Must bounce back now and beat Luton.
Good summary! The main tactical experiment did go wrong, you’re right. There was a forced tactical experiment of 4-4-2 against defensive teams which might need exploring. It’s inconclusive but an interesting one.
 

BaildonBee

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Not sure why managers wait until h,t to change things when we are already 2 goals down and the system is not working...
Some don't wait. Bielsa made a change on 20 minutes yesterday when his CDM got an early yellow card.
 

AB

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Some don't wait. Bielsa made a change on 20 minutes yesterday when his CDM got an early yellow card.
Mainly because he looked like he’d get sent off next challenge.
 

BFChero

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The switch to a back 5 killed us today, as simple as that. I appreciate Frank trying to make us less predictable, something we became guilty of towards the end of last season. Also accept that we have few Injuries at the moment. But after such a positive performance on Wednesday we should have played our own game and not worried about how the opposition were lining up.(Steven Fletcher and James Mcclean, not Mbappe and Neymar). Goode/Mads in for Jansonn IMO would have sufficed. Da Silva was held back from playing his natural game by playing in a 2. Janelt also failed to make a challenge in the build up to the first goal which cost us. Not all doom and gloom as games coming thick and fast, 6 points from the next two is achieveable. You Bees.
 

Indian Bee

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Mainly because he looked like he’d get sent off next challenge.
yes but that shows guts .... he saw a problem and reacted straight away. TF must have known after 30 minutes the system wasn’t working today so change it rather than wait until HT.
 

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