Final Score Bees 3 - 2 Bristol City (Canos, Toney, Ghoddos)

stomalomalus

Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
156
Reaction score
62
I ended the game pretty nervous after their second goal when we should have been cruising. I agree that all the substitutions in final minutes caused sloppiness and confusion. TBH giving Rico fives minutes rest at the end seems pointless and gains very little. The end formation reminded me of the Barnsley game at end of last season when Thomas threw on so many subs it looked like no one knew where they were supposed to be playing. Anyway, minor quibble after another top performance

I actually read a little about this after Klopp mentioned it. It's basically about muscle injury prevention. The idea is that those 5 minutes at the end of a game are the most dangerous for players who could be close to muscle fatigue. So if you have a chance to remove them from the game, you are drastically reducing their chance of injury, not just by a "marginal gains" perspective, but by a relatively large %age.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand it, but there must be some sports science behind this considering the teams that rely most on analytics and science to do their work (see also England rugby) make these subs regularly.
 

bees1984

Member
Joined
22 Jun 2015
Messages
876
Reaction score
214
Sometimes subs at the end seem baffling but I remember another manager saying they couldn't sub off a player so he played the last 5 mins and then picked up an injury. We got the three points and we're still comfortable at the end. Hopefully that 5 mins is the difference between a hamstring injury or not. We will never know if it would have happened but it didn't because they were subbed. I think the game allowed it as well
 

liverbee

Active member
Joined
17 May 2006
Messages
5,380
Reaction score
475
Location
Liverpool at present
Ghoddos for one looked totally shattered, even though he was playing well. Giving Rico a rest for a few minutes is bound to make us nervous, but he was needing it. Judge on Saturday.
 

OrchardBee

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2020
Messages
126
Reaction score
136
Location
East Midlands
For all that we came close last year we never actually got into the top two at any point that I remember? Feels good. Now to stay there.
That’s right. Last season, from game 22 onwards we entered the top six and were always then (at close of the day) either third, fourth or fifth until the end of the regular season.
Meanwhile, after 26 games this season, we are now one place higher and 8 points better off than at the same point last season.
 

Mr Cynical

Well-known member
Joined
1 Jul 2000
Messages
14,409
Reaction score
3,657
Location
London
Ghoddos for one looked totally shattered, even though he was playing well. Giving Rico a rest for a few minutes is bound to make us nervous, but he was needing it. Judge on Saturday.

I don't think subbing Rico was an issue. We weren't really under any extra pressure after he went off. It's just a sloppy ball from Ethan, as jlove says he was probably a little thrown by being on the left again and just got his angles wrong.
 

Leicester Bee

Active member
Joined
11 Apr 2000
Messages
4,573
Reaction score
370
Location
Kew
I think the issue is that we "tend" to play the same way throughout 90 minutes, when towards the end of the game, a flaming huge hoof to clear their lines will do for me. I appreciate that can invite pressure back onto us though, and possession can alleviate it, but I still like to see the ball launched into orbit on occasions.
 

wanderer paul

https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Joined
28 Oct 2002
Messages
51,397
Reaction score
2,868
Location
Brentford
Enjoyable game to watch, What a goal from Ivan as well.

On a different subject, Can anyone explain why was Mick McCarthy the Cardiff manager at the game? I thought in this lockdown it was Essential journeys only, Non of our supporters can get in, so why was he allowed to, And could our club get into trouble for allowing it????

You’re allowed to scout the opposition. Several scouts can be seen and accommodated at games.
 

SlumanBee

Fantasy Football Pro
Joined
17 Jan 2010
Messages
1,985
Reaction score
64
Location
High Wycombe, Bucks
JDS back in for Jensen next game, who was walked past far too many times last night. I'm not a fan. Though Dals struggled a bit too.

IMO - Fosu and Canos are performing more regularly than Mbeumo does and are much more in the game for 90 minutes than he ever is. No need to change that either.

Bonus was all the goals we scored were great.
Negative was, both goals were so sloppy. First one Dals doesn't get the ball, it looks clumsy. Second one, I feel Wells is offside but Pinnock was so risky with his pass it was madness.
At 2-1 we gave away the ball three times in sixty seconds to little silly flicks, I get that we are that type of side but would we do that in the prem against sides that could roast us for it? I'd like to think not.

