Manchester City Found Guilty Of FFP Breaches

[Greybeard]

Are people that out raged? Doesn't really bother me that much man city are in their own league with in our league

That's my point. Their actions demonstrate that they aren't!

 

[WARFIELD BEE]

Whatever they get will be less than they deserve.

 

[malkay]

The next stage will last 12 weeks (appeal hearing), then PL has 30 days to make the appeal findings public - so that takes us to end of Jan /early Feb 2027

Timescale after that is anyones guess

There's a decent ESPN article assessing the timescales, on the assumption that City are denied at both of their main avenues; 1) currently appealing the guilty verdict and 2) appealing the sanctions they will be issued by late Jan / early Feb 2027.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/50132069/manchester-city-guilty-premier-league-verdict-sanctions-appeals-explainer-whats-next

It's a decent read but the notable paragraphs in relation to your quote are:

"Let's say that Feb. 8 proves to be the day City get their sanctions; they would have to lodge an appeal against sanctions by Feb. 22. If an appeal process lasted the full 12 weeks, it would not conclude until May 17, just 13 days before the Premier League finishes on May 30. A 30-day period for the panel to announce its verdict would take the process beyond the end of the season -- potentially as late as June 17.

ESPN contacted the Premier League to ask whether a final sanction, issued in mid-June after the end of the league season, would apply to the 2026-27 season or held over until the 2027-28 season. But the league declined to comment beyond saying that the process is "private and confidential."

 

[Guildford Bee]

....the owners wanted to join that cartel...not break it up.... all of whom now have American owners.... this whole matter has nothing to do with the supporters,the players,and football as a sport....all the above teams owners will systematically destroy football if left unchecked.

You're right, break-up was the wrong phrase to use.

Regardless, I'm still struggling to work up any real anger towards them and would still prefer them to win the league than Arsenal.

I find the mock outrage from across football quite funny; their fans looked like they were having a brilliant time yesterday and are being criticised as if there was some sort of expectation that they'd walk respectfully into Anfield apologising one by one to the Liverpool fans.

 

[JCMcBee]

You're right, break-up was the wrong phrase to use.

Regardless, I'm still struggling to work up any real anger towards them and would still prefer them to win the league than Arsenal.

I find the mock outrage from across football quite funny; their fans looked like they were having a brilliant time yesterday and are being criticised as if there was some sort of expectation that they'd walk respectfully into Anfield apologising one by one to the Liverpool fans.

....Colin Bell is my all-time football hero...I had a Man City shirt with the badge in the middle when I was 6 years old living in Glasgow... they were my English team...then...I have no issue with Man City supporters or their current players...but I do with their owners....Bell, Summerbee, Corrigan,Book,Lee et al.... I'd like to think they do too.

 

[hanworthbee]

You're right, break-up was the wrong phrase to use.

Regardless, I'm still struggling to work up any real anger towards them and would still prefer them to win the league than Arsenal.

I find the mock outrage from across football quite funny; their fans looked like they were having a brilliant time yesterday and are being criticised as if there was some sort of expectation that they'd walk respectfully into Anfield apologising one by one to the Liverpool fans.

Yep was quite funny how the Liverpool fans were so outraged and then man city dicked all over them

I'm actually starting to think how amusing it'll be If they are cleared or get some paltry punishment at how apoplectic the other teams at the top of the league will be

 

[TorbayBee]

Yes the Liverpool fans act as if all the trophies City won were personally stolen from them hahaha . I hope we murder theem next week

 

[Jay Bee]

Am I the only one who isn’t really arsed about all of this?

I sort of agree. They obviously deserve to have the book thrown at them but it would be a stretch to say what they’ve done has had a direct impact on us. They cheated to break up the existing cartel of United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea, all clubs who I frankly despise.

I'm not sure if I'm going to be particularly gleeful or tearful when it's all settled
But,
I think it's important that there are punishments for breaking the rules. It becomes farcical if the league is won by a team who everyone now knows cheated to get there. Winning and losing is everything in elite football rightly or wrongly.

 

[WarrenBee]

Yep was quite funny how the Liverpool fans were so outraged and then man city dicked all over

This. I was probably in a minority of 1, but I was delighted to see City rip them a new one yesterday.

 

[LongLostBee]

Don't tell me the "auditors" were just taking the money and just signing off any old bullsh*t! That never happens!

I'm surprised the Big4 haven't created their own version of the Bronze Bull, but based on this, and put it overlooking the river around BlackFriars:
View attachment 69476

The gang are at it again!

Deloitte helped in falsifying documents to evade tax on Abramovich’s wealth, BBC finds

Backdated paperwork also made the Russian oligarch’s yachts and mansions disappear from accounts, investigation finds.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Jay Bee]

Don't tell me the "auditors" were just taking the money and just signing off any old bullsh*t! That never happens!

I'm surprised the Big4 haven't created their own version of the Bronze Bull, but based on this, and put it overlooking the river around BlackFriars:
View attachment 69476

I don't know if the auditor's have done wrong here, that will maybe come out later. The cheating was only uncovered because of a hack and they may well have been as obstructive to them as to the football authorities. But they then have to decide whether to sign the report.

Miguel Delaney's book mentioned that the big firms did not want to touch some forensic work that one of the authorities were doing on Man City (sorry can't remember when or which body now) because they were all afraid that getting involved in turning the heat up on Man City could upset their business interests in the Middle East. It would not be a surprise if the auditor's gave a clean report despite gaps in the answers to their questions for the same reason.

 

[LongLostBee]

I don't know if the auditor's have done wrong here, that will maybe come out later. The cheating was only uncovered because of a hack and they may well have been as obstructive to them as to the football authorities. But they then have to decide whether to sign the report.

Miguel Delaney's book mentioned that the big firms did not want to touch some forensic work that one of the authorities were doing on Man City (sorry can't remember when or which body now) because they were all afraid that getting involved in turning the heat up on Man City could upset their business interests in the Middle East. It would not be a surprise if the auditor's gave a clean report despite gaps in the answers to their questions for the same reason.

It doesn’t matter if they’re “obstructive”. If someone is obstructive and you can’t get the info to properly check and sign off the accounts then you don’t.
Or you do what criminals do…and sign them off anyway…and keep taking the giant pay packets for doing so.
Or you came up with the whole idea yourself anyway….

 

[Jay Bee]

It doesn’t matter if they’re “obstructive”. If someone is obstructive and you can’t get the info to properly check and sign off the accounts then you don’t.
Or you do what criminals do…and sign them off anyway…and keep taking the giant pay packets for doing so.
Or you came up with the whole idea yourself anyway….

I think I acknowledged that in my first paragraph.
Some obstruction is and negotiation happens all the time in this world. "we want to see X" <time passes> "we don't have X" "OK never mind, just give us something else...". I'm not saying it's OK but it's how these things end up working. At a much lower level I have seen businesses and auditors agree not to disclose something accounting standards say they should have because whatever it was was agreed to be relatively minor.

Nobody says they didn't receive the income, of course, it was about how it was recorded. The auditors may have felt that the distinction between sponsorship income and owner's funding wasn't critical for a privately owned company - on dodgy ground there and see below but maybe possible. Not all the users of the accounts, who are their stakeholders, care about the same thing as the PL and UEFA. City may have gone and got a branded "transfer pricing" document from a consultant that says that the Ethiad / Etihsat sponsorships were worth exactly what they were paid, and so passing the buck to whoever signed that.

The worst offence is they are supposed to be aware of other important regulations in that company's industry even though it's not a "PSR audit" they may have been negligent in overlooking things relevant to PSR but not to the accounts. Whether that means they were duty bound to resign as auditors if they thought there were PSR risks, I'm not sure.

FWIW I do tax these days and doubt there are any tax problems for them, though it's possible there could be something not yet highlighted.

 

[LongLostBee]

Some obstruction is and negotiation happens all the time in this world. "we want to see X" <time passes> "we don't have X" "OK never mind, just give us something else...". I'm not saying it's OK but it's how these things end up working.

Exactly my point. “This world” is a corrupt mess that’s long overdue much stricter regulation and enforcement. As it stands “audits” aren’t worth the very expensive paper they’re printed on, other than to rubber stamp wrongdoing and give the illusion of legitimacy. Much like the NOMAD system on AIM

 

[Gee Bee]

Exactly my point. “This world” is a corrupt mess that’s long overdue much stricter regulation and enforcement. As it stands “audits” aren’t worth the very expensive paper they’re printed on, other than to rubber stamp wrongdoing and give the illusion of legitimacy. Much like the NOMAD system on AIM

Not sure about corruption in auditors, I’ve always found them pretty incompetent

 

[Gee Bee]

I think I acknowledged that in my first paragraph.
Some obstruction is and negotiation happens all the time in this world. "we want to see X" <time passes> "we don't have X" "OK never mind, just give us something else...". I'm not saying it's OK but it's how these things end up working. At a much lower level I have seen businesses and auditors agree not to disclose something accounting standards say they should have because whatever it was was agreed to be relatively minor.

Nobody says they didn't receive the income, of course, it was about how it was recorded. The auditors may have felt that the distinction between sponsorship income and owner's funding wasn't critical for a privately owned company - on dodgy ground there and see below but maybe possible. Not all the users of the accounts, who are their stakeholders, care about the same thing as the PL and UEFA. City may have gone and got a branded "transfer pricing" document from a consultant that says that the Ethiad / Etihsat sponsorships were worth exactly what they were paid, and so passing the buck to whoever signed that.

The worst offence is they are supposed to be aware of other important regulations in that company's industry even though it's not a "PSR audit" they may have been negligent in overlooking things relevant to PSR but not to the accounts. Whether that means they were duty bound to resign as auditors if they thought there were PSR risks, I'm not sure.

FWIW I do tax these days and doubt there are any tax problems for them, though it's possible there could be something not yet highlighted.

Would there not be tax issues for individuals such as Mancini?

 

[bostonhanwell]

Point deductions for sure but also remove all the bogus income. £900 million plus extra income from prize money. The only way they could raise that is by stripping their squad bare.

 

[Banana]

Would there not be tax issues for individuals such as Mancini?

Probably not. It there are then it will be income tax and national insurance on the money he got paid for a non existent job in Dubai. However he have been paid this when he wasn't resident in the UK.

 

[Jay Bee]

Would there not be tax issues for individuals such as Mancini?

Probably not. It there are then it will be income tax and national insurance on the money he got paid for a non existent job in Dubai. However he have been paid this when he wasn't resident in the UK.

There could be but he may have declared all the income he received from his dual contract to the taxman. It would have depended on what advice he got personally.

He would have been tax resident in the UK whilst he worked here - tax residency usually lasts for the whole tax year except when you're first moving here of, I think, if leaving for good. So I reckon he would have been tax resident in the UK when he was doing sham work in Dubai... unless they agreed to sit on all the money and give it to him years down the line or after he'd been sacked and left the country. That would strike me as unusual.

And it depends whether it was sold to him as a tax dodge opportunity too. It doesn't sound like it was well disguised, it was reported that the day job and the dubai work were all one contract.

 

[Banana]

There could be but he may have declared all the income he received from his dual contract to the taxman. It would have depended on what advice he got personally.

He would have been tax resident in the UK whilst he worked here - tax residency usually lasts for the whole tax year except when you're first moving here of, I think, if leaving for good. So I reckon he would have been tax resident in the UK when he was doing sham work in Dubai... unless they agreed to sit on all the money and give it to him years down the line or after he'd been sacked and left the country. That would strike me as unusual.

And it depends whether it was sold to him as a tax dodge opportunity too. It doesn't sound like it was well disguised, it was reported that the day job and the dubai work were all one contract.

He could of course claim to be non-domiciled and claim that the Dubai job never was subject to UK tax.

 

[jonnamanuk]

as if too prove State Backed wealth has not IN ANY WAY been used to unfairly improve a team, Newcastle have allowed Coventry dismember them and leave their body parts in different places in the Midlands.
PIF must be relieved.

 

[Jay Bee]

He could of course claim to be non-domiciled and claim that the Dubai job never was subject to UK tax.

I'm less familiar with the details of these things now as it's been a number of years since I used them - but yes, he could have claim to have been non-domiciled at the time with limited downside. That is no longer possible for non-doms anyway.

 

[stevendamico]

I've been thinking about it more, and there is a persuasive argument that a demotion (or functional demotion from a points deduction) punishes clubs in the championship while rewarding an epl club that deserves to be relegated. I think there are two alternatives worth considering. 1) a temp expulsion for a season or two - epl goes down to 19 teams, with 3 at the bottom going down and 3 championship teams coming up. 2) a European Ban for as many seasons as they cheated.

Both of these in addition to financial and individual penalties.

 

[Banana]

epl goes down to 19 teams

This would be enormously unpopular in England. As it means some teams don't play every weekend.

 

[stevendamico]

This would be enormously unpopular in England. As it means some teams don't play every weekend.

Ah, good point.

 

[jbee]

I've been thinking about it more, and there is a persuasive argument that a demotion (or functional demotion from a points deduction) punishes clubs in the championship while rewarding an epl club that deserves to be relegated. I think there are two alternatives worth considering. 1) a temp expulsion for a season or two - epl goes down to 19 teams, with 3 at the bottom going down and 3 championship teams coming up. 2) a European Ban for as many seasons as they cheated.

Both of these in addition to financial and individual penalties.

I wouldn't be surprised if the EFL rejected them under the current ownership. They are effectively a dead parrot; not stunned, and only Haaland might be pining for the fjords. Man City as we have known them are finished and they're not ever coming back to the top table again. Everything from now on is a farce: the tedious wait for the unwinnable appeal to play out; the lawsuits; the attempt to leverage political influence. They will try everything but feel the anger in the country; they are done.

 

[londonlegal]

Am I the only one shouting at the television whilst Sky laud Steve Cooper‘s massive purchase of players for Nottingham Forest after they got to the Premiership? The owner clearly gambled on getting enough quality that it would overcome any penalty for breach of financial fair play rules and that is what happened. A smaller version of Manchester City. Not a matter for celebration in my opinion.

 

[whyteleafebee76]

I think things may change of extreme things happen. We know there are owners across Europe who would love it. So many US owners would welcome the creation of an NFL type closed shop. If you ban/destroy a team the owners will not their investment die , they will take it elsewhere.

As was shown last time, the backlash from fans showed that no supporters in this country would let this happen. City supporters would rather be in non league football than join a super league.

 

[hanworthbee]

I've been thinking about it more, and there is a persuasive argument that a demotion (or functional demotion from a points deduction) punishes clubs in the championship while rewarding an epl club that deserves to be relegated. I think there are two alternatives worth considering. 1) a temp expulsion for a season or two - epl goes down to 19 teams, with 3 at the bottom going down and 3 championship teams coming up. 2) a European Ban for as many seasons as they cheated.

Both of these in addition to financial and individual penalties.

We'd all lose out then as one fewer home game to make money on

 

[horshambees]

Am I the only one shouting at the television whilst Sky laud Steve Cooper‘s massive purchase of players for Nottingham Forest after they got to the Premiership? The owner clearly gambled on getting enough quality that it would overcome any penalty for breach of financial fair play rules and that is what happened. A smaller version of Manchester City. Not a matter for celebration in my opinion.

No you was not the only one shouting at the television.
Forest gambled got caught and copped a derisory points deduction and avoided relegation so it all worked out well in the end for them.
NFFC expected a fine so they knew exactly what they were doing.

City on the other hand are still saying we have done nothing wrong.
Even though they know they have.

 

[Hullbee]

Glasgow Rangers had to restart and it took them a while to return to the top. I didn’t think the Scottish FA would ever dish out such a punishment to one of the big two

 

[GuyBee]

Glasgow Rangers had to restart and it took them a while to return to the top. I didn’t think the Scottish FA would ever dish out such a punishment to one of the big two

I dont thnk the Scottish FA did, it was the SPL. They formed a new company to ditch their debts and the SPL had the balls to expel them. I am not convinved the EPL has the same gonads.

 

[hobbsy]

I dont thnk the Scottish FA did, it was the SPL. They formed a new company to ditch their debts and the SPL had the balls to expel them. I am not convinved the EPL has the same gonads.

It was the SPFL, Scottish Professional Football League who run all four divisions. They remerged with the SPL prior to that,.

 

[JCMcBee]

I dont thnk the Scottish FA did, it was the SPL. They formed a new company to ditch their debts and the SPL had the balls to expel them. I am not convinved the EPL has the same gonads.

Yep.... it's over to you EPL and HMGov...
but it's a completely different scenario at MCFC.... it's not just greedy unscrupulous businessmen who are involved.... it's a foreign state....the EPL and HMGov really need to look at themselves and review ownership/fit to practice policies in English football.....the game of football should not imo become a replacement for oil... when it runs out.

 

[GlasgowBee]

Etihad (along with other Gulf state airlines) also had some sort of a legal spat with American & Delta Airlines a few years ago, and managed to get a ruling in their favour that they were not state funded. The EPL findings is apparently refocusing the legal lenses across the pond and may be one of the reasons Etihad are so strongly appealing this judgement. There is a very big can of worms waiting to be opened!

