Wigan Athletic Enter Administration

Oceanbee

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2013
Messages
2,212
Reaction score
757
Whatever points deduction decision happens for Wigan, it won’t affect their relegation this season. Only their final position determined by normal games will do that.

So the only effect on Saturday’s game will be Wigan players thinking about who they will play for next season.

With the state of many clubs financially, the old adage comes to mind -

How do you become the millionaire owner of a football club?
You start off by owning a club as a billionaire!
 

RAF_Patto

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
373
Reaction score
210
Location
Naphill
With regards to the talk of them being fired up or not, do people not suspect that the players may have known this was coming for a while? Hence their recent form to try and make up those points.

Announcing it on the 1st July may have been a ploy by their board to claim it is "next season" and therefore get the dedication at the start of the actual next season, it's not worked, but the players were already expecting it.
 

Oceanbee

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2013
Messages
2,212
Reaction score
757
With regards to the talk of them being fired up or not, do people not suspect that the players may have known this was coming for a while? Hence their recent form to try and make up those points.

Announcing it on the 1st July may have been a ploy by their board to claim it is "next season" and therefore get the dedication at the start of the actual next season, it's not worked, but the players were already expecting it.
If the 12 points deduction makes them in the final relegation places this season, then the 12 points will not be enforced, and they will start next season with the 12 points deduction.

If the 12 points when deducted this season, does not put them in the final relegation places,then the 12 points will be enforced for this season.

So essentially Wigan are safe in the current season from any deduction making them relegated.They can only be relegated this season through their actual results, not from any points deduction!
 

Edmundo

Whinging pom
Joined
5 Apr 2000
Messages
36,811
Reaction score
202
Location
Alexandria, NSW, Australia
If the 12 points deduction makes them in the final relegation places this season, then the 12 points will not be enforced,
This is incorrect.

The only scenario in which the deduction is carried forward is that they finish in the bottom three before the points deduction is applied.
 

ruislip bee

Well-known member
Joined
25 Apr 2009
Messages
21,678
Reaction score
891
If the 12 points deduction makes them in the final relegation places this season, then the 12 points will not be enforced, and they will start next season with the 12 points deduction.

If the 12 points when deducted this season, does not put them in the final relegation places,then the 12 points will be enforced for this season.

So essentially Wigan are safe in the current season from any deduction making them relegated.They can only be relegated this season through their actual results, not from any points deduction!
Wrong totally the other way around. If they avoid relegation results wise the 12 point deduction will be inflicted this season thus relegating them. If they go down anyway it will be inflicted next season thus they start -12pts. Who told you otherwise?
 

YorkBee

and Lil miss Yorkbee too
Joined
8 Apr 2000
Messages
6,381
Reaction score
112
Location
Selby
tbh the best way it should be done and I know it would make it difficult for us on Saturday is to deduct the points at the moment of going into administration, and that should be right across the board no matter what the club.
 

BlueJayBee

Hoka hey!
Joined
7 Jul 2014
Messages
4,440
Reaction score
212
Location
Weetabixville, Northamptonshire
With regards to the talk of them being fired up or not, do people not suspect that the players may have known this was coming for a while? Hence their recent form to try and make up those points.

Announcing it on the 1st July may have been a ploy by their board to claim it is "next season" and therefore get the dedication at the start of the actual next season, it's not worked, but the players were already expecting it.
Good point.
 

TW3Bee

It was down in the Town of Northampton
Joined
26 Oct 2005
Messages
56,751
Reaction score
957
Location
Lampton Village
Wrong totally the other way around. If they avoid relegation results wise the 12 point deduction will be inflicted this season thus relegating them. If they go down anyway it will be inflicted next season thus they start -12pts. Who told you otherwise?
Either way they are relegated.
 

Oceanbee

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2013
Messages
2,212
Reaction score
757
Wrong totally the other way around. If they avoid relegation results wise the 12 point deduction will be inflicted this season thus relegating them. If they go down anyway it will be inflicted next season thus they start -12pts. Who told you otherwise?
I originally heard my version on Sky, so they must have misreported it, or made it sound so complicated that I got it wrong. Either way, apologies.

Maybe I’m still confused, but don’t think it’s yet a foregone conclusion that they will get relegated even with the 12 points deduction theoretically applied now.

Right now, with the deduction they’d be bottom with 38 points. This is only 4 points behind Hull (who have tonight’s match in hand), and 5 points behind Stoke.