Ghoddos, good goal from him and a couple of good shots but just isn't in the game enough for me. I'm still not convinced and he is poor like Jensen is defensively.

No blame for TF for bringing on the subs and making the changes, we can't run a first XI into the ground. Glad to see Reid get 5-10 minutes too. Wonder whether Mads will be sacrificed for certain types of opposition? Mads was really good on the ball last night too bringing it out at the back, which was needed.

In reality of the second half, whilst the first was even, this game should never have been this close. Lessons to be learnt!
 

TorbayBee

Formerly BanburyBee
Joined
18 Feb 2019
Messages
961
Reaction score
715
Ive been thinking the same , Im not looking forward to playing Dino's team who excel on anti football , being physical and balls into the box
I think we might see Reid from the start on Saturday.
 

Leicester Bee

Active member
Joined
11 Apr 2000
Messages
4,573
Reaction score
370
Location
Kew
JDS back in for Jensen next game, who was walked past far too many times last night. I'm not a fan.

We know what we get with Jensen. He's no hard tackling man, but his passing is often pivotal to our attacks. I don't think it's fair to say that he was walked past too many times either, as he positioned himself well. If he really was the kind of player to offer nothing defensively, our midfield would get regularly walked through, but it doesn't.
Having said that, if his passing is off, I agree that he is about as effective as Marcondes, but more often than not, he displays the vision and execution that leads to us getting on the front foot.
 

wanderer paul

https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Joined
28 Oct 2002
Messages
51,397
Reaction score
2,868
Location
Brentford
I actually read a little about this after Klopp mentioned it. It's basically about muscle injury prevention. The idea is that those 5 minutes at the end of a game are the most dangerous for players who could be close to muscle fatigue. So if you have a chance to remove them from the game, you are drastically reducing their chance of injury, not just by a "marginal gains" perspective, but by a relatively large %age.

I'll be honest, I don't fully understand it, but there must be some sports science behind this considering the teams that rely most on analytics and science to do their work (see also England rugby) make these subs regularly.

It was posted on here, somewhere, re the subs and reasons why.

All the players are tracked. Analytics can tell when a player is becoming fatigued and then this causes muscle injuries late in games.

Better to be safe than to lose Rico Henry for 4-6 weeks with a pulled hamstring or such like.

Subs are made for a reason. Just accept it’s for the players benefit. Even if it seems to have an affect on the game.
 

SlumanBee

Fantasy Football Pro
Joined
17 Jan 2010
Messages
1,985
Reaction score
64
Location
High Wycombe, Bucks
We know what we get with Jensen. He's no hard tackling man, but his passing is often pivotal to our attacks. I don't think it's fair to say that he was walked past too many times either, as he positioned himself well. If he really was the kind of player to offer nothing defensively, our midfield would get regularly walked through, but it doesn't.
Having said that, if his passing is off, I agree that he is about as effective as Marcondes, but more often than not, he displays the vision and execution that leads to us getting on the front foot.

I felt it did get walked through a few times in the first half, particularly with the young BC player running rings round us it seemed.

I'd love to see some figures on his passing range, accuracy and output because I don't see it all. Jensen was the same against Wycombe - you can side step him so easily because he can't tackle or get his body in the way. He's not bad at doing that on the ball himself but when someone else has it, he gives up. I want more desire.

He would be having the same kind of season Sawyers is having in the prem - in a struggling side, he would be way off what it takes to even compete let alone deliver.
 

Wouldbee

Active member
Joined
10 Apr 2007
Messages
2,891
Reaction score
201
Location
West Ealing
Yeah for me some of the regular older first team members need to show the desire and application of the younger/ young fringe lads . Sorensens long range passing last night was excellent . Pinnock gamble pass at the death that lead to the Bristol second was mad and the sort of mistake you’d expect from a young’un. Oh and Fosu? I literally forgot Mbeumo wasn’t playing or in the squad. And people moan we don’t have squad depth. Pfffft. Jannson, Da silva , Norgaard, Baptiste, Mbeumo, Goode....... all missing and it didn’t show .
 

