Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

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shaggy

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Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

OK Guys, here it is straight. You know all of this, but from some of the posts you seem to be trying to ignore facts.

1. No-one is prepared to finance ongoing losses for Brentford FC - not Ron, not Bees United and certainly not a bank manager. We therefore need to get to break-even asap. preferably by the start of next season. At the very least we need to have a clear and achievable plan to get to break-even by the end of next season as more player contracts expire.

2. Regardless as to whether Ron or Bees United are at the helm, this will involve hard decisions. Good players will have to go, either sold to eat into the debt or simply let go to reduce the outgoings. We all know the well-rehearsed arguments about good football bringing in the crowds, but that simply isn't the case for Brentford, is it? Very successful season, good football etc etc and we are not attracting enough people to justify the cost base. So costs have to be cut.

3. Immediate hard decisions. No contracts should be renewed or extended. This will not only allow us to reduce the wageroll, but will also give us a chance to benefit from some of the "re-alignment" of salaries resulting from the ITV Digital fiasco. We may well find that having Coppell, Evans, Lloyd, and Ivar leave as of now actually saves the club - I can't imagine anything worse than having our most highly paid resources on high-salary long term contracts when all the salaries in the market are going to be dropping! And if clubs that are as good as bankrupt already are prepared to pay high wages then good luck to them, 'cos I reckon they won't be around for long and their stadium might be available on the cheap!

4. None of this eats into out existing debt, which is costing us the best part of half a mill each year to pay the interest on. I can't see we've got a cats chance in hell of actually becoming so profitable that we can pay off the debt, so we have to sell GP and move somewhere pretty damn quick. That should not only give us access to new revenues (the hospitality etc) but also save us all the interest costs. We might even be able to keep a decent player or two as a result!

So - get real and stop whinging. We're all dissapointed that we're not in the first division, but sniping is not going to help us through this. Wake up aand smell the coffee! I think Coppell is an excellent manager, but he is also a)expensive and b)not prepared to try to succeed when the best players will regularly be sold and he'll be left with kids and reserves. So be it. We need a manager who is prepared to take those kids and make them fight for our survival. If Coppell has decided that's a fight he can do without then he goes with my blessing. He's done great things for us this season, and if he isn't prepared to last the struggle in the next season then the biggest favour he can do us is to leave now. Don't criticise him or the club, thank them both for being grown up enough to make some hard decisions.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Well said Shaggy.

I think its hard for us to get over this season, personally I was prepared for yesterday and am not that annoyed, disappointed maybe but not annoyed.

I knew yesterday that it was the last time we were going to see some of those players/manager, now thats why I think it was strange that so many people left before applauding the team for their efforts over the season.

The honeymoon is over now this is to real reality of having a big debt and little support. Never expect us to purchase a player again, and if we do sign someone for money then its a bonus, but from now on never expect and we won't be disappointed.

If we don't have Coppell next season, it will be a struggle and I would imagine us a Third/Second Division team jumping between the to, starting by going down next season :(
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Agree entirely with all you say Shaggy, except the sale of the stadium. Reason being, if it's sold "now", or in the near future, it will almost certainly go without the hoped-for high-value planning permission approval(ha!) attached.

So do we then end up in the same situation as Brighton when they sold the Goldstone for a pittance and it was redeveloped and then flogged for £20m a year or so later. If we do, I see no coming back - Brentford FC will very likely die a quick death.

We're between a rock and a hard place I know; I just don't want to go down without a fight. That isn't necessarily a fight with Noades (I could take 'im, I bigger than he is), but a fight for our very existence.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Also loads of other Football Clubs have major financial problems, just look at Lincoln City and QPR to name just two.

If you saw that program on the TV other night you would have seen its not just a Bee's problem.

[ 12 May 2002: Message edited by: feltham ]
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

It's painful stuff, but I think you're spot on Shaggy. I would rather see Brentford become a mediocre Div 3 team than go out of business.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

I quite agree with everything that has been written.However somewhere down the line somebody has to be accountable for the state that we now find ourselves in.No one asked R.N to buy B.F.C & employ Lewington,Bullivant&Griffin & pay them the sort of money that first division clubs are paying their coaching staff(allegedly).Go back even further,& ask yourself where did the money go from the sale of Holdsworth(sold for £750,000 & replaced with a bloke from Grimsby who cost £75,000),Gayle & Sinton to name but 3,& there are plenty of other players that have been sold over the years for a profit,but how much of that money has ever been ploughed back into the club to build for the future?
We are in the division that appears to suit the people that have been running OUR club for the past 45 years,ask yourselves this question,since the end of World War2,how many time,s have we been in a higher division than the one that we will start in next season??Come on you Bees.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by WARRENBEE:
We are in the division that appears to suit the people that have been running OUR club for the past 45 years
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I think your dead right there Warren - Lange for one could never afford the first division. However with the ar$e falling out of the tv money etc I think you will find now that a lot of clubs will re-organise. Let's hope Noades goes asap