With 6 games left they could still make up lost ground and get out of the bottom 3. Then the 12 points deduction will apply next season. Is that right?

So they might fight even harder on Saturday for the points, or they may feel very depressed and not bother. Difficult to know the impact on their players’ minds.
 

jlove

Well-known member
Joined
17 Dec 2002
Messages
33,982
Reaction score
1,413
Location
Vaison-la-Romaine
The only Wigan points I'm concerned about are the 3 on Saturday. The rest can wait until the end of their season.
 

TW3Bee

It was down in the Town of Northampton
Joined
26 Oct 2005
Messages
56,751
Reaction score
957
Location
Lampton Village
What it has done though is put a spanner in the works of trying to get Birmingscum and/or QPeeHa relegated.
 

Edmundo

Whinging pom
Joined
5 Apr 2000
Messages
36,811
Reaction score
202
Location
Alexandria, NSW, Australia
With 6 games left they could still make up lost ground and get out of the bottom 3. Then the 12 points deduction will apply next season. Is that right?
No it's not. The only way that the deduction is carried forward to next season is if they would have been relegated anyway, without a points deduction.
 

Gee Bee

Well-known member
Joined
18 Jan 2001
Messages
22,608
Reaction score
144
Location
Rayleigh
No it's not. The only way that the deduction is carried forward to next season is if they would have been relegated anyway, without a points deduction.
So if they stayed on 50 points with 6 straight losses and that took them in bottom 3 the 12 points start next season?
 

Judio1999

Moderator
Joined
11 Apr 2011
Messages
9,820
Reaction score
134
@Oceanbee
Wigan are on 50 points

If they stay on 50 ( or one or two) higher and finish in the bottom three.

That would mean the deduction happens next season


Any other scenario means the 12 comes off now.

To be honest 50 would be very unlikely to go down
 

Judio1999

Moderator
Joined
11 Apr 2011
Messages
9,820
Reaction score
134
So the Wigan players must think
We are on 38
Six games left
Only 4 points away from Hull and 5 from Stoke

Both of those teams are dreadful

So we have a great chance to stay up
And start in Championship on nil points
 

Oceanbee

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2013
Messages
2,212
Reaction score
757
@Oceanbee
Wigan are on 50 points

If they stay on 50 ( or one or two) higher and finish in the bottom three.

That would mean the deduction happens next season


Any other scenario means the 12 comes off now.

To be honest 50 would be very unlikely to go down
Thanks for the explanation.

It does make you wonder about the fairness of the EFL system for deduction.
Surely, the whole points deduction should be made in the season in which the club went into administration, regardless of league position.

By saying that if on results played, the club is already in the bottom 3, then by deferring the points deduction to next season, the club is getting a double whammy punishment, in my opinion.

It gets relegated, and then it starts the next season in a lower league with a 12 points disadvantage, further punishing it.

Contrast that scenario with the club being outside the bottom 3, then having the 12 points deducted pushing it into the relegation zone.

So it gets relegated, but it starts next season in the lower league with a clean slate on an equal footing with all the other clubs.

Seems a bit odd. But I guess that one reason may be to keep clubs in administration trying to win games, and keep out of the relegation zone, rather than just giving up altogether and losing their remaining games.
This would then unfairly benefit the teams they played in the remaining, post-administration, matches.

Phew. All to complicated - typical EFL rules, which have too many implications instead of being simple and straightforward!
 

Ealing Bee

Well-known member
Joined
5 Jun 2002
Messages
10,158
Reaction score
915
Location
Now Chiswick (proud to be a YIMBY)
Thanks for the explanation.

It does make you wonder about the fairness of the EFL system for deduction.
Surely, the whole points deduction should be made in the season in which the club went into administration, regardless of league position.

By saying that if on results played, the club is already in the bottom 3, then by deferring the points deduction to next season, the club is getting a double whammy punishment, in my opinion.
The reason they do it this way is to stop clubs picking and choosing exactly when to go into Administration in order to avoid a real "punishment".

For example, if a club which is going down the pan financially is also likely to get relegated anyhow, then they'll just declare Administration immediately, take a (meaningless) points deduction and start next season in the lower division with a clean slate.

But if they've got a fighting chance of staying up, then they'll do the minimum it takes until the season is over and they're safe from relegation, then go into Admin and start the next season with the points deduction, but still in the same Division.

