Covid and the future of games

The Pipe

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It always makes me cross when the cost of the injections is raised by Football clubs as an issue. Not because they may not be able to afford it as some most obviously can’t but because the PFA who represent all footballers in this country are actually awash with money which, in the main, seems to be spent on the Executives!!!

I don’t doubt that the Elite clubs can afford the costs, however in the Championship and below there is minimal income but considerable expenditure. Just think of the basic costs involved with opening the grounds to no spectators, lighting heating wages etc without the stupendous cost of players salaries. I have no doubt that even a financially stable club such as ourselves are studying the cash flow fairly closely. As for the basket cases????

presuming matters deteriorate then it is quite likely football, apart from the Elite, is likely to come to a juddering halt with the likely result that some clubs will fall by the wayside. If the PFA were to finance the testing at all professional clubs, even at a significant cost, it is likely they would both save the game and possibly even save money down the line when clubs go bust and they have to cover various wages.

I am not holding my breath but if I hear their spokesman wittering on about how important football clubs are to the community then I will know, beyond any doubt, that in fact it is only the Premier League that exists in today’s world
 
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So you misread what I wrote......the cost of the vaccine has been reported to be £6 (two shots).........IF the vaccine was made available at that cost, how is it you say "it is like letting the rich jump the queue"?
£6....lets say £10 with admin costs.....less than a pack of fags or a couple of pints in some areas, less than a lot of people spent per person over Xmas.......I accept your comment regarding private companies charging more (as I said approx £200) and there will be those that do not wish to have the vaccine,therefore if the cost is £10,I still do not see your disagreement?
Not that I agree with people paying to jump the queue, my wife and I are ok finance wish and I would be willing to pay for the cost of the vaccine if that money went to the NHS
 

cheshirebee

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So you misread what I wrote......the cost of the vaccine has been reported to be £6 (two shots).........IF the vaccine was made available at that cost, how is it you say "it is like letting the rich jump the queue"?
£6....lets say £10 with admin costs.....less than a pack of fags or a couple of pints in some areas, less than a lot of people spent per person over Xmas.......I accept your comment regarding private companies charging more (as I said approx £200) and there will be those that do not wish to have the vaccine,therefore if the cost is £10,I still do not see your disagreement?
If vaccination became an ‘open market’ then the law of supply and demand would quickly kick in. The production cost would have no bearing on market pricing. There are thousands (if not millions) of people in the UK alone who would happily pay hundreds of pounds and more for a jab that would have such a huge benefit to their health prospects and unlock their way of life. In doing so, supply to the less wealthy and needy would be seriously delayed.
Quite rightly it’s not going to happen for football or any other sector.
 

wibs

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Confirmed PL clubs now testing twice a week regardless of the tier they are in
 

WarrenBee

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I only said to Mrs WB a couple of days ago that I'm not convinced that this season will be completed! I really hope that I'm wrong though.
 

Ealing Bee

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Mansfield's game with Salford has been called off due to an unplayable pitch (snow lying). Unremarkable in itself, except that:
"Mansfield said that because of the coronavirus pandemic, they were unable to ask volunteers to help remove an inch of snow from the surface."
Mansfield-Salford off because of snow

If the players (and matchday staff) were cleared to play on it later, could they not also have cleared the snow themselves beforehand? I mean, 20-odd people shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with an inch of snow? No?
 

beesbees_bfc

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I only said to Mrs WB a couple of days ago that I'm not convinced that this season will be completed! I really hope that I'm wrong though.
I’d be surprised if the season isn’t finished but would also be surprised if there’s not an enforced ‘break’ in the near future.

There isn’t quite as many midweek matches in January or February so if they had to stop for 8 weeks (longer than I think would be the case) the season could be finished if they resume with a two matches a week schedule as they have for the last 5-6 weeks.

Ideally extend the season by a week or so and get rid of the international break in March aswell which reduces fixture congestion but I’m sure this won’t happen.
 
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With the latest figures for London in the last 24hrs 12341 new positive cases 2960 hospitalised . I doubt very much if we are likely to be allowed back into Lionel Rd before Easter in any numbers

The government is putting a hell of a lot of a positive spin on the vaccines and Spring and Easter when we should start to see a return to normal live . I bloody hope so

To me what will be interesting, how do we prove we have had the vaccine (75 oap here)
 

Ealing Bee

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It was probably more than an inch. Maybe they meant an inch thick.
Yeah, whatever...

Anyhow, according to Sky Sports, Harrowgate's match tonight was in danger of being called off due to snow, but they made an appeal for volunteers on Twitter, who came in and cleared it.

Might it be that Mansfield is in a higher tier, meaning volunteers were not allowed to travel to the ground? I see that Harrowgate have fans at the match.
 

jlove

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With the latest figures for London in the last 24hrs 12341 new positive cases 2960 hospitalised . I doubt very much if we are likely to be allowed back into Lionel Rd before Easter in any numbers

The government is putting a hell of a lot of a positive spin on the vaccines and Spring and Easter when we should start to see a return to normal live . I bloody hope so

To me what will be interesting, how do we prove we have had the vaccine (75 oap here)
See post #47.
 

Untouchable

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To me what will be interesting, how do we prove we have had the vaccine (75 oap here)
The PHE vaccination card has space for a name to be written on it. Would be easy to check against name on a ticket for purposes of entry to LR for example.
 

Untouchable

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Commentary on Man Utd v Wolves on Amazon seemed to suggest there might be an enforced 2 week break on all football due to rising COVID cases.

This is apparently from the PL.
 

Ealing Bee

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Yeah, whatever...

Anyhow, according to Sky Sports, Harrowgate's match tonight was in danger of being called off due to snow, but they made an appeal for volunteers on Twitter, who came in and cleared it.

Might it be that Mansfield is in a higher tier, meaning volunteers were not allowed to travel to the ground? I see that Harrowgate have fans at the match.
Bloody Hell! Ref has now abandoned the match after 15 mins - unsafe pitch? - despite it having been passed fit at 5 pm.

Harrowgate players protesting - they were already 1-0 up - and fans booing.
 

Indian Bee

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Commentary on Man Utd v Wolves on Amazon seemed to suggest there might be an enforced 2 week break on all football due to rising COVID cases.

This is apparently from the PL.
Not surprised. Just looking at the Covid numbers today and the last few days I’ll be very surprised if another lockdown is not imminent. Only surprise for me is why we currently are not.

Big rumours also that Fulham’s game with Spurs tomorrow may be off due to increased cases in the Fulham camp.
 

Isleworth_Bee

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Not surprised. Just looking at the Covid numbers today and the last few days I’ll be very surprised if another lockdown is not imminent. Only surprise for me is why we currently are not.

Big rumours also that Fulham’s game with Spurs tomorrow may be off due to increased cases in the Fulham camp.
Got to give people a chance to get home from their Christmas get togethers. ;)
 

wibs

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Im not sure of the best wayntomprogress but its playing havoc with my fantasy league picks, I know that.
 

thanetbee

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If vaccination became an ‘open market’ then the law of supply and demand would quickly kick in. The production cost would have no bearing on market pricing. There are thousands (if not millions) of people in the UK alone who would happily pay hundreds of pounds and more for a jab that would have such a huge benefit to their health prospects and unlock their way of life. In doing so, supply to the less wealthy and needy would be seriously delayed.
Quite rightly it’s not going to happen for football or any other sector.
re this issue..there are two factors.
firstly...the NHS has a monopoly as it stands on access to vaccines. The NHS will use normal medical ethics rule which emphasise social justice as a key issue..meaning it will be supplied based on need, not wealth. Hardly any male under 30 will be a priority.

Secondly...pretty soon however other organisations will have access to vaccine and supply on a market basis. There may be a case for making this illegal but that would be a political decision.

whether you view the second option as a viable route for footy I guess depends on your view of the importance of social-justice.
 

JCMcBee

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re this issue..there are two factors.
firstly...the NHS has a monopoly as it stands on access to vaccines. The NHS will use normal medical ethics rule which emphasise social justice as a key issue..meaning it will be supplied based on need, not wealth. Hardly any male under 30 will be a priority.

Secondly...pretty soon however other organisations will have access to vaccine and supply on a market basis. There may be a case for making this illegal but that would be a political decision.

whether you view the second option as a viable route for footy I guess depends on your view of the importance of social-justice.
...'the NHS has a monopoly'....wrong.
 

Alex

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re this issue..there are two factors.
firstly...the NHS has a monopoly as it stands on access to vaccines. The NHS will use normal medical ethics rule which emphasise social justice as a key issue..meaning it will be supplied based on need, not wealth. Hardly any male under 30 will be a priority.

Secondly...pretty soon however other organisations will have access to vaccine and supply on a market basis. There may be a case for making this illegal but that would be a political decision.

whether you view the second option as a viable route for footy I guess depends on your view of the importance of social-justice.
i guess it also depends on the production rates of the vaccine, if it can be produced faster than the NHS can administer it where is the harm as no one waiting for the NHS is missing out? They may even get it faster as some of those ahead of them in the queue may no longer need it.
 

thanetbee

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...'the NHS has a monopoly'....wrong.
Cant recall stