Work Permits (1 Viewer)

chris_bees7

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71 days until the first post-Brexit transfer window.

As things stand all players from outside UK/Ireland will need to be regular full internationals to qualify.

End of foreign signings below PL level. Will things change? Who knows?

As I understand the FA proposals for work permits all non-UK/Ireland players will be treated the same. In order to qualify for a work permit (simplified) they will need to be regular internationals or cost >£15m

So teams wont be able to sign any players outside of the Uk without a work permit.
 

Ealing Bee

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I'm not sure it will work out quite like that.

At present, for non-EU signings, it's not just the standard of player being brought in, but also the level of the club signing him. For example, SPL clubs can sign overseas players who would never get a work permit for the EPL (basically a recognition that the Scots have far less purchasing power). Consequently, the requirements for a work permit for a player going to an EFL club may be lowered.

One thing is quite clear, mind, EPL clubs won't be able to hoover up talented young teenagers from EU countries like they're doing at present on an industrial scale, in the hope that one or two might make it to the first team and the rest sold for a few quid when they're a bit older. (I'm looking at you, Chelsea)

Any overseas signings will probably need to be established internationals at a decent level, therefore older, to get a permit.
 

Shamrock_Bee

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I think what the FA are saying is football won't be exempt from the new immigration rules facing the UK post Brexit. The government/Brexiteers plans going forward is to grant work permits to applicants who possess the skills that the UK has a shortage of or a higher standard of skills/expertise than is currently in the UK workforce to help the economy

In essence the single market and free movement of people is gone; in football terms this means it's very unlikely the Home office will grant work permits to footballers coming from the French second or third tier for example who have little current value and no international experience. I presume the HO will rule there is enough footballers of that standard in the UK already.

The bigger clubs are likely to purchase potential and loan them back to clubs in Europe; hoping they fulfil their potential so they can apply for a work permit at a later date.

The FA are unlikely to challenge the government on this policy as it's likely to improve England teams; opening up more opportunities for English talent to make it through the leagues.

It won't be good for our model as I guess the days of identifying young European talent and developing them under the radar might be over - unless we use FCM as a base to develop the players.
 

jlove

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I'm not quite sure what the FA has got to do with it...
 

Banana

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I'm not sure it will work out quite like that.
Non EU footballers need to be internationals with a certain amount of caps and still playing international football. So it will work out "quite like that" AFAIK
 

Ealing Bee

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Non EU footballers need to be internationals with a certain amount of caps and still playing international football. So it will work out "quite like that" AFAIK
Rangers were able to sign the uncapped Columbian, Alfredo Morelos, for £1m from Finnish side HJK, where he had played little more than a season. He had signed for HJK as a teenager with 12 league appearances for Medellin.

There is no way he would have been given a permit to sign for an EPL club with that CV, rather he is just one of dozens of examples of players given a permit to work in the SPL, in recognition that SPL clubs have far less purchasing power, for overseas AND domestic players, than their competitors in the PL.

If the EFL has any gumption, they will be arguing that what's good enough for the SPL should be good enough for the EFL.

And if the government has any clue, they'll listen.

(I make no comment on that last point.)
 

AB

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Doesn’t sound very promising for our business model unless we go up this season.
 

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very unlikely the Home office will grant work permits to footballers coming from the French second or third tier for example who have little current value and no international experience. I presume the HO will rule there is enough footballers of that standard in the UK already.
The HO has regularly bent rules for footballers in the past.
 

Ealing Bee

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The HO has regularly bent rules for footballers in the past.
I'm not sure they're "bending" the rules as such.

Rather as my earlier post demonstrates, the rules have a degree of flexibility built-in, to allow for the circumstances of the employer seeking the permit.

And as I said, Rangers were permitted to sign Morelos who had a CV which was arguably weaker than that of eg Maupay or Benrahma. Morelos is only one of many players in the SPL who would never have been allowed a permit to sign for a PL club.
 

Untouchable

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I'm not sure they're "bending" the rules as such.

Rather as my earlier post demonstrates, the rules have a degree of flexibility built-in, to allow for the circumstances of the employer seeking the permit.

And as I said, Rangers were permitted to sign Morelos who had a CV which was arguably weaker than that of eg Maupay or Benrahma. Morelos is only one of many players in the SPL who would never have been allowed a permit to sign for a PL club.
Technically it’s ‘applying a discretion.’ In reality it’s bending the rules. This has happened for a number of footballers and other celebrities. Such decisions can usually be taken below SCS level for any route (whether it’s a Border Force decision, asylum, EEA or any other type covered by the immigration rules. It’s only deportation cases that might need signing off at SCS level or above and will often need a ministers approval).
 

Shamrock_Bee

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I'm not sure they're "bending" the rules as such.

Rather as my earlier post demonstrates, the rules have a degree of flexibility built-in, to allow for the circumstances of the employer seeking the permit.

And as I said, Rangers were permitted to sign Morelos who had a CV which was arguably weaker than that of eg Maupay or Benrahma. Morelos is only one of many players in the SPL who would never have been allowed a permit to sign for a PL club.

This government haven't been very complimentory of the football industry
Morelos was signed in different political circumstances. Brexit is going to significantly change the landscape and there appears to be a determination (which I disagree with personally) to move the UK to an ability/requirement points system when granting work permits.

This government haven't exactly been complimentory of the football industry so I don't see the political will amongst the government led by Brexiteers or the FA for that to matter to make football exempt.

Football players at the top of the game and those who have a number of international caps will be fine but players who clubs want to sign from lower leagues in Europe for lower leagues in England with no international caps will be different.

The FA and government will want clubs to develop players already in the UK over giving opportunities to potential gems elsewhere; they'll also not want poor standard of players being given work permits to play in the EFL when they'll argue players already in the UK could do that job.

We might actually be one of the clubs most affected by the post Brexit landscape due to how our model works; we will certainly have to tweak how we do things but I'm sure we'll find a solution.
 

Ealing Bee

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Morelos was signed in different political circumstances. Brexit is going to significantly change the landscape and there appears to be a determination (which I disagree with personally) to move the UK to an ability/requirement points system when granting work permits.

This government haven't exactly been complimentory of the football industry so I don't see the political will amongst the government led by Brexiteers or the FA for that to matter to make football exempt.

Football players at the top of the game and those who have a number of international caps will be fine but players who clubs want to sign from lower leagues in Europe for lower leagues in England with no international caps will be different.

The FA and government will want clubs to develop players already in the UK over giving opportunities to potential gems elsewhere; they'll also not want poor standard of players being given work permits to play in the EFL when they'll argue players already in the UK could do that job.

We might actually be one of the clubs most affected by the post Brexit landscape due to how our model works; we will certainly have to tweak how we do things but I'm sure we'll find a solution.
Except my point was that HMG gets to determine what levels the points are set at, and where they apply. And they have demonstrated in the past that they have, and will exercise, flexibility for non-EU footballers.
And as for the Brexit business, that's designed to keep out millions of low-wage Poles and Romanians who wish to settle here permanently with their families etc, not a couple of thousand relatively high-earning footballers who will be paying big taxes for the few years of their career when they're allowed to work here.

This government haven't exactly been complimentory of the football industry so I don't see the political will amongst the government led by Brexiteers or the FA for that to matter to make football exempt.
HMG know where their own interests lie. And as a recognised world leader, the English football "industry" generates billions of pounds for the UK economy, incl all these millionaire players paying literally billions in taxes in return.

One of the reasons for the game's success is that it signs players and managers from all over the world, in turn attracting huge investment in ownership, tv, media, sponsorship, corporate etc. For example, I read that Spurs have more "fans" (I know, I know) in South Korea than they have in England! So if it has any sense, and football can put its case across sensibly, then no government is going to kill one of its last golden egg-laying geese.
 