But the way the EFL's rules work presently is that if you screw the books so badly that the club goes bust, then if they don't get you this season, they'll get you the next. And quite right, too (imo).

P.S. As someone noted earlier, it may not be coincidence that WAFC announced it on July 1st i.e. technically the first day after the "old" season had ended. A loophole, perhaps?

It gets relegated, and then it starts the next season in a lower league with a 12 points disadvantage, further punishing it.
Except that it's not a "further punishment".

If you don't get enough points to stay up, the consequence is relegation. That applies to every team, whether financially stable or not.

And if you go into Admin, you get a points deduction. Which is applied whether you are top of the division, mid-table or bottom.

In other words, the two "punishments" may have consequences for each other, but are nonetheless separate.
 
Last edited:

maddogging

The Silver Fox of the GPG
Joined
12 Jul 2002
Messages
11,496
Reaction score
135
Location
Hemel Hempstead
So the Wigan players must think
We are on 38
Six games left
Only 4 points away from Hull and 5 from Stoke

Both of those teams are dreadful

So we have a great chance to stay up
And start in Championship on nil points
Yes, selfishly I hope the players don’t get paid tomorrow as that will certainly alter their thought process....
 

jlove

Well-known member
Joined
17 Dec 2002
Messages
33,982
Reaction score
1,413
Location
Vaison-la-Romaine
Yes, selfishly I hope the players don’t get paid tomorrow as that will certainly alter their thought process....
I would expect they were paid on Tuesday, before the administrators got called in.
 

Stanley

Well-known member
Joined
10 Jan 2001
Messages
13,783
Reaction score
224
I get the feeling this all happened quite suddenly and maybe without any warning as the new owners just seem to have bailed out. Not inconceivable that the players have not been paid in full.

EFL getting a lot of stick as expected but to be honest if the new owners presented themselves with evidence of appropriate funds, a workable business plan and a credible track record in business what else could they do but approve them. Nobody could foresee they might jack it all in within a month.

Very hard to call how it will affect Saturday but I am sure TF will keep the players focussed.
 

Oceanbee

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2013
Messages
2,212
Reaction score
757
Hi Ealing Bee,

Thanks for your comments.

The thing I’m confused about is this.
Suppose you are the bottom club right now, and you go into administration, and you stay that way until the end of the season, say with 38 points as your final tally.

Then why aren’t the 12 points deducted then, and you get relegated with 26 points.

Why do you start the next season in the lower division before the 12 points are deducted?

Thanks.
 

nick logan

Well-known member
Joined
6 Apr 2000
Messages
31,570
Reaction score
1,542
Location
Essex
Hi Ealing Bee,

Thanks for your comments.

The thing I’m confused about is this.
Suppose you are the bottom club right now, and you go into administration, and you stay that way until the end of the season, say with 38 points as your final tally.

Then why aren’t the 12 points deducted then, and you get relegated with 26 points.

Why do you start the next season in the lower division before the 12 points are deducted?

Thanks.
Because then there is no punishment
 

badgerbee

Mafeking Avenue........gets you there!!!!
Joined
28 Jan 2008
Messages
15,277
Reaction score
1,309
Location
Langport, Somerset
But if this situation is the end of the season -

The club is further up the table, goes into administration and at the season end has say 62 points.

12 points are deducted, but this doesn’t put it into the relegation zone. It just ends up further down the league table, but is then starting the new season in the same league on an equal footing with everyone else.

So that seems even less punishment than ending up relegated and starting a new season with 12 points deducted immediately.
Yep.
See Birmingscum City...........
 

Oceanbee

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2013
Messages
2,212
Reaction score
757
Because then there is no punishment
But if this situation is the end of the season -

The club is further up the table, goes into administration and at the season end has say 62 points.

12 points are deducted, but this doesn’t put it into the relegation zone. It just ends up further down the league table, but is then starting the new season in the same league on an equal footing with everyone else.

So that seems even less punishment than ending up relegated and starting a new season with 12 points deducted immediately.
 

nick logan

Well-known member
Joined
6 Apr 2000
Messages
31,570
Reaction score
1,542
Location
Essex
But if this situation is the end of the season -

The club is further up the table, goes into administration and at the season end has say 62 points.

12 points are deducted, but this doesn’t put it into the relegation zone. It just ends up further down the league table, but is then starting the new season in the same league on an equal footing with everyone else.