Top post Shaggy
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

I agree with you about the whinging bit Shaggy and the basis of the argument you make is basically sound BUT in the world you speak of where is the optimism, where is the hope. No doubt many people will accuse me of living in a fantasy world but isn't supporting a football team all about hope, faith and a little fantasy? No club can survive without ambition and where is the ambition in our club, not living beyond our means but our ambition.

We are a small club no disputing that but small clubs can propsper given the right leadership and infrastructure, look at Gillingham (Who were certainly no larger than us five years ago in terms of fan base etc). Look at the former Conference clubs like Rushden & Cheltenham who are both on the up.

Are we so very different? I think we are in the respect of having a Chairman who is most certainly not a fan and perhaps even worse appears to have a negative influence rather than positive (ask Sir Steve and the players).

We have all suffered yet another great dissapointment in a major game but we must get over it. Yes Shaggy tough decisions will have to be made with regards to playing staff the ground etc, but let's make sure they are the right decisions for us as a club let's not talk ourselves into being a mid table 3rd division club whose only ambition is to survive from year to year with no stadium and Griffin Park just another souless housing estate. If that is the only way we can survive so be it, although I'm far from convinced it is!
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by shaggy:
. I can't see we've got a cats chance in hell of actually becoming so profitable that we can pay off the debt, so we have to sell GP and move somewhere pretty damn quick. That should not only give us access to new revenues (the hospitality etc) but also save us all the interest costs. We might even be able to keep a decent player or two as a result
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So where exactly is this new stadium that provides hospitality facilities then?

Kingstonian, Woking, Hayes. I dont think so. Leaving Griffin Park and moving into a non league craphole will not save us money. We would save 3-400k per season in interest costs, but lose far more than that in a) Roof sponsorship. b) London Broncos income. c) reduced gate income.

Please demonstrate to me in proper terms how selling Griffin Park with no proper replacement to go to will help us financially.

Fact is it wont. The only person it will help is a certain mr Noades who will be able to get his cash back from the Bank. If we sell GP in our current state, we end up as a team with no manager, very few players, a declinining fanbase and no ground. In short, we are F****D. Lets keep campaigning for a proper new stadium in the vicinity but no quick decisions please on selling the ground until that option is available. I am surprised at such myopia from an AbeeC candidate, and I hope you're views on the ground are not also also those of our newly elected councillor beacuse if so I will be sorry I helped with the campaign at all.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Hard reading your comments Shaggy but probably nearer reality than we would like.

From now on its going to be very different running a FL club. Lower wages and resources than people ever imagined, more emphasise on finding and developing talent than ever before. In many respects it will be like stepping back a decade or even two. "Ambition" will just become a dirty word for spending money you don't have and more fool any club that goes down that line.We all want success but at what cost Some even now may be passed the point of no return having to pay for their "Ambition".

Many modern day managers and owners are not going to be able to cope with this, its just going to be too hard for them........a new breed may emerge. Taylor saw this at Brighton, took a reality check on what his job was going to entail next year and walked away, just where he will find a club with "ambition" and a "workable budget" beats me.

Could be Coppell is in the same mould, although I think he may be more cautious about just walking away, it depends how much he is willing to work in this environment

The next 2/3 years will be about survival, if we are still there at the end of it we should be happy.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

well said isleworth bee.
i can't see how we're going to sell gp, service the debts, and build a cash cow multiple revenue stream stadium with what's left over. even it it was possible, pretty damn quick seems a bit hasty.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Good post Shaggy, but with all due respect, please don't tell me or others to stop whinging. It's incredibly condescending, and we are barely 24 hours after the heartache at Cardiff. The reaction to the defeat was bound to be just this, and we all need to let off steam, and this is the perfect forum to do so.
However, you comments are very true, but I would rather have read them tomorrow morning that now.
Oh well, let's get on with it, and plan for our future.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

I wonder how much BFC make from the roof advertising each season, and how much of a difference this is with the projected non-matchday-earnings in a new stadium? Because we certainly wouldn't have the largest static advertising space in Europe at another stadium!
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by KGBee:
I wonder how much BFC make from the roof advertising each season, and how much of a difference this is with the projected non-matchday-earnings in a new stadium? Because we certainly wouldn't have the largest static advertising space in Europe at another stadium!
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Not enough to keep the club going.

We have to accept facts that we will have a very young team next year and a number of star players have played their last games for us.

Shaggy, excellent post.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Agree with some elements of what you've said and also Leicester Bee, but let's get one thing straight......Coppell is NOT expensive.
He's on peanuts and actually earns less than some of the players.
I've heard it said - but I won't say by whom - that it's actually cost home money to manage Brentford this season.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by Brickie Chap:
Not enough to keep the club going.

We have to accept facts that we will have a very young team next year and a number of star players have played their last games for us.

Shaggy, excellent post.
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I just want to back up what Shaggy and Brickie Chap has said. Believe me, the club has now serious problems in the coming months. Promotion would have given us breathing space. We now don't have that luxury.

Don't hope the Evo, Lloyd and Ivar stay as you are wasting your energy. Expect them to leave. It's a depressing picture but peoples jobs are on the line now..

:(

[ 13 May 2002: Message edited by: Mark Chapman ]
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Sorry, that should have read "him money" - not thinking straight again yet.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

good post, but it makes for really depressing reading doesn't it. Still we've got to get our heads out of the clouds and face reality
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

The real danger is that Noades is happy to put the club into liquidation to get his money back. Why anybody at GP thinks that there is any sort of a future away from GP is beyond me. Our only hope is to downsize on a large scale and hope that other clubs are in the same boat financially. If we leave Griffin Park, and Noades would have us playing in Gunnersbury Park if he could, we are f*cked. There will not be enough money left from the sale of GP to build anything like a stadium with all these lovely conference and banqueting facilities that are going to save the club so we should stay put. I would support a team of juniors if necessary, rather than jump through hoops so that Ron can have a cheerful retirement in Malaga. He chose to put his money into the club, it didn't work out, tough sh*t. As a businessman he should appreciate that and accept that he made a mistake and that we should not suffer for his lack of judgement. :mad:
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

We need to wait and see on this one.
Hopefully with the demise of itv digital the clubs that have offered our top players contracts may have to tighten thir belts as well. there will be circa 700 players alledgedly out of contract and they will have to accept a drop in salary to stay in work. We need to find a few bargains to replace the higher earners and hope we are good enough to stay up next year. You nevert know what is round the corners but change is usually a good thing. We must embrace the change and look for the positive but whatever happens we must ensure BFC survives!
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by mhead bee:
There will be circa 700 players alledgedly out of contract and they will have to accept a drop in salary to stay in work. We need to find a few bargains to replace the higher earners and hope we are good enough to stay up next year.
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The big concern has to be that if Noades stays in charge there will be no contracts renewed and no new signings, something which I fear is a distinct possibility. :mad:
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by shaggy:
I think Coppell is an excellent manager, but he is also a)expensive and b)not prepared to try to succeed when the best players will regularly be sold and he'll be left with kids and reserves. So be it. We need a manager who is prepared to take those kids and make them fight for our survival. If Coppell has decided that's a fight he can do without then he goes with my blessing. He's done great things for us this season, and if he isn't prepared to last the struggle in the next season then the biggest favour he can do us is to leave now. Don't criticise him or the club, thank them both for being grown up enough to make some hard decisions.
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Shaggy,

I agree with almost everything you say except your comments about Coppell being expensive.

I don't know what he earns but I'd bet may last dollar that it is a lot less than what Ron paid himself when he attempted the job and Coppell has not needed the services of an army of coaches.

In my view Steve Coppell has litterally earned every penny of his salary just by taking an averager Brentford team and molding them into serious propmotion candidates.

I'm worried about my clubs future, but there are others worse of than us and just who has the money next season to offer all of these big deals.

'We' as supporters need to belive, we need to BEE POSITIVE, the one thing today that can make that happen is for Steve Coppell to be our manager.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Agree with most but not letting Steve Coppell go he is our greatest assett. Sure if he wants to go nothing can do but its worth the money to keep him. Here is a man who can spot real talent going cheap and turn average into class (just look at the difference in Llyod Owusu this year!) If we can find somebody willing to speculate to accumulate then sir Steve is the key. Without him our only assett is a prime site next to the M4 :(
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by Simon T:
The big concern has to be that if Noades stays in charge there will be no contracts renewed and no new signings, something which I fear is a distinct possibility. :mad:
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I think perhaps you should re-read the original post. The sad fact is that REGARDLESS of who's in charge, there will be no contracts renewed and most likely very few new signings, if any then they'll be very young or Non-league players. The priority from now on is the survival of the club. Sad to say, but success on the pitch will have to come second best for the time being.

I for one though, hope that Coppell can be persuaded to stay, it'd be a great challenge for him, but I'm sure he's got the ability to do it.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

But then again, If Brentford had have kept Mahon for an extra eight weeks then we wouldn't have had to feild as many players on Saturday that clearly were f*cked with injuries.
It's a fine line, but maybe risking losing the fee for Mahon etc. could have paid us big dividends if it would have helped us into Division One?
And lets not start slating Coppell for not wanting to manage a team that has it's best players sold.
He's proven himself more than just a manager that takes a sh*te job to get himself on the map - As we speak Steve Coppell deserves so much more than Brentford and I hope that he comes out smelling of roses - He deserves it and certainly deserves to be sent from GP with all of our best wishes!
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

This is important, so it gets a "bump"!!
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Our club, the fans included, seems to be in the chronic grip of what psychiatrists call "catastrophic expectation syndrome", or something like that. This is a condition in which the worst is always expected and that expectation often becomes self-fulfilling.

Consider this...from the most unpromising situation this season, Brentford came within a whisker of promotion. The fan base grew significantly and interest in the club reached the highest point for several years.
This would seem to be a propitious moment for a potential investor to get involved. We plainly don't need much more to become champions and the return on the money could be quite attractive.
This would be a time for Brentford management and fans to put the arm on some of the deep pocket industrial giants that call Brentford their home and presumably employ large numbers of Brentford fans. A few millions each from the Gillettes, Beckmans, Fullers and the rest would not break their budgets. In return they could get publicity, corporate suites etc, whatever and recognition as good, commited citzens fo Brentford and LBH. Is it not time for the organization which fought so well in the recent elections to start lobbying the executives of these companies and others to support this important but threatened local enterprise?

For any individual corporation it would not need to be on the scale of the Harrods' mogul's effort with Fulham. Something much more modest and spread over several companies would get the job done.

If we keep predicting doom and despondency, that's exactly what we will deserve and exactly what we will get.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

California Bee has a good point regarding corporate advertising, sponsorship, etc. The Great West Road has always been the home to many large, often multi national companies. I have often wondered why we see very little of these companies, be it advertising, sponsorship, or the like at GP. Often at away matches the volume of perimeter and similar advertising puts GP to shame.

I still consider that our marketing does not do enough to attract the volume and types of corporate associations that we should have been developing over a number of years. There are a great number of local companies that should be regarded as sources of revenue. Where are they? What is being done to attract them? Very little it seems!!!
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by Wise old Bee:
Why anybody at GP thinks that there is any sort of a future away from GP is beyond me. Our only hope is to downsize on a large scale and hope that other clubs are in the same boat financially.

If we leave Griffin Park, and Noades would have us playing in Gunnersbury Park if he could, we are f*cked. There will not be enough money left from the sale of GP to build anything like a stadium with all these lovely conference and banqueting facilities that are going to save the club so we should stay put. judgement.
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Those are two really important points; it seems strange and perverse but Brentford FC should hope that other clubs are in similar finanical situations, if only because it would address the main issue of massive wages paid to players. Obviously BFC can't afford to remain at GP while paying inflated salaries because it's a loss making venture. However, we can't afford NOT to pay inflated salaries if we're expecting to compete at this level and keep players. While there are other clubs who can and do afford to pay high wages then we will always lose our best players and be unable to attract good players to GP, the more clubs who can afford to do this the worse it is for us.
If clubs are not in a financial state to do this though, it may provide much-needed deflatory pressure on wages.

Ideally, wages would decrease to such an extent that remaining at GP would be feasible as gate money and other revenue would be enough, however I can't see this happening while clubs such as Wigan, Stoke, Reading, Huddersfield etal continue to spend, even if it is well beyond their means.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Originally posted by California Bee:
Our club, the fans included, seems to be in the chronic grip of what psychiatrists call "catastrophic expectation syndrome", or something like that. This is a condition in which the worst is always expected and that expectation often becomes self-fulfilling.

Consider this...from the most unpromising situation this season, Brentford came within a whisker of promotion. The fan base grew significantly and interest in the club reached the highest point for several years.
This would seem to be a propitious moment for a potential investor to get involved. We plainly don't need much more to become champions and the return on the money could be quite attractive.
This would be a time for Brentford management and fans to put the arm on some of the deep pocket industrial giants that call Brentford their home and presumably employ large numbers of Brentford fans. A few millions each from the Gillettes, Beckmans, Fullers and the rest would not break their budgets. In return they could get publicity, corporate suites etc, whatever and recognition as good, commited citzens fo Brentford and LBH. Is it not time for the organization which fought so well in the recent elections to start lobbying the executives of these companies and others to support this important but threatened local enterprise?

For any individual corporation it would not need to be on the scale of the Harrods' mogul's effort with Fulham. Something much more modest and spread over several companies would get the job done.

If we keep predicting doom and despondency, that's exactly what we will deserve and exactly what we will get.
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Well if it's that easy, why hasn't it been done already? Do the 3 paragraphs above contain all the answers tho our problems? By the Lord Harry, I think you've cracked it California Bee!!! Any chance you could pop over tomorrow and sort this all our as it's so easy?

Thanks, we're all eternally grateful for shining a light on the obvious when some of us thought we were in trouble.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

"Well if it's that easy, why hasn't it been done already?" says Mr. Russell with dripping sarcasm.

Until a few weeks ago, you could have argued the same way about running for office in LBH. It hasn't been done before probably because nobody has tried before, or at least not in recent times. Further, there was no suggestion that it was supposed to be easy.

For Pete's sake man, try to be a little more constructive.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

This line of contention reminds me of the only sane boss I ever had at work. She would always say

"Don't criticise unless you can come up with a better suggestion, I dont want to know whats wrong with my suggestions i want to know how to improve them. If you cant do that then please remain silent"

It has left a mark with me.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

It is ironic (at least to me) that this particular suggestion has come from a yank. The Corporate culture where Large Corporates run and profit from everything but are prepared to put very little back into the communities they dominate is a very American thing which is cbeing replicated in the UK.

It is true that we have many huge conglomerates on our doorstep including Gillette, GSK, Comdisco, UPS, GE Capital etc , etc but how many of them are able to (without upsetting their Institutional shareholders) put money back into the communities they depend on for their livelihoods and labour force. Probably none.

Look around the Premiership and elsewhere in sport and see how many major benefactors are large public Companies as opposed to smaller privately owned concerns. Not many.

Does that answer your question Idaho?

It would be great to think that GSK could put up a sum totally irrelevant to them to promote the club of the town in which they have their headquarters. Sadly it just wont happen, as their is no profit in it for them and that is the only thing that matters.

Community spirit counts for nothing in the 21st Century. Profit rules.

NB. I am NOT a communist.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

Most of us Brentford fans living overseas are British born and bred. In my case, I was born in Middlesex, lived there for thirty years and I have been coming to Griffin Park since 1946 and have spent more time in the old stadium that many of the correspondents on this board. Living in San Francisco does not make me a Yank any more than living in England makes an American a Limey.

Secondly, US corporations sometimes advertise by buying the rights to name a stadium e.g. 3Com Stadium. Few of them, if any, actually sponsor a team although Disney is an exception with the Anaheim Mighty Ducks. What does differentiate US sports is a healthy desire to reach all markets and to maintain a level of parity and competition. Every NFL stadium is filled for every NFL football match and every NFL football match is televised with all clubs sharing equally in the revenues.
There are people like Whelan and El Fayed who head corporations and who run football clubs in Britain but the most obvious example of corporate sponsored football teams would probably be Germany.
Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it couldn't start now. After all, forty years ago, the idea of coporations adverising themselves on football jerseys would have been unthinkable.
This may or may not be the right idea but it seems apparent that some new approach to the challenge facing our club and others is going to be needed if Armageddon is to be avoided and prosperity restored.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

The problem is that these corporations don't really need to advertise... What they are generally looking for in return is the opportunity for corporate hospitality.
This is where we fall down, since we can offer virtually nothing.

I am pretty sure that if we had a new stadium with executive boxes and we were willing to offer these as part of the deal that got us sponsorship, there would be far greater interest in giving us money. Execs who want to sit squashed up in uncomfortable seats without proper refreshments are few and far between, no matter how good the football is.
Also, it hardly impresses your clients if you take them along and they have the same situation.

We NEED a new stadium, but if we stay nearby, big sponsors are there to be got!
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

I am sure the club has approached these companies, when i lived in the UK I worked for the L B Hounslow in the Heritage and Tourism Dept, we constantly approached the firms along the Great West Road and got very little from them. The best company we dealt with was Heidleberg the printing group who are along the the High st. It would be great if GSK would sponser us like Bayer do in Germany, but I cant see them doing it.
 

Prepare for some hard decisions, and stop whinging!

There are plenty of companies that currently sposor our players training & match kit etc.
Some are smaller companies, some even individuals. Now if companies are prepared to do this for little advertising, maybe some would sponsor a players wage, all or part thereof if necessary.
It may well be that all these avenues have been tried before and failed, but things change in life like company MD's etc. So my view is if you don't ask you don't get. There would be vast amounts of rejections but even if one company paid one players wages for the season BFC are in pocket rather than out.
 
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