Nickabee

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
573
Reaction score
147
My main concern after watching this and the last few matches is the opposition seem to think we are a flair team and struggle to handle a physical approach
 

Shamrock_Bee

Member
Joined
18 Aug 2020
Messages
468
Reaction score
368
I don't think any substitution decision has been baffling at all but the effect has caused concern at times. The main factor is not having Jansson on the pitch to provide the organisation under pressure. I hope Reid will be able to bring that – and quickly. Hopefully, we'll see Dasilva and Mbeumo available for selection on Saturday, even Marcondes, maybe Reid for Pinnock or Sørensen but it may be a bit too early.

I don't want to come across as criticising and his squad rotation as most things has been spot on. However I think it's hard not to agree late substitutes cost us 2 points against Blackburn and made the last 5 minutes very uncomfortable last night when they didn't really need to be. Changing a back line so late in the game is always very risky as most players will tell you it takes 5 - 10 minutes to get into a game; therefore making whole sale player and postional changes in the 85th minute is bizarre in my opinion and it caused a little bit of chaos last night.

Apart from the first goal we were comfortable at the back until towards the end of the game; I just don't think the game despite the two goal advantage was over to make so many late changes. Yes players coming back will help but to be honest unless there was an injury or an extra defender coming on for tactical reasons I'd prefer no changes at the back in the 85th minute even if it was Pontus coming on; it's just not the time to make major changes in that area.

I understand why Janelt was rested on Saturday, it's difficult to get the balance of resting players in the current climate correct; from the first half it probably wasn't the right decision but I think we reacted well and acknowledged that in the second half.
 

IslandBee

Now Off-Island Bee
Joined
29 Sep 2009
Messages
6,941
Reaction score
632
Location
New Milton, Hants
We know what we get with Jensen. He's no hard tackling man, but his passing is often pivotal to our attacks. I don't think it's fair to say that he was walked past too many times either, as he positioned himself well. If he really was the kind of player to offer nothing defensively, our midfield would get regularly walked through, but it doesn't.
Having said that, if his passing is off, I agree that he is about as effective as Marcondes, but more often than not, he displays the vision and execution that leads to us getting on the front foot.

I have been a bit critical of Jensen in the past but I thought he played pretty well last night and has done for the majority of the last few games he has played. He worked incredibly hard, did not shirk the defensive work and, most importantly, fulfilled his main role ie to keep us fluid and progressive going forward.
 

WARFIELD BEE

Active member
Joined
14 Aug 2011
Messages
4,634
Reaction score
616
Thomas has got to stop messing about with the back 4 in the last knockings of the game and could have cost us points again just like Blackburn back in December, bring on Reid and put Sorensen to left full back ok but there was no call to bring in Roslev it just causes confusion and albeit an offside goal it was still missed by the lino and given also put Bristol City on a high in thinking they could get a point out of the game and us under pressure for the final 7-8 minutes.
 
Last edited:

Mr Cynical

Well-known member
Joined
1 Jul 2000
Messages
14,409
Reaction score
3,657
Location
London
I felt it did get walked through a few times in the first half, particularly with the young BC player running rings round us it seemed.

I'd love to see some figures on his passing range, accuracy and output because I don't see it all. Jensen was the same against Wycombe - you can side step him so easily because he can't tackle or get his body in the way. He's not bad at doing that on the ball himself but when someone else has it, he gives up. I want more desire.

He would be having the same kind of season Sawyers is having in the prem - in a struggling side, he would be way off what it takes to even compete let alone deliver.

jensen last night. 80% pass accuracy. 2 key passes, 4 accurate crosses out of 5, 4 accurate long balls out of 6.. 4 successful tackles (more than janelt), 2 interceptions..

from who scored
 

AB

Well-known member
Joined
12 Apr 2000
Messages
12,283
Reaction score
2,227
Location
'Sunny' Leeds
It's hard to criticise Thomas but at times some of his decisions are baffling. Subs galore against Blackburn cost us, having an open midfield against the most physical team on Saturday wasn't wise and then making subs last night as if we were 5 or 6 up. Thankfully he solved the problem early in the 2nd half against Wycombe and got away with it last night but sometimes decisions are bizarre. We're second so doing everything pretty much right but as Blackburn showed this league can bite you when you effectively give the signal the game is won.
I think at 2-1 the game is in the balance as v Blackburn. If we can’t consider 3-1 to be a late lead we’d defend at least 9 times out of 10, that would show a serious lack of confidence and prevent us from managing player fitness and fatigue.
 
Joined
4 Oct 2008
Messages
692
Reaction score
497
Location
Woolpit, Suffark
On the other hand, squad freshness is likely to be a key component of success in this intense season. A coach's ability to rest and rotate important players and use the full depth of the squad is likely to pay dividends later on. There is inevitably risk involved in this.

For us it is brilliant that we are still winning games and moving up the table with key players out injured. At various stages, JDS, Norgaard, Mbeumo, Jansen, Marcondes etc. are going to come back in fully refreshed, which can only add impetus to an already succeeding team.
Agree Lionel, we're playing Saturday-Wednesday all through February so have to give players a rest.
TF and team are doing a fabulous job but I do think there should be as much like-for-like subs as possible.
That way the player going on is more focused on his job and there's less disruption to the tactics/formation for the players left on the pitch.
It was 3-1 up yesterday when Bristol made 3 subs and at that point I think I would have subbed Ivan for Forss, Rico for Reid (OK, a bit of a shuffle there) and Ghoddos for Zamburek.
It took BC time to re-set and we could have been doing the same.
Later see how things are shaping up and possibly give Henrik or Tariq a rest.

Like you say Lionel, brilliant that we are still winning games with key players out, but the upside is that one-time fringe players are blossoming and turning into stars.
What a time to be a Bee if the only thing we can pick holes in is the subs :)
And crosses :mad:
And taking risks at the back ;)
And giving cheap free-kicks away :cry:
And not taking it to the corner flag in the 92nd minute :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

WARFIELD BEE

Active member
Joined
14 Aug 2011
Messages
4,634
Reaction score
616
As I said before RH goes off we concede, all for saving him for 5 Mins.
 

WARFIELD BEE

Active member
Joined
14 Aug 2011
Messages
4,634
Reaction score
616
Agree Lionel, we're playing Saturday-Wednesday all through February so have to give players a rest.
TF and team are doing a fabulous job but I do think there should be as much like-for-like subs as possible.
That way the player going on is more focused on his job and there's less disruption to the tactics/formation for the players left on the pitch.
It was 3-1 up yesterday when Bristol made 3 subs and at that point I think I would have subbed Ivan for Forss, Rico for Reid (OK, a bit of a shuffle there) and Ghoddos for Zamburek.
It took BC time to re-set and we could have been doing the same.
Later see how things are shaping up and possibly give Henrik or Tariq a rest.

Like you say Lionel, brilliant that we are still winning games with key players out, but the upside is that one-time fringe players are blossoming and turning into stars.
What a time to be a Bee if the only thing we can pick holes in is the subs :)
And crosses :mad:
And taking risks at the back ;)
And giving cheap free-kicks away :cry:
And not taking it to the corner fag in the 92nd minute :rolleyes:
Only if they are gagging for one
 

wanderer paul

https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Joined
28 Oct 2002
Messages
51,397
Reaction score
2,868
Location
Brentford
As I said before RH goes off we concede, all for saving him for 5 Mins.

Well, in those 5 minutes he could’ve pulled a muscle etc etc. As mentioned above, subs are made with certain analytical stats behind them. Just trust the system. Otherwise, if they didn’t sub him, we could be without an important left back for several weeks due to a muscle injury that could’ve been prevented.
 

Frothybaby

Active member
Joined
3 Sep 2013
Messages
1,961
Reaction score
179
Thought City were up for it to start, and got a good goal from a dodgy free kick. Thought Hunt was an astute player and caused us problems. I thought the kid Massengo (?) stood out for them and would like us to get him for the B team/understudy 1st team. We stuck to our plan and stretched them. Width and depth forced them to gradually drop deeper during the first half until 20 minutes in, where we rarely had to defend too much.

Fosu and Canos were impossible for them to track and were on their way to MOM displays. Ghoddos and Jensen started to find space (sometimes within a pack of City players!). Janelt got the space to read the game and then the midfield flowed. Toney was everywhere, turning up behind Janelt or on left wing. Then we showed our class, and it scared them.

A worry towards the end, and I get why some on here question the subs, but surely we need to get them time. We know that injury is more likely when knackered. I am positive that Thomas has a very good reason (probably more than one) why he takes the risk. We may drop points along the way but this is long plan, not the short one. Every player and member of staff will have learnt from every game this season, even things they didn't realise was happening.

I am really enjoying what I am seeing.
 

A Real Mysteron

Active member
Joined
13 Apr 2009
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,746
Thought City were up for it to start, and got a good goal from a dodgy free kick. Thought Hunt was an astute player and caused us problems. I thought the kid Massengo (?) stood out for them and would like us to get him for the B team/understudy 1st team. We stuck to our plan and stretched them. Width and depth forced them to gradually drop deeper during the first half until 20 minutes in, where we rarely had to defend too much.

Fosu and Canos were impossible for them to track and were on their way to MOM displays. Ghoddos and Jensen started to find space (sometimes within a pack of City players!). Janelt got the space to read the game and then the midfield flowed. Toney was everywhere, turning up behind Janelt or on left wing. Then we showed our class, and it scared them.

A worry towards the end, and I get why some on here question the subs, but surely we need to get them time. We know that injury is more likely when knackered. I am positive that Thomas has a very good reason (probably more than one) why he takes the risk. We may drop points along the way but this is long plan, not the short one. Every player and member of staff will have learnt from every game this season, even things they didn't realise was happening.

I am really enjoying what I am seeing.

They paid £7.2 million for Massengo.
I think he would be an unlikely B teamer.
 

Beeian

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2011
Messages
686
Reaction score
82
Edwards the left winger looked very useful and at times dangerous last night and as a youngster maybe we should be looking to recruit players like him, not slagging Canos off as I thought he's been on it for the last few games
 

SlumanBee

Fantasy Football Pro
Joined
17 Jan 2010
Messages
1,985
Reaction score
64
Location
High Wycombe, Bucks
jensen last night. 80% pass accuracy. 2 key passes, 4 accurate crosses out of 5, 4 accurate long balls out of 6.. 4 successful tackles (more than janelt), 2 interceptions..

from who scored

That is genuinely surprising - he plays for a very decent champ side so expect that kind of forward output. Defensive stats from last night seem decent with 4 tackles and 2 interceptions, but still feel we can definitely do better than him.
 

Les Beeavinu

Administrator
Joined
5 Aug 2002
Messages
57,365
Reaction score
3,207
Location
Sandhurst
Edwards the left winger looked very useful and at times dangerous last night and as a youngster maybe we should be looking to recruit players like him, not slagging Canos off as I thought he's been on it for the last few games

He ran quite fast but I don't recall a single chance created by him.
 

Oceanbee

Active member
Joined
7 Sep 2013
Messages
2,387
Reaction score
1,044
Ghoddos for one looked totally shattered, even though he was playing well. Giving Rico a rest for a few minutes is bound to make us nervous, but he was needing it. Judge on Saturday.

I think Ghoddos did a lot last night, and did it well, both attacking and defending, and he ran and ran. Deserved his goal, and hopefully he’ll develop this even more, because when he hits the ball, he can really smash it.
He seems to be playing more centrally, and I think this suits him.

No wonder he looked a bit shattered coming off!

Another valuable player developing for us.
 

Gazza Bee

Active member
Joined
27 Jan 2001
Messages
8,284
Reaction score
776
Location
City: Sunbury State: Surrey
Wow indeed. It puts the £0.5m for Janelt into context. Would we have broken our transfer record for this bloke? I very much doubt it.
If I recall correctly there were rumours that he was being bought and then Chelsea would buy him once he had gained sufficient experience. However given he is still there maybe they have been had and spent far too much on a bang average kid.
 

Ealing Bee

Well-known member
Joined
5 Jun 2002
Messages
11,103
Reaction score
1,618
Location
Now Chiswick (proud to be a YIMBY)
Sometimes subs at the end seem baffling but I remember another manager saying they couldn't sub off a player so he played the last 5 mins and then picked up an injury. We got the three points and we're still comfortable at the end. Hopefully that 5 mins is the difference between a hamstring injury or not. We will never know if it would have happened but it didn't because they were subbed. I think the game allowed it as well
Maybe the real question is not "Why did he bother subbing him off with just 5 mins left?", but if there was a fatigue/injury risk issue, "Why didn't he sub him off earlier?"
Anyhow, I read somewhere that they can now monitor a player's fatigue - and therefore risk of injury - by how heavy his footsteps have become. That is, it might not be visible from the touchline, but if a player is suddenly hitting the ground harder while he runs, you should get him off, if possible.
(Not sure if that's available in matches, or just the gym/training pitch)

EDIT: Just seen post #411
 

A Real Mysteron

Active member
Joined
13 Apr 2009
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,746
Maybe the real question is not "Why did he bother subbing him off with just 5 mins left?", but if there was a fatigue/injury risk issue, "Why didn't he sub him off earlier?"
Anyhow, I read somewhere that they can now monitor a player's fatigue - and therefore risk of injury - by how heavy his footsteps have become. That is, it might not be visible from the touchline, but if a player is suddenly hitting the ground harder while he runs, you should get him off, if possible.
(Not sure if that's available in matches, or just the gym/training pitch)

Must be measured by the “smart bra”.
 
Joined
4 Oct 2008
Messages
692
Reaction score
497
Location
Woolpit, Suffark
Maybe the real question is not "Why did he bother subbing him off with just 5 mins left?", but if there was a fatigue/injury risk issue, "Why didn't he sub him off earlier?"
Anyhow, I read somewhere that they can now monitor a player's fatigue - and therefore risk of injury - by how heavy his footsteps have become. That is, it might not be visible from the touchline, but if a player is suddenly hitting the ground harder while he runs, you should get him off, if possible.
(Not sure if that's available in matches, or just the gym/training pitch)
I think those brazziers the players wear might be ‘live’.
Solve the issue by giving Rico a longer rest by taking him often as soon as we went 3-1 up.
Gives the new defence chance to gel. Going to need it sooner or later.
 

nick logan

Well-known member
Joined
6 Apr 2000
Messages
32,209
Reaction score
2,492
Location
Essex
Agree Nick and neither was Swansea’s equaliser last week but refs make mistakes so we have to stop giving them the opportunity to give them. Henrik was a bit too tight. Fine margins.

I agree , a small chink that hopefully will go away , we have been fine on crosses generally
 

Ealing Bee

Well-known member
Joined
5 Jun 2002
Messages
11,103
Reaction score
1,618
Location
Now Chiswick (proud to be a YIMBY)
I understand why Janelt was rested on Saturday, it's difficult to get the balance of resting players in the current climate correct;
Good point about the current climate (Covid congestion).

And although he'll be 23 in May, VJ had only played 53 league games in his career before joining Bees, and then only in Bundeslia 2 for Bochum. And some of those will likely have been substitute appearances.

Therefore he may not yet have the stamina that usually only comes with a long run of playing week in, week out. And tbf to Bees, they probably didn't expect to have to play him so often so soon, except that Norgaard got injured.
 

nick logan

Well-known member
Joined
6 Apr 2000
Messages
32,209
Reaction score
2,492
Location
Essex
That is genuinely surprising - he plays for a very decent champ side so expect that kind of forward output. Defensive stats from last night seem decent with 4 tackles and 2 interceptions, but still feel we can definitely do better than him.
I don't , i think he is class .
 

Ealing Bee

Well-known member
Joined
5 Jun 2002
Messages
11,103
Reaction score
1,618
Location
Now Chiswick (proud to be a YIMBY)
My main concern after watching this and the last few matches is the opposition seem to think we are a flair team and struggle to handle a physical approach
Reminds me of the manager who was asked after a defeat: "Why didn't you play them at their own game?", to which he replied: "It wouldn't be their game if they weren't bloody good at it!"

In the end, most teams know they can't "out-football" us, so they'll try to "out-scrap" us - we could even take it as a compliment.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom