Our best players won't agree new contracts ?

Bigbee · 6 Oct 2015

Is this true? That would explain the body language. I didnt want to post the article on 5 different player threads so started a new one

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/10/0...ct-talks-stall-with-stars-including-harlee-d/

maddogging · 6 Oct 2015

No surprise, they've all been playing below par anyway, doesn't say much for any of them that they have been unable to pull up their socks and dig in this season. As alluded to in other threads, it might take a complete clear out to carry on. Hopefully we can stay up this season and then work on it

belvederebee · 6 Oct 2015

Bees bound to comply with financial regs so limited to what they can offer. That's life.

The Pipe · 6 Oct 2015

Footballers will always look for financial security, they have seen what those that have left are earning and no doubt want the same, irrespective of whether the club can, or is able, to afford

If the fact they are not getting what they want means they are sulking or not giving their all then let them follow the money. It does seem to be weighing on their minds, however only one of them is out of contract in the Summer, the others are contracted till midway through next season

Perhaps someone needs to have a word in their ears and point out that if they don't perform to a decent standard then when they move on their pay cheques might not be at the level they want !!!!

BURFORD BEE · 6 Oct 2015

My view fwiw is to find a nucleus of players who really want to play for the club, pay them the going rate, let the whinging uncommitted ones go provided the price is right, and build a side around them hopefully with a manager/coach who can inspire them to play above themselves.
Rotten apples who are malcontents need to go before they cause any more damage.
All this s*** was I believe festering beneath the surface in the second half of last season. Possibly the reason for Warburton not wanting to bring anyone else in for fear of what it might lead to.
The result has been the product of keeping the lid on a boiling pot.
If its not sorted out anyone coming in will either be sidelined by a cabal of the old guard or tainted by it.

davewfilms · 6 Oct 2015

Not surprised that they want to leave as there performances on the pitch hasn't been great and must make it difficult for all the new players to unite into a group if these players dont want to be here,maybe it was part of the reason marinus got fired as he failed to unite the players into a group,and this was one of our bigger strengths last season the togetherness of the group of players.
So hopefully mr carsley will be able to unite the dressing room or even try to sign a experienced player to unite the dressing room now that craig and douglas have left.
Or if not successful get rid and get in players that wont sulk because a few of there pals have left and that want to play for the club.

Brain-dead Bee · 6 Oct 2015

Not sure that they necessarily want to leave, but they may well feel that last year's success has raised their market value, so they want to keep their options open. Will always (post-Bosman) be a concern for a club with one of the smaller (I guess) budgets in its division

wanderer paul · 6 Oct 2015

That website, hitc, has got so much wrong recently, especially regarding the ins and outs of players over the summer, it isn't worth reading.

We know Harlee has not signed a new contract. We also know that the players who left have received nice contracts on very good money. Maybe with the exception of JD?!

Therefore, players probably expect Brentford to start giving contracts in the £10k a week plus bracket.

If they want to go, then go, don't waste our time pleading to stay and then move on because a club offered £12k a week when Brentford could only offer £6k a week.

Football for players is all about the money. Very very few stay because they love the club.

Judge probably wanted out in the summer, as he saw his buddy's all leave for good money. I'm not too sure that he wants to be here now.

As we always say, we will all be here every year, the players come and go, Brentford FC will continue. That's who I support.

BURFORD BEE · 6 Oct 2015

Brain-dead Bee said:
Not sure that they necessarily want to leave, but they may well feel that last year's success has raised their market value, so they want to keep their options open. Will always (post-Bosman) be a concern for a club with one of the smaller (I guess) budgets in its division

Might I suggest that the way many of them are playing at the moment that their market value and salary expectations might not be quite as rosy as they think.

jlove · 6 Oct 2015

At this time, there is no pressure to sign a renewed contract unless there is a significant increase in take-home pay. With the current uncertainties, it is only natural to take a 'wait and see' approach. I don't think this is something we need to our over-burdened panic list just yet.

Bungy Bee · 6 Oct 2015

Not wanting to sign new contracts.....get a life you lot...not many of you are Legends then.... :nono:

...You Reds...

shouldbee · 6 Oct 2015

jlove said:
At this time, there is no pressure to sign a renewed contract unless there is a significant increase in take-home pay. With the current uncertainties, it is only natural to take a 'wait and see' approach. I don't think this is something we need to our over-burdened panic list just yet.

Absolutely right and all this turning on the players doesn't really help with morale does it ?

condorman · 6 Oct 2015

I think this might be the main flaw in our long term plan actually, unless we can get promoted. We lost players in the summer because they could earn more elsewhere.

YouReds123 · 6 Oct 2015

maddogging said:
No surprise, they've all been playing below par anyway, doesn't say much for any of them that they have been unable to pull up their socks and dig in this season. As alluded to in other threads, it might take a complete clear out to carry on. Hopefully we can stay up this season and then work on it

Judge has been our best outfield player this season. I'm baffled as to how you can say he's been playing "below par".

EASTBRISTOLBEE7 · 6 Oct 2015

condorman said:
I think this might be the main flaw in our long term plan actually, unless we can get promoted. We lost players in the summer because they could earn more elsewhere.

To be honest if we had gained promotion a lot of them would,nt have been good enough to play at that level anyway so would have been released .It does make me laugh when i see the list of players who will not sign new contracts , they obviously have high opinions of their own ability which will probably see them on the bench of another championship club

NorthamptonBee · 6 Oct 2015

YouReds123 said:
Judge has been our best outfield player this season. I'm baffled as to how you can say he's been playing "below par".

He was as poor as I've ever seen him at Derby, no heart, no movement, just simply a guy with the world on his shoulders, I'm a paid up member of the Judgey fan club but he's not at it at all IMO, he should remember what's happened when he's jumped higher before.

Shirley Bee · 6 Oct 2015

BURFORD BEE said:
My view fwiw is to find a nucleus of players who really want to play for the club, pay them the going rate, let the whinging uncommitted ones go provided the price is right, and build a side around them hopefully with a manager/coach who can inspire them to play above themselves.
Rotten apples who are malcontents need to go before they cause any more damage.
All this s*** was I believe festering beneath the surface in the second half of last season. Possibly the reason for Warburton not wanting to bring anyone else in for fear of what it might lead to.
The result has been the product of keeping the lid on a boiling pot.
If its not sorted out anyone coming in will either be sidelined by a cabal of the old guard or tainted by it.

I think your first sentence is a ridiculous oversimplification. If what you are suggesting were the reality, then we would be on a downward spiral into the lower divisions. MB's approach is intended to provide a solution to being a small club in
a big pond where money talks and there is no loyalty.
What is your evidence for the "festering" in the second half of last season? That we only reached the play-offs rather than getting automatic promotion?
I agree with your last sentence, but would point the finger at management rather than the players.

BURFORD BEE · 6 Oct 2015

Shirley Bee said:
I think your first sentence is a ridiculous oversimplification. If what you are suggesting were the reality, then we would be on a downward spiral into the lower divisions. MB's approach is intended to provide a solution to being a small club in
a big pond where money talks and there is no loyalty.
What is your evidence for the "festering" in the second half of last season? That we only reached the play-offs rather than getting automatic promotion?
I agree with your last sentence, but would point the finger at management rather than the players.

Oh sorry!

tobymugdo · 6 Oct 2015

The Pipe said:
Footballers will always look for financial security, they have seen what those that have left are earning and no doubt want the same, irrespective of whether the club can, or is able, to afford

If the fact they are not getting what they want means they are sulking or not giving their all then let them follow the money. It does seem to be weighing on their minds, however only one of them is out of contract in the Summer, the others are contracted till midway through next season

Perhaps someone needs to have a word in their ears and point out that if they don't perform to a decent standard then when they move on their pay cheques might not be at the level they want !!!!

Do you think Jake Bidwell strikes you as someone who would sulk and not perform to 100%?

The reason why these said players are underperforming is because they are now playing in a far worse team and coaching staff than last season.

Also I think Harlee has been brilliant this season and you cannot knock Judges commitment when on the pitch.

will · 6 Oct 2015

Their body language certainly worries me. I always look for Judge after the game when we are applauding the players, win lose or draw. Even after Preston he was heading straight for the dressing room, shoulders slumped. It's been the same with most of the 'old guard' from last season, none of them seem to want to be here anymore.

I think it's sad but the best way forward might be to sever ties in January and next summer, take the money and rebuild. Apart from Judge none of the players mentioned would be that big a loss and definitely replaceable based on their form this season.

ruislip bee · 6 Oct 2015

will said:
Their body language certainly worries me. I always look for Judge after the game when we are applauding the players, win lose or draw. Even after Preston he was heading straight for the dressing room, shoulders slumped. It's been the same with most of the 'old guard' from last season, none of them seem to want to be here anymore.

I think it's sad but the best way forward might be to sever ties in January and next summer, take the money and rebuild. Apart from Judge none of the players mentioned would be that big a loss and definitely replaceable based on their form this season.

Well that will make them all feel a lot better!

Hamburger Hill · 6 Oct 2015

tobymugdo said:
Do you think Jake Bidwell strikes you as someone who would sulk and not perform to 100%?

The reason why these said players are underperforming is because they are now playing in a far worse team and coaching staff than last season.

Also I think Harlee has been brilliant this season and you cannot knock Judges commitment when on the pitch.

Welcome back Toby...

I don't think Jake is a 'sulker' but perhaps not a true leader of men (yet!)

Players can underperform for many reasons - not sure we can say definitely it's a worse team than last year and given that we don't see the training ground activity I couldn't even comment...

Agree Harlee has performed well and I wouldn't ever knock Judge's commitment on the pitch as he has worked his socks off in every game I have seen.

Uncertainty and envy are all part of a pro footballers genetic makeup - invariably the first question they ask each other is "how much are you on?" and having seen Andre and others move on for much much better wages will certainly get them thinking...

If I could offer one piece of advice to LC it would be to harness that desire in the players by pointing out that if they are performing well as part of a successful team that is much more likely to put them "in the shop window" come January and that the club wouldn't stand in their way if the price was right..(so simple this management malarkey!)

will · 6 Oct 2015

ruislip bee said:
Well that will make them all feel a lot better!

I wish I could say something more positive about them but I'm not here to spare their feelings. We've all seen that they're quality players but they're not performing at the moment.

Hullbee · 6 Oct 2015

Maybe we have said we won't open negiotations until a clean sheet is achieved!!!

Tunis Bee · 6 Oct 2015

Think the problem is we either cannot afford, or are unwilling to offer the going rate for decent Championship players. I understand we have financial constraints to consider, but it seems that until we are established at Lionel Road then the club may well seem like a revolving door of good players not staying too long. Unfortunate, but may just be the way it is.

TadB · 6 Oct 2015

I cannot disagree over much with the various comments made so far in the Thread however on the plus side the Club with the exception of Harlee Dean have at least opened talks early enough to be able to know exactly where the Club will stand next Summer. It is a great shame that no one had the foresight to do the same in respect of Harlee who will either leave for nothing in the summer or cheaply in January. Any player who reaches the end of the season without signing a Contract extension should be sold without any more discussion. Yes, it will be very sad to lose the likes of Jake Bidwell but at least with a decent price for him we at least have a chance to buy a reasonable replacement. FFP should not be an issue as the player signing an extension can still be sold when and as necessary and with a long contract his price should increase. No player should under any circumstances be allowed the opportunity to run down his Contract. It is in such matters that the club will have to rely on the 'Expertise' of our two D's of S ? I do not wish to divert from the subject but this is another example of the 'New Stats Model' for doing things.

Gee Bee · 6 Oct 2015

condorman said:
I think this might be the main flaw in our long term plan actually, unless we can get promoted. We lost players in the summer because they could earn more elsewhere.

Isn't the long term plan to have ready made replacements coming through from an ever improving youth system and identify young global talent. Similar to what Southampton are doing.
A long term plan is just that, long term, looking solely as it currently stands is short term.
You could look at many clubs and they have players with 18 month or less to run on their contracts, it is how football works these days. Players and their agents dictate.

The Pipe · 6 Oct 2015

tobymugdo said:
Do you think Jake Bidwell strikes you as someone who would sulk and not perform to 100%?

The reason why these said players are underperforming is because they are now playing in a far worse team and coaching staff than last season.

Also I think Harlee has been brilliant this season and you cannot knock Judges commitment when on the pitch.

Don't think Jake has played as well this year, have not seen the Judge of last season yet, harlee is probably the exception, Toumani is back to where he was when not considered good enough and possibly off to Portsmouth

Very easy to say they are playing in a worse team and can't argue that the likes of Andre etc are missed, however as experienced pros it is up to them to lift their game and help the new arrivals rather than hiding behind a " poor team" excuse

I have great loyalty to my club but not necessarily to the players who come and go

If you believe those players are performing at the same levels, fair enough but my impression is that is not the case

condorman · 6 Oct 2015

Gee Bee said:
Isn't the long term plan to have ready made replacements coming through from an ever improving youth system and identify young global talent. Similar to what Southampton are doing.
A long term plan is just that, long term, looking solely as it currently stands is short term.
You could look at many clubs and they have players with 18 month or less to run on their contracts, it is how football works these days. Players and their agents dictate.

OK it may be the flaw in our short to mid term plan. I think we may have underestimated what impact having to almost completely change a team might have. We are learning this lesson currently. Lets hope we are better equipped to deal with it in the future

Gee Bee · 6 Oct 2015

condorman said:
OK it may be the flaw in our short to mid term plan. I think we may have underestimated what impact having to almost completely change a team might have. We are learning this lesson currently. Lets hope we are better equipped to deal with it in the future

I would suspect there are already plans in place to mitigate any player losses. As has been said only Harlee is out of contract at the end of this season. There will always be a constant turnover of players and not all transfers in will be a success. It is improving the risks not extinguishing them.

condorman · 6 Oct 2015

Gee Bee said:
I would suspect there are already plans in place to mitigate any player losses. As has been said only Harlee is out of contract at the end of this season. There will always be a constant turnover of players and not all transfers in will be a success. It is improving the risks not extinguishing them.

Yes to turnover of players, but I think we are currently learning that we've tried to change too much at the same time, partly caused by the wages offered by other clubs. Would you agree?

NorthamptonBee · 6 Oct 2015

condorman said:
Yes to turnover of players, but I think we are currently learning that we've tried to change too much at the same time, partly caused by the wages offered by other clubs. Would you agree?

I do think that the changes have happened in strange circumstances, the team got decimated, the manager moved on for reasons that we don't need to go over, it's fairly unusual that both of those things happen with such severity, the boys that plan the new stuff have to get it right and by their own admission that hasn't been the case, we've just got to trust that "they" get it right or get it stabilised this time around, this 2nd season was always going to be a massive test anyway and we've bloody tested ourselves, using words that we heard last season, we've got to have learnt from this and getting to Jan with points and fresh impetus via players on loan and hefty management input is huge, then the crucial recruitment month is going to be fun, maybe fun as in watching Dr Who from behind the sofa as a kid fun though.

Idaho Bee · 6 Oct 2015

condorman said:
I think this might be the main flaw in our long term plan actually, unless we can get promoted. We lost players in the summer because they could earn more elsewhere.

We've always been a selling club. Difference now is we get a decent valuation for our players whereas before they went for peanuts. Southampton are a selling club and it seems to be working well for them.

condorman · 6 Oct 2015

Idaho Bee said:
We've always been a selling club. Difference now is we get a decent valuation for our players whereas before they went for peanuts. Southampton are a selling club and it seems to be working well for them.

Yes but Southampton compete on wage with a number of their rivals within the division. I think we are currently struggling to do this and it has impacted on us.

NorthamptonBee · 6 Oct 2015

condorman said:
Yes but Southampton compete on wage with a number of their rivals within the division. I think we are currently struggling to do this and it has impacted on us.

The Warbs' loyalty amongst the players and the knowledge of what they could get elsewhere did more damage than expected methinks, the longer we are in this league then the better on the wages front and hopefully we employ the right man to guide it all as Head Coach. It's a job and a half and far from easy, the DoFs need to make it happen this time.

wayfarer172 · 6 Oct 2015

Would someone be kind enough to explain to me how this ''Fair Play'' thingy works. Much obliged. I think I'm right in saying that a team who gets relegated from the Premiershite, gets a parachute payment worth MILLIONS, or do I have that wrong?

BURFORD BEE · 6 Oct 2015

The Pipe said:
Don't think Jake has played as well this year, have not seen the Judge of last season yet, harlee is probably the exception, Toumani is back to where he was when not considered good enough and possibly off to Portsmouth

Very easy to say they are playing in a worse team and can't argue that the likes of Andre etc are missed, however as experienced pros it is up to them to lift their game and help the new arrivals rather than hiding behind a " poor team" excuse

I have great loyalty to my club but not necessarily to the players who come and go

If you believe those players are performing at the same levels, fair enough but my impression is that is not the case

Well said

BURFORD BEE · 6 Oct 2015

wayfarer172 said:
Would someone be kind enough to explain to me how this ''Fair Play'' thingy works. Much obliged. I think I'm right in saying that a team who gets relegated from the Premiershite, gets a parachute payment worth MILLIONS, or do I have that wrong?

No you are quite correct only its 10s of millions for 3 seasons I believe

billy1996bichon · 6 Oct 2015

Well let's see if some of the boys earn that contract first anyway!!!!!!!!!

wayfarer172 · 6 Oct 2015

BURFORD BEE said:
No you are quite correct only its 10s of millions for 3 seasons I believe

Thanks for your reply Mr BB. So, if you get promoted then relegated straight away, you are laughing all the way to the Bank. Surely that's not fair is it?

Tunis Bee · 6 Oct 2015

condorman said:
Yes but Southampton compete on wage with a number of their rivals within the division. I think we are currently struggling to do this and it has impacted on us.

No they can't. They went through similar the summer before last - lost a head coach who had got them performing near the top of the league and all of their best players were picked off by bigger teams who can offer higher wages, made sure they kept certain players they deemed indispensable. Admittedly they didn't have the injury crisis to the same extent of ours, but what they did get right is getting in the right man as a replacement to Pochettino, which is the thing we haven't done and has resulted in where we are to a fairly large degree.

condorman · 6 Oct 2015

Tunis Bee said:
No they can't. They went through similar the summer before last - lost a head coach who had got them performing near the top of the league and all of their best players were picked off by bigger teams who can offer higher wages, made sure they kept certain players they deemed indispensable. Admittedly they didn't have the injury crisis to the same extent of ours, but what they did get right is getting in the right man as a replacement to Pochettino, which is the thing we haven't done and has resulted in where we are to a fairly large degree.

Two points:
1) The replacements bought by Southampton settled quicker at the required standard
2) They DID also have some players in the wings (e.g. Targett) which helped a bit, and as GeeBee said is definitely part of our longer term plan. He's not been outstanding but it's been quite encouraging seeing Josh Clarke try and make a fist of replacing Moses in the absence of Colin

mhead bee · 6 Oct 2015

wayfarer172 said:
Would someone be kind enough to explain to me how this ''Fair Play'' thingy works. Much obliged. I think I'm right in saying that a team who gets relegated from the Premiershite, gets a parachute payment worth MILLIONS, or do I have that wrong?

I am sure someone will fill in the gaping gaps in my explanation, but we basically have to trade within a certain limit which is defined by our turnover. For example a rich owner can not just spend billions on players unless the club is turning over enough to pay for it. This will raise the question as to how chelsea, QPR and man city etc get away with it, the simple answer is they just do it anyway. I expect it is a mixture of having enough clout to pay the fines that may come their way, not actually believing anything will ever happen, having a reasonable case under law to challenge any such fine and having 150M odd given to them by the premiership each year anyway. There are also sanctions dished out to prevent teams buying players for a period of time I believe, Chelsea had one last year and couldn't procure a player for 2 or 3 windows (I think was FFP, maybe not though).

The teams that get relegated from the prem get 3 years worth of parachute payments, this is justified as they claim to have horrific wage bills when they go down and on championship income they are forced to go bust like pompey and others have done. The reality is that they went sh*t or bust in the premiership with no real financial planning and let harry redknapp loose with the cheque book as such is his way he ruined them, also most clubs build in relegation clauses into their pay structure so the parachute payments do nothing other than allow them to dominate the lower divisions.

MB has a different plan, by abiding by FFP we do two things, build a sustainable business model and avoid any potential shenanigans if the FFP becomes an issue.

Platini would have you believe that the FFP exists purely to avoid clubs getting into bother, the truth is that he did it to stop English clubs dominating because the thieving crook hates us. After the huge increase in prem money dished out this season he relaxed the FFP restrictions to allow the europeans clubs compete with us, if avoiding debt was the real issue he could never have done that.

mhead bee · 6 Oct 2015

wayfarer172 said:
Thanks for your reply Mr BB. So, if you get promoted then relegated straight away, you are laughing all the way to the Bank. Surely that's not fair is it?

Yes you are, and no its not.

Hence why MW's refusal to accept new players in January to not upset his mates in the team went down like a bucket of cold sick with the Brentford powers that be. Had we got the players in and got promoted then the new ground and a debt free club for the foreseeable future was within our grasp, all bought and paid for.

Gee Bee · 6 Oct 2015

mhead bee said:
Yes you are, and no its not.

Hence why MW's refusal to accept new players in January to not upset his mates in the team went down like a bucket of cold sick with the Brentford powers that be. Had we got the players in and got promoted then the new ground and a debt free club for the foreseeable future was within our grasp, all bought and paid for.

Agreed but doesn't guarantee it would happen. Derby spent big in January and fell away

BURFORD BEE · 6 Oct 2015

It's certainly not fair. It's one of the reasons I believe that MB wanted to go for broke last January. If you go up and then come straight down again you are still able to compete with the clubs that have poached our best players. I have a feeling that MB saw it coming back then that clubs like Hull and Burnley would find it all too easy to entice the likes of Moses and Andre.
To add insult to injury the parachute payments count as income and therefore don't cause a problem with FFP.

wayfarer172 · 6 Oct 2015

mhead bee said:
I am sure someone will fill in the gaping gaps in my explanation, but we basically have to trade within a certain limit which is defined by our turnover. For example a rich owner can not just spend billions on players unless the club is turning over enough to pay for it. This will raise the question as to how chelsea, QPR and man city etc get away with it, the simple answer is they just do it anyway. I expect it is a mixture of having enough clout to pay the fines that may come their way, not actually believing anything will ever happen, having a reasonable case under law to challenge any such fine and having 150M odd given to them by the premiership each year anyway. There are also sanctions dished out to prevent teams buying players for a period of time I believe, Chelsea had one last year and couldn't procure a player for 2 or 3 windows (I think was FFP, maybe not though).

The teams that get relegated from the prem get 3 years worth of parachute payments, this is justified as they claim to have horrific wage bills when they go down and on championship income they are forced to go bust like pompey and others have done. The reality is that they went sh*t or bust in the premiership with no real financial planning and let harry redknapp loose with the cheque book as such is his way he ruined them, also most clubs build in relegation clauses into their pay structure so the parachute payments do nothing other than allow them to dominate the lower divisions.

MB has a different plan, by abiding by FFP we do two things, build a sustainable business model and avoid any potential shenanigans if the FFP becomes an issue.

Platini would have you believe that the FFP exists purely to avoid clubs getting into bother, the truth is that he did it to stop English clubs dominating because the thieving crook hates us. After the huge increase in prem money dished out this season he relaxed the FFP restrictions to allow the europeans clubs compete with us, if avoiding debt was the real issue he could never have done that.

Thankyou so much for your explanation. Good Lad, things are clearer on that issue now. :beer:

wayfarer172 · 6 Oct 2015

Cheers BB :beer:

Bill Benn · 6 Oct 2015

I expect there are a lot of league 1 teams ready to pounce

mhead bee · 6 Oct 2015

Gee Bee said:
Agreed but doesn't guarantee it would happen. Derby spent big in January and fell away

Of course you a right, but not buying the players almost guarantees you won't make it, at least they bought a ticket.

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