Shamrock_Bee

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Except my point was that HMG gets to determine what levels the points are set at, and where they apply. And they have demonstrated in the past that they have, and will exercise, flexibility for non-EU footballers.
And as for the Brexit business, that's designed to keep out millions of low-wage Poles and Romanians who wish to settle here permanently with their families etc, not a couple of thousand relatively high-earning footballers who will be paying big taxes for the few years of their career when they're allowed to work here.


HMG know where their own interests lie. And as a recognised world leader, the English football "industry" generates billions of pounds for the UK economy, incl all these millionaire players paying literally billions in taxes in return.

One of the reasons for the game's success is that it signs players and managers from all over the world, in turn attracting huge investment in ownership, tv, media, sponsorship, corporate etc. For example, I read that Spurs have more "fans" (I know, I know) in South Korea than they have in England! So if it has any sense, and football can put its case across sensibly, then no government is going to kill one of its last golden egg-laying geese.
Your points are spot on but I was alluding to players further down the pyramid plying their trade in the EFL who wouldn't be on massive wages or playing anymore than 20% tax - the type of players we'd identify for our B team or players identified by EFL clubs as they're cheaper or have the potential to develop.

I think that market is going to be tougher in a post Brexit landscape which is what I meant by English clubs possibly taking a gamble but loaning them out to European clubs; you might also find more English clubs buy European clubs for this very reason.

The top players paying 40% plus tax and playing in the PL will be fine but I suspect the FA will have their eyes on the EFL as a pathway to develop English talent and it's there they won't push for any exemption which would in my opinion affect our model if we remain in the EFL.
 

Ealing Bee

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Your points are spot on but I was alluding to players further down the pyramid plying their trade in the EFL who wouldn't be on massive wages or playing anymore than 20% tax - the type of players we'd identify for our B team or players identified by EFL clubs as they're cheaper or have the potential to develop.

I think that market is going to be tougher in a post Brexit landscape which is what I meant by English clubs possibly taking a gamble but loaning them out to European clubs; you might also find more English clubs buy European clubs for this very reason.

The top players paying 40% plus tax and playing in the PL will be fine but I suspect the FA will have their eyes on the EFL as a pathway to develop English talent and it's there they won't push for any exemption which would in my opinion affect our model if we remain in the EFL.
Except that if PL clubs aren't allowed to sign young, uncapped players from abroad, as seems likely, then they will raid the EFL for our best young English players even harder (eg they'll be signing the next Ollie Watkins directly from Exeter before Bees can get a look in).

Therefore if EFL clubs cannot sign second tier talent from overseas whom PL clubs aren't allowed to sign, then the EFL will fall even further behind. And there are 70-odd English/Welsh constituencies with an EFL club.

It's the same argument as Scotland use at present: i.e. with English football already snapping up all the best young Scots etc (eg Gilmore at Chelsea), then they have to be allowed to replanish their stock from outside Scotland. And while they're there, they cannot compete for the best/established players either, so need to be allowed to sign a promising, but still essentially 2nd rate player like Morelos.

And for "Rangers" and "£1m Morelos", read "Brentford" and "£1m Maupay".

Which is how it should be allowed to work, whether it will or not is another matter.
 

Ealing Bee

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The top players paying 40% plus tax and playing in the PL will be fine but I suspect the FA will have their eyes on the EFL as a pathway to develop English talent and it's there they won't push for any exemption which would in my opinion affect our model if we remain in the EFL.
There's no doubt that the FA will want the rules framed so as to give English-qualified players a better pathway etc. But that is really only a problem at PL clubs like Chelsea or Arsenal, who often field teams with only 1 or 2 English players (if that).

But if you look at EFL clubs, esp in the lower tiers, the majority of players are still domestic rather than imported. So it should still be possible even for progressive clubs like Brentford to maintain a first team squad with a healthy quota of UK/Irish players, topped up by the best of the overseas imports.

(In Bees case, the problem will come with our "B" team, but there I could maybe see BFC buying a club outside England as a development project?)
 

jlove

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Turn over part of Jersey Road to a vegetable patch and they can be pickers – no problem getting a work permit and fresh food as well.
 

BFC1997

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It may be more difficult for some players with EU passports to join EFL clubs than it is currently. I suspect, thought, not as difficult as these reports suggest.

Hopefully, the flip side is that we can start to recruit players from non-EU countries which is almost impossible currently.
 

Shamrock_Bee

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There's no doubt that the FA will want the rules framed so as to give English-qualified players a better pathway etc. But that is really only a problem at PL clubs like Chelsea or Arsenal, who often field teams with only 1 or 2 English players (if that).

But if you look at EFL clubs, esp in the lower tiers, the majority of players are still domestic rather than imported. So it should still be possible even for progressive clubs like Brentford to maintain a first team squad with a healthy quota of UK/Irish players, topped up by the best of the overseas imports.

(In Bees case, the problem will come with our "B" team, but there I could maybe see BFC buying a club outside England as a development project?)
Not sure what we'll do to counteract the new rules to ensure we don't lose the benefits of the B team project. In regards to buying a club outside England as a development project I guess we'd use FCM and the set up there if required - maybe move the B team to FCM if we were seriously affected and required a base outside England to continue the project.
 

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JANORAK

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Not sure what we'll do to counteract the new rules to ensure we don't lose the benefits of the B team project. In regards to buying a club outside England as a development project I guess we'd use FCM and the set up there if required - maybe move the B team to FCM if we were seriously affected and required a base outside England to continue the project.
FCM are already established, and it could be argued, a slightly higher level overall (UEFA comps) than ourselves.
I quite fancy us having a Scottish feeder club. Something nice and central for “parking” players for a season or two. Queens Park anyone?
Just as long as they don’t qualify for Europe before us....
 
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TheHairdresser

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It may be more difficult for some players with EU passports to join EFL clubs than it is currently. I suspect, thought, not as difficult as these reports suggest.

Hopefully, the flip side is that we can start to recruit players from non-EU countries which is almost impossible currently.
Think current issues recruiting uncapped non-EU players are a reflection of existing UK legislation, so can't interpret how Brexit will over-ride this systemic problem.

........it's down to each individual EU country to legislate on this anyway, hence PL clubs like Chelsea having clubs in Belgium/Holland to park players and thus qualify for settled status/EU passport in due course.
 

Peteseeger

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It may be more difficult for some players with EU passports to join EFL clubs than it is currently. I suspect, thought, not as difficult as these reports suggest.

Hopefully, the flip side is that we can start to recruit players from non-EU countries which is almost impossible currently.
We have recruited non-EU players in the past but usually from clubs in the EU e.g Davutoglu. Up until now, we have tended to scout the European leagues for our non UK players and it hasn't mattered whether they are EU or non-EU nationals as they are already established playing in the EU. Hopefully this avenue will continue ot be open to us after 2020.

.
 

jlove

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We have recruited non-EU players in the past but usually from clubs in the EU e.g Davutoglu. Up until now, we have tended to scout the European leagues for our non UK players and it hasn't mattered whether they are EU or non-EU nationals as they are already established playing in the EU. Hopefully this avenue will continue ot be open to us after 2020.

.
If you mean Dervişoğlu, then he was born in the Netherlands and has dual citizenship, so is an EU national, in the same way that Ghoddos is Swedish and Jeanvier French.

Remember Mokotjo had to establish residence in the Netherlands to get EU citizenship before he could come to Brentford. FCM recruit African players but that is because Denmark is a more open country.
 

hobbsy

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We have recruited non-EU players in the past but usually from clubs in the EU e.g Davutoglu. Up until now, we have tended to scout the European leagues for our non UK players and it hasn't mattered whether they are EU or non-EU nationals as they are already established playing in the EU. Hopefully this avenue will continue ot be open to us after 2020.

.
Dervisoglu had been in Sparta Rotterdam's academy for 9 years so I assume he has an EU passport.

We couldn't sign Mokotjo when we wanted because he was only a South African national, after two more years in The Netherlands he got his EU passport and we signed him.
 

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So, this could very well scupper the successful Bees model or at the very least cause the club an extra headache. Despite this fact a post hinting those Bees who voted for this situation may want to reflect on that gets deleted by admin? Hey ho, all the their own lads.
 

Andrelux

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Dervisoglu had been in Sparta Rotterdam's academy for 9 years so I assume he has an EU passport.

We couldn't sign Mokotjo when we wanted because he was only a South African national, after two more years in The Netherlands he got his EU passport and we signed him.
Did he actually get a Dutch passport or was he a Kolpak?
 

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I suspect that we will circumvent the rule changes by using a form of extended loan system or some devious legal concoction. Presumably, knowing how BFC operate, this will have been under consideration since the referendum result in 2016.
 

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I suspect that we will circumvent the rule changes by using a form of extended loan system or some devious legal concoction. Presumably, knowing how BFC operate, this will have been under consideration since the referendum result in 2016.
As we have no clue as to any rules that the Home Office may or may not create, be challenged and changed, I think the FA is just kite flying.
 

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There's no doubt that the FA will want the rules framed so as to give English-qualified players a better pathway etc. But that is really only a problem at PL clubs like Chelsea or Arsenal, who often field teams with only 1 or 2 English players (if that).

But if you look at EFL clubs, esp in the lower tiers, the majority of players are still domestic rather than imported. So it should still be possible even for progressive clubs like Brentford to maintain a first team squad with a healthy quota of UK/Irish players, topped up by the best of the overseas imports.

(In Bees case, the problem will come with our "B" team, but there I could maybe see BFC buying a club outside England as a development project?)
Of our preferred starting XI, how many UK/Irish players do we have? Rico, Ethan, Josh, Ivan only I think. We’re not a long way short of PL clubs with regard to the proportion of foreign players.
 

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As we have no clue as to any rules that the Home Office may or may not create, be challenged and changed, I think the FA is just kite flying.
The likely changes to the status of EU nationals was fairly clear from the start. I would've thought that the club would have proceeded along these lines and hoped that some dispensation might be made for football. Reliance on the FA to achieve a satisfactory compromise/outcome was never going to happen so I have confidence in our ingenuity and forward planning.
 

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The likely changes to the status of EU nationals was fairly clear from the start. I would've thought that the club would have proceeded along these lines and hoped that some dispensation might be made for football. Reliance on the FA to achieve a satisfactory compromise/outcome was never going to happen so I have confidence in our ingenuity and forward planning.
Yeah everyone will have already cottoned on that we look at Ligue 2. I fully expect us to be scouring the British Overseas Territories for unappreciated talent.
 

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As I see it, the FA is unlikely to insist on the current rules for non-EU players being applied across the board. If they do, it will harm the Premier league as much as if not more than the EFL. The big Premier league clubs will be fighting on this alongside the Championship sides and as Phil Giles hinted at over lockdown, there is likely to be an accommodation achieved.

Either way, we will undoubtedly lose a big chunk of our competitive advantage. The cost for UK based players will likely skyrocket and long term, we won't be able to compete as we do now. To pretend otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.
 

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So, a few weeks on, are we totally ****ed or just ****ed on this one?
 

jlove

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So, a few weeks on, are we totally ****ed or just ****ed on this one?
I’m not sure anyone knows, I think it will “evolve” until the close of next summer’s transfer window, with multiple iterations of slightly vague rules and multiple interpretations.
 

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