So that seems even less punishment than ending up relegated and starting a new season with 12 points deducted immediately.
If that happens it will be carried over ?
 

BlueJayBee

Hoka hey!
Joined
7 Jul 2014
Messages
4,440
Reaction score
212
Location
Weetabixville, Northamptonshire
But if this situation is the end of the season -

The club is further up the table, goes into administration and at the season end has say 62 points.

12 points are deducted, but this doesn’t put it into the relegation zone. It just ends up further down the league table, but is then starting the new season in the same league on an equal footing with everyone else.

So that seems even less punishment than ending up relegated and starting a new season with 12 points deducted immediately.
That's the only scenario where I can see that there wouldn't be any consequences, but what else could be done, in such circumstances?
 

badgerbee

Mafeking Avenue........gets you there!!!!
Joined
28 Jan 2008
Messages
15,277
Reaction score
1,309
Location
Langport, Somerset

Judio1999

Moderator
Joined
11 Apr 2011
Messages
9,820
Reaction score
134
I think it all started with maybe Port Vale

They were 15 points from safety so went into admin
The deduction was meaningless

So EFL changed rules if you went onto admin after a certain date near end of season
 

kevalutonbee

Well-known member
Joined
11 Aug 2004
Messages
17,487
Reaction score
5
Location
In the wrong
I think it all started with maybe Port Vale

They were 15 points from safety so went into admin
The deduction was meaningless

So EFL changed rules if you went onto admin after a certain date near end of season
I thought it was Boston United
 

TW3Bee

It was down in the Town of Northampton
Joined
26 Oct 2005
Messages
56,751
Reaction score
957
Location
Lampton Village
Hi Ealing Bee,

Thanks for your comments.

The thing I’m confused about is this.
Suppose you are the bottom club right now, and you go into administration, and you stay that way until the end of the season, say with 38 points as your final tally.

Then why aren’t the 12 points deducted then, and you get relegated with 26 points.

Why do you start the next season in the lower division before the 12 points are deducted?

Thanks.
Because it would encourage clubs that are relegated going into administration.
 

Dazza

Active member
Joined
5 Sep 2006
Messages
1,729
Reaction score
469
Location
Twickenham
But if this situation is the end of the season -

The club is further up the table, goes into administration and at the season end has say 62 points.

12 points are deducted, but this doesn’t put it into the relegation zone. It just ends up further down the league table, but is then starting the new season in the same league on an equal footing with everyone else.

So that seems even less punishment than ending up relegated and starting a new season with 12 points deducted immediately.
In a usual season there is a cutoff point (some time in April) where if the club goes into admin after that date it's carried over to the next season in order to avoid the situation you describe.
 

costabees

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2013
Messages
728
Reaction score
88
Alan Nixon now reporting that from tomorrow, Wigan players will only get 20% of their normal wages
 

hatfieldbee

Once a Bee always a Bee, but not a fake one
Joined
13 Dec 2007
Messages
5,269
Reaction score
143
Location
Hatfield, Herts
The Telegraph reporting that the Administrators 'have to find funds' for wages, and also travel costs for this Saturday's match against us. Reading between the lines, that means no travelling the day before, with a hotel stay overnight. Not the ideal preparation for the match!
 

Holysmit

Well-known member
Joined
22 Feb 2001
Messages
11,632
Reaction score
344
Location
West London
The Telegraph reporting that the Administrators 'have to find funds' for wages, and also travel costs for this Saturday's match against us. Reading between the lines, that means no travelling the day before, with a hotel stay overnight. Not the ideal preparation for the match!
Particularly as they will have had all kind of thoughts running through their mind since the announcement.
 

Vid

Active member
Joined
30 Sep 2013
Messages
4,295
Reaction score
797
Location
In the shed.
I wonder if the situation in H.K. has something to do with this. The owners International Entertainment Corporation are based there.
 

TW3Bee

It was down in the Town of Northampton
Joined
26 Oct 2005
Messages
56,751
Reaction score
957
Location
Lampton Village
This is all leading towards a 1-0 win for Wigan.
 

JCMcBee

Active member
Joined
19 Apr 2013
Messages
9,412
Reaction score
288
....50p says this anxiety ridden thread gets banished to GPG archive vaults if we win Saturday...let's hope so....on both counts.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom