Manchester City Found Guilty Of FFP Breaches

[TeeJayBee]

1. Fine them a shedload of cash to pass to other EPL clubs as compensation and to EFL clubs right down the pyramid
2. Points deduction of 50 points per season to keep them mid / lower EPL for each of the next 10 years so they pay their debts to other clubs and suppliers. It’s an EPL problem which should not be foisted on the EFL although if they get relegated in the normal way, so be it.
3. Transfer embargo / restrictions and salaries cap to stop them continuing to hoover up the top talent
4. Force change of ownership. The current owners surely cannot be allowed to be anywhere near English football after what they’ve done (and no doubt are continuing to do)
5. Anything else which provides medium/ long term punishment without putting them out of business.

 

[Greybeard]

My initial reaction was that Man City should simply be expelled from the PL. But as someone pointed out recently, that could cause them to be liquidated. Which in turn would screw a lot of other clubs who are owed money by them.

So maybe it might be better - if a long way short of ideal - just to deduct them so many points that they are guaranteed to be relegated to the Championship?

That is a consideration. But remember that they do have valuable assets which in the event of liquidation could be used to pay creditors.

 

[BlueJayBee]

2. Points deduction of 50 points per season to keep them mid / lower EPL for each of the next 10 years so they pay their debts to other clubs and suppliers. It’s an EPL problem which should not be foisted on the EFL although if they get relegated in the normal way, so be it.

I like that idea. And, it should be the next 10 years that they are in the EPL so, if they get relegated after 3 years, for example, the remaining 7 years get applied if and when they get promoted again.

 

[Gawain]

That is a consideration. But remember that they do have valuable assets which in the event of liquidation could be used to pay creditors.

Maybe, but it might be scuppered if eg the assets aren't all actually in the name of MCFC, but in some UAE entity, registered in Panama etc.

And with their record, the owners can hardly be relied upon to have left themselves open, or make it easy for the liquidators to get their hands on them.

 

[TeeJayBee]

1. Fine them a shedload of cash to pass to other EPL clubs as compensation and to EFL clubs right down the pyramid
2. Points deduction of 50 points per season to keep them mid / lower EPL for each of the next 10 years so they pay their debts to other clubs and suppliers. It’s an EPL problem which should not be foisted on the EFL although if they get relegated in the normal way, so be it.
3. Transfer embargo / restrictions and salaries cap to stop them continuing to hoover up the top talent
4. Force change of ownership. The current owners surely cannot be allowed to be anywhere near English football after what they’ve done (and no doubt are continuing to do)
5. Anything else which provides medium/ long term punishment without putting them out of business.

And of course, strip them of the titles / trophies won

 

[JANORAK]

My initial reaction was that Man City should simply be expelled from the PL. But as someone pointed out recently, that could cause them to be liquidated. Which in turn would screw a lot of other clubs who are owed money by them.

So maybe it might be better - if a long way short of ideal - just to deduct them so many points that they are guaranteed to be relegated to the Championship?

114 x 10pts would just about achieve that! Smacks of overkill though, and should be finessed a little so that any sanction lasts for a few seasons. (See everybody else’s comments!)

 

[TW1Bee]

My initial reaction was that Man City should simply be expelled from the PL. But as someone pointed out recently, that could cause them to be liquidated. Which in turn would screw a lot of other clubs who are owed money by them.

So maybe it might be better - if a long way short of ideal - just to deduct them so many points that they are guaranteed to be relegated to the Championship?

When they won the league two years ago they accumulated 91 points. They already have seven wins out of seven and 21 points so therefore on the basis of two years ago they need to gain another 70 points . Highly unlikely but if they were to win all their remaining games as well and gain the maximum 114 points then a 90 point deduction would be needed to almost certainly relegate them. However a deduction well in excess of 120 points would be better as it would mean them starting in the Championship with a points deficit, how much of a deficit would need to be considered also as they could easily wipe that out by this time next year.

 

[Untouchable]

If true, I’ll be keen to see how they try and make the multi season points deductions stick.


View: https://x.com/mailsport/status/2112176027426283551?s=46&t=SQP7mje7Pimu8X-ugPnQnQ

 

[VitaminBee]

If true, I’ll be keen to see how they try and make the multi season points deductions stick.


View: https://x.com/mailsport/status/2112176027426283551?s=46&t=SQP7mje7Pimu8X-ugPnQnQ

All they'd need to do is come to some kind of agreement with the EFL, no? Giving the EFL a chunk of the money from the huge fine that City will inevitably get, to be divvied up between EFL clubs, should be enough of a sweetener for that I would think.

 

[hanworthbee]

That is a consideration. But remember that they do have valuable assets which in the event of liquidation could be used to pay creditors.

I wouldn't want them to be liquidated. A deduction and ideally force a sale like happened with chelsea

 

[Gazza Bee]

All they'd need to do is come to some kind of agreement with the EFL, no? Giving the EFL a chunk of the money from the huge fine that City will inevitably get, to be divvied up between EFL clubs, should be enough of a sweetener for that I would think.

Championship dont really want them but I reckon if they can come to an arrangement of say 100 point deduction so they will only last 1 season it could be enough of a sweetener to get buy in from EFL I guess. Maybe 3 * 100 points which effectively puts them in League Two just not straightaway.....also means at least 5 seasons out of EPL which seems fair to me.

 

[HerefordB]

I expect any sanctions will be a cop out/whitewash after the very expensive lawyers have had their say.
The PL is weak and corrupted by money. I have no doubt that there will be an attempt to present any punishment as fitting and purposeful, but it will not fit the serious offences committed.
So, football at the highest level in this Country will be forever tarnished because those who are supposed to uphold fairness are too damn weak and conflicted to stand up to the wealthy bullies.
It stinks...

 

[jbee]

I don't think the exact points deduction, fine etc really matters. What matters is that their titles are removed and the owners are forced to sell.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

I don't think the exact points deduction, fine etc really matters. What matters is that their titles are removed and the owners are forced to sell.

If the owners are forced to sell because of a rule change, that will of course affect Newcastle.

 

[jbee]

If the owners are forced to sell because of a rule change, that will of course affect Newcastle.

That would be heartbreaking.

 

[hanworthbee]

I expect any sanctions will be a cop out/whitewash after the very expensive lawyers have had their say.
The PL is weak and corrupted by money. I have no doubt that there will be an attempt to present any punishment as fitting and purposeful, but it will not fit the serious offences committed.
So, football at the highest level in this Country will be forever tarnished because those who are supposed to uphold fairness are too damn weak and conflicted to stand up to the wealthy bullies.
It stinks...

We've not had the punishment yet

 

[Jay Bee]

When they won the league two years ago they accumulated 91 points. They already have seven wins out of seven and 21 points so therefore on the basis of two years ago they need to gain another 70 points . Highly unlikely but if they were to win all their remaining games as well and gain the maximum 114 points then a 90 point deduction would be needed to almost certainly relegate them. However a deduction well in excess of 120 points would be better as it would mean them starting in the Championship with a points deficit, how much of a deficit would need to be considered also as they could easily wipe that out by this time next year.

This is not how points deductions work! I'm surprised a couple of people have referred to this type of rolling points deduction.

If you get deducted 120 points and finish the season on minus 20 points you come last in the league and get relegated, but you start next season on zero. Even if the PL and EFL are cooperating.
Sheffield Wednesday nearly finished last season on minus points (they made it to zero with a last day win) but it would never have have had any impact on the next season.

A multi season punishment is possible but it needs to be handed out as multiple punishments.

 

[aslan]

That would be heartbreaking.

Well, reading The Fish's posts begging for sympathy would be anyway

 

[cheshirebee]

1. Fine them a shedload of cash to pass to other EPL clubs as compensation and to EFL clubs right down the pyramid
2. Points deduction of 50 points per season to keep them mid / lower EPL for each of the next 10 years so they pay their debts to other clubs and suppliers. It’s an EPL problem which should not be foisted on the EFL although if they get relegated in the normal way, so be it.
3. Transfer embargo / restrictions and salaries cap to stop them continuing to hoover up the top talent
4. Force change of ownership. The current owners surely cannot be allowed to be anywhere near English football after what they’ve done (and no doubt are continuing to do)
5. Anything else which provides medium/ long term punishment without putting them out of business.

If all the above were actioned, they would effectively go out of business within 3 or 4 years. Who is going to buy or invest in any way in a club that have such restrictions and therefore can never make a return on any purchase price or further investment.
Who would ever play for them ? Academy kids only I suppose. Relegation would follow and if the points deduction were waiting for them if they ever got promoted back then there’s no incentive to get promoted and the spiral to oblivion would continue.
It shows that the punishment really has to be thought through to avoid major unintended consequences.
I think a one season points deduction that would guarantee relegation and then let new owners build back without their hands tied.

 

[SC]

Championship dont really want them but I reckon if they can come to an arrangement of say 100 point deduction so they will only last 1 season it could be enough of a sweetener to get buy in from EFL I guess. Maybe 3 * 100 points which effectively puts them in League Two just not straightaway.....also means at least 5 seasons out of EPL which seems fair to me.

The Championship might not want them but i'm sure the EFL would love to have them. If the PL has the balls to expel them and I was running the EFL, I'd be putting them down in League 2 at least. That way it'll take them a few years to get back, if they do, and it'll be a big coup re TV rights. EFL could make a lot of money selling TV rights. They'll get big audiences every time they show them, whether it be at Bromley or Sheff Weds or whatever big name ex PL team is in the Championship or lower. I'd be licking my lips at the prospect of City being expelled and would rather that than just relegated.

They will get fines, they will get compensation claims and those may be enough for the Saudis to jack it in, that's if they aren't removed as owners straight away. City won't die, these clubs don't but they'll have it hard for several years.

 

[GuyBee]

I don't think the exact points deduction, fine etc really matters. What matters is that their titles are removed and the owners are forced to sell.

Thats really not enough. you can take the titles off the record books, but all involved at City have still enjoyed 10 years of success.

It just encourages others to do the same (eg Newcastle, Slug Forest)

 

[bostonhanwell]

The key is making them remove every penny they dishonestly put into the club. They could only repay it by selling their squad.

 

[jbee]

Thats really not enough. you can take the titles off the record books, but all involved at City have still enjoyed 10 years of success.

It just encourages others to do the same (eg Newcastle, Slug Forest)

I don't mean they shouldn't be docked points etc, but it's not the important part. Whatever happens it will be disastrous for them so I wouldn't worry on that score.

 

[NickThe(Half)Greek]

If all the above were actioned, they would effectively go out of business within 3 or 4 years. Who is going to buy or invest in any way in a club that have such restrictions and therefore can never make a return on any purchase price or further investment.
Who would ever play for them ? Academy kids only I suppose. Relegation would follow and if the points deduction were waiting for them if they ever got promoted back then there’s no incentive to get promoted and the spiral to oblivion would continue.
It shows that the punishment really has to be thought through to avoid major unintended consequences.
I think a one season points deduction that would guarantee relegation and then let new owners build back without their hands tied.

It needs to be a severe enough punishment to reflect NINE years of cheating. A one season points deduction isn’t enough. It should be multiple seasons in which they have no route back into the Premier League or European competition. Not unreasonable in my view.

 

[BlueJayBee]

If the owners are forced to sell because of a rule change, that will of course affect Newcastle.

That would be a crying shame.

 

[The Pipe]

I have read all the posts suggesting draconian sanctions for City and, whilst all seem reasonable to me, I fear that a lot of you will, at the end of this process, be severely disappointed.

I hope I am wrong but there are to many outside interests involved to make thiis a simple exercise and with the money available to support City litigation is almost a certainty and we all know what happens when expensive Lawyers get involved !!!

 

[Wooburn Bee]

My initial reaction was that Man City should simply be expelled from the PL. But as someone pointed out recently, that could cause them to be liquidated. Which in turn would screw a lot of other clubs who are owed money by them.

So maybe it might be better - if a long way short of ideal - just to deduct them so many points that they are guaranteed to be relegated to the Championship?

That won’t be a punishment. They will break all records next season winning the Championship so have that trophy also and then challenge for premier league following season. Maybe they sell one big player but they will keep team together as am sure the players agents knew this was a possibility.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

I liked Johnny Vaughan's idea that they have to give away their entire squad like the US draft system where the best players start with the lowest teams.

Currently that would mean Sunderland get Haaland but you know full well that we'd get Rico Lewis.

 

[Jezybee]

… if they do, and it'll be a big coup re TV rights. EFL could make a lot of money selling TV rights.

Man City would try to manufacture a bespoke, individual deal, like the big clubs in Spain and Italy used to do, and sell the rights for broadcast in UAE to the State TV company for £2bn / season.

 

[Banana]

If all the above were actioned, they would effectively go out of business within 3 or 4 years.

They managed for a 100 years before. Including spells in the Third Division. Why can't they downsize and manage this time?

 

[cheshirebee]

They managed for a 100 years before. Including spells in the Third Division. Why can't they downsize and manage this time?

I’m no City apologist, but to answer your question: They had a single season ( not ‘spells’) in the Third Division and in that season and in several years at level two the owners had the incentive to invest for promotion knowing that they wouldn’t have a significant point deduction the next season and that there was no ceiling on where they could reach (eg. Europe etc).
Not saying they shouldn’t have a strong punishment, just that it needs to be well thought through.

 

[cheshirebee]

It needs to be a severe enough punishment to reflect NINE years of cheating. A one season points deduction isn’t enough. It should be multiple seasons in which they have no route back into the Premier League or European competition. Not unreasonable in my view.

No, no not unreasonable on many levels.
Just need to think through to avoid unintended consequences which may lead to default on debts and liquidation.

 

[Banana]

I’m no City apologist, but to answer your question: They had a single season ( not ‘spells’) in the Third Division and in that season and in several years at level two the owners had the incentive to invest for promotion knowing that they wouldn’t have a significant point deduction the next season and that there was no ceiling on where they could reach (eg. Europe etc).
Not saying they shouldn’t have a strong punishment, just that it needs to be well thought through.

OK,. so countless other teams have been relegated to the lower leagues from the PL and ALL of them have survived.

 

[cheshirebee]

OK,. so countless other teams have been relegated to the lower leagues from the PL and ALL of them have survived.

Yep, that’s my reco, sufficient points deduction to get them relegated but no subsequent annual points deduction in the PL to make promotion worthless (which was never the case with all the other clubs, ok except maybe Luton)

 

[Edmundo]

Whatever the initial sanction is, City will appeal it, so it needs to be extremely severe, as a reduction on appeal is probable.

 

[StevieSteve]

Whatever the initial sanction is, City will appeal it, so it needs to be extremely severe, as a reduction on appeal is probable.

I have never understood why just appealing seems to automatically result in a reduction in sentence.

The appeal panel needs to man up a bit.

 

[savvy 2210]

I have read all the posts suggesting draconian sanctions for City and, whilst all seem reasonable to me, I fear that a lot of you will, at the end of this process, be severely disappointed.

I hope I am wrong but there are to many outside interests involved to make thiis a simple exercise and with the money available to support City litigation is almost a certainty and we all know what happens when expensive Lawyers get involved !!!

It's very important IMO that justice must be done in the eyes of the fans. I don't think a snow job will be tolerated by the fans or clubs. With the FIFA saga going on confidence of the governing bodies is very low.
It is after all a entertaining industry, if City goes to the wall there is a whole pyramid of the leagues clubs to take there place. Will they be missed ? Only by City fans. Football would be better off without them and their attitude to the rules.

 

[GuyBee]

It needs to be a severe enough punishment to reflect NINE years of cheating. A one season points deduction isn’t enough. It should be multiple seasons in which they have no route back into the Premier League or European competition. Not unreasonable in my view.

NINE years. Do we really think they stopped in 2019? I appreciate that the charges only apply to this period, but this will come up to

 

[Greybeard]

Yes

Maybe, but it might be scuppered if eg the assets aren't all actually in the name of MCFC, but in some UAE entity, registered in Panama etc.

And with their record, the owners can hardly be relied upon to have left themselves open, or make it easy for the liquidators to get their hands on them.

 

[Greybeard]

Yes could be an issue though surely the players at least are registered in the name of MCFC. The stadium and other assets, who knows?

 

[Jay Bee]

Man City would try to manufacture a bespoke, individual deal, like the big clubs in Spain and Italy used to do, and sell the rights for broadcast in UAE to the State TV company for £2bn / season.

One of the conditions of playing in the league is that you accept the collective bargaining for TV rights. Villa and West Ham and others have had to put up with this in the Championship and so would Man City.

 

[Jay Bee]

NINE years. Do we really think they stopped in 2019? I appreciate that the charges only apply to this period, but this will come up to

Yes it's not really plausible is it.
"we realised we'd push our luck and so did everything by the book from 2018 onwards" doesn't really tally with the current public position of "we have irrefutable evidence that we never did anything wrong".

 

[JCMcBee]

I'm going to say this till I'm blue in the face....this situation will turn out to be very similar... with regards to punishment....not using 'sanctions'..... pathetic word....to what happened to Rangers in Scotland....MCFC gets sold and phoenix club starts again in Tier 4.... and if that's not what happens then it's because of politics....HMGov and the EPL had better start manning the barricades.

 

[TorbayBee]

I expect any sanctions will be a cop out/whitewash after the very expensive lawyers have had their say.
The PL is weak and corrupted by money. I have no doubt that there will be an attempt to present any punishment as fitting and purposeful, but it will not fit the serious offences committed.
So, football at the highest level in this Country will be forever tarnished because those who are supposed to uphold fairness are too damn weak and conflicted to stand up to the wealthy bullies.
It stinks...

What are you suggesting would be an appropriate punishment?

 

[Gawain]

Greybeard said: " Yes could be an issue though surely the players at least are registered in the name of MCFC."

I thought that if a club goes into liquidation, then the players automatically become free agents*. If so, then they have no value as "assets" for the liquidators to use to pay MCFC's debts; in fact the players would be laughing, since they could then command a whopping great signing-on fee and package from their choice of top clubs, leaving the MCFC's creditors with nothing.

* - Istr that that was the case when Rangers went bust?

 

[Gawain]

Yes it's not really plausible is it [that the rule-breaking ceased after 2019].
"we realised we'd push our luck and so did everything by the book from 2018 onwards" doesn't really tally with the current public position of "we have irrefutable evidence that we never did anything wrong".

Except that having used all the (early) dodgy money to elbow their way to the top table, since they've got there they're now bringing in such huge revenues that they possibly haven't needed to bend/break the rules any more. In fact, recent FFP, PSR and SCR measures have had the effect of "pulling the drawbridge" up behind the Big Six, thereby insulating them from the restrictions to which the other 14 are subject.

And whatever else one thinks of MCFC's owners (heavy censorship from me!), it's not just that they had the money, but also that they've used it very cleverly, like eg Abramovic/Chelsea, but unlike eg Man Utd, who've burned through similar amounts of cash with little or no return. I mean, look at MCFC's recent transfer record, which has been pretty good, by PL standards at least.

None of which is to give them a bye-ball on their activities since 2019 etc, but I can't see why the PL would have stopped investigating at that stage if there was good evidence of continued wrongdoing.

 

[Jay Bee]

Except that having used all the (early) dodgy money to elbow their way to the top table, since they've got there they're now bringing in such huge revenues that they possibly haven't needed to bend/break the rules any more. In fact, recent FFP, PSR and SCR measures have had the effect of "pulling the drawbridge" up behind the Big Six, thereby insulating them from the restrictions to which the other 14 are subject.

And whatever else one thinks of MCFC's owners (heavy censorship from me!), it's not just that they had the money, but also that they've used it very cleverly, like eg Abramovic/Chelsea, but unlike eg Man Utd, who've burned through similar amounts of cash with little or no return. I mean, look at MCFC's recent transfer record, which has been pretty good, by PL standards at least.

None of which is to give them a bye-ball on their activities since 2019 etc, but I can't see why the PL would have stopped investigating at that stage if there was good evidence of continued wrongdoing.

You are right that higher revenue clubs have that advantage under PSR.

I just don't believe they have legitimately achieved higher income than Arsenal and Man U without continuing to inflate sponsorship income.

View: https://x.com/KieranMaguire/status/2105041464451621060

The inflated figure was £232m in 2018 and we're expected to consider that they cleaned up their act and also increased it to £345m six years later?

Being a successful club will have helped them increase income, certainly. I just don't believe they would have completely stopped breaking the rules eight years ago when under no immediate threat of punishment... they thought they wouldn't get caught.

 

[Gawain]

You are right that higher revenue clubs have that advantage under PSR.

I just don't believe they have legitimately achieved higher income than Arsenal and Man U without continuing to inflate sponsorship income.

View: https://x.com/KieranMaguire/status/2105041464451621060

The inflated figure was £232m in 2018 and we're expected to consider that they cleaned up their act and also increased it to £345m six years later?

Being a successful club will have helped them increase income, certainly. I just don't believe they would have completely stopped breaking the rules eight years ago when under no immediate threat of punishment... they thought they wouldn't get caught.

Tbf though, success does breed success, so that eg getting to a CL Final in 2021 and winning it in 2023 must have brought in huge extra sponsorship and advertising revenues etc, esp in the expanded stadium.

That said, Maguire certainly knows his stuff, so you may well be right about their post-2019 dealings.

Maybe the PL should hammer them now for the next two or three seasons, then just when they've climbed back up to the PL again, hit them with another 115 charges for the period 2019-2026!

 

[jbee]

Tbf though, success does breed success, so that eg getting to a CL Final in 2021 and winning it in 2023 must have brought in huge extra sponsorship and advertising revenues etc, esp in the expanded stadium.

That said, Maguire certainly knows his stuff, so you may well be right about their post-2019 dealings.

Maybe the PL should hammer them now for the next two or three seasons, then just when they've climbed back up to the PL again, hit them with another 115 charges for the period 2019-2026!

They haven't hugely increased their revenue. They still have a mid-sized fanbase. Their games on sky still attract nowhere near what their rivals do. You're drinking their koolaid. It's all a lie.

 

[Mikey Bee]

So do we actually have a date when the appeal will be held or when the final decision will be made?

Until then, everything else is just endless speculation.

Personally, I'd take the approach suggested by General Cheeseburger but I may be in the minority...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nka88nvys-U&t=73s