 

[GuyBee]

It was the SPFL, Scottish Professional Football League who run all four divisions. They remerged with the SPL prior to that,.

Having spent far too long on Google, Rangers were expelles in June 2012. SFL and SPL merged in the summer of 2013. So my point stands that the SPL expelled them and subsequently the SFL accepted them in at the bottom tier

 

[SmiffyBee]

This should have been timed a lot better.
For example. Judgement and punishment in the summer, when the season ends.
After this season relegate them 2 divisions. But don't reveal this until May 31st.

 

[Untouchable]

If cited get relegated I thi

I hate it when people don’t finish their sen

 

[Judio1999]

This would be a proper punishment (If true)

Man City FFP: UEFA punishment leaked as City set for '7 to 10 year' ban from all competitions

Five of the charges were a failure to comply with UEFA's FFP rules. 😲

www.football365.com

 

[Banana]

This would be a proper punishment (If true)

Man City FFP: UEFA punishment leaked as City set for '7 to 10 year' ban from all competitions

Five of the charges were a failure to comply with UEFA's FFP rules. 😲

www.football365.com

You know that's bullshit as UEFA have already given City their punishment.

 

[ziggys_human]

I hate it when people don’t finish their sen

rather like many convicted crimin

 

[malkay]

This should have been timed a lot better.
For example. Judgement and punishment in the summer, when the season ends.
After this season relegate them 2 divisions. But don't reveal this until May 31st.

The short answer is that it wasn't possible to sort all this out in an off-season, whether it be the summer just gone, next summer or at the time the PL first became aware of City's wrongdoings in 2019.

The PL have a handbook which they must follow. It gives clubs the the right to appeal any verdict(s) against them and again if there are sanctions. The timescales are set out (see my link the the ESPN article further up this page).

If the PL don't follow their own due process to a T, City would have a strong claim against them when they inevitably take this matter to the courts...

 

[GuyBee]

The short answer is that it wasn't possible to sort all this out in an off-season, whether it be the summer just gone, next summer or at the time the PL first became aware of City's wrongdoings in 2019.

The PL have a handbook which they must follow. It gives clubs the the right to appeal any verdict(s) against them and again if there are sanctions. The timescales are set out (see my link the the ESPN article further up this page).

If the PL don't follow their own due process to a T, City would have a strong claim against them when they inevitably take this matter to the courts...

I think the independent commission on sanctions ( and the review of any appeal) could make their decisions quicker than they have to.

Also what are the FA doing? They need to make a decision with reference to the FA Cup. Imagine drawing City in Round 3, losing, and then City are found finally guilty and sanctions announced for the EPL?

 

[malkay]

I think the independent commission on sanctions ( and the review of any appeal) could make their decisions quicker than they have to.

Also what are the FA doing? They need to make a decision with reference to the FA Cup. Imagine drawing City in Round 3, losing, and then City are found finally guilty and sanctions announced for the EPL?

They could, but they won't. They'll take their time with it as the PL did, pouring over all the details and as City did formally appealing at their deadline.

 

[hanworthbee]

I think the independent commission on sanctions ( and the review of any appeal) could make their decisions quicker than they have to.

Also what are the FA doing? They need to make a decision with reference to the FA Cup. Imagine drawing City in Round 3, losing, and then City are found finally guilty and sanctions announced for the EPL?

They can't speed things up the timeline is out in the public domain

 

[StevieSteve]

They can't speed things up the timeline is out in the public domain

If you remember, they did with Forest when the max timeline would have been past the end of season - just because the Panel have, say, a month to publish a decision doesn't mean they can't do it in a fortnight

 

[brentford born & bred]

Assuming the guilty appeal is rejected I wonder if it is in the remit of the Independent Panel to consider a two tier form of sanctions akin to a plea bargain. Extremely severe sanctions that leave Mancheaty City no option but to appeal, or lesser sanctions on condition they don't appeal? Or have I been watching too much US legal drama on TV

 

[maddogging]

I’m absolutely delighted now that they cheated the scousers out of league titles !

 

[Sianist]

 

[Gawain]

My initial reaction was that Man City should simply be expelled from the PL. But as someone pointed out recently, that could cause them to be liquidated. Which in turn would screw a lot of other clubs who are owed money by them.

So maybe it might be better - if a long way short of ideal - just to deduct them so many points that they are guaranteed to be relegated to the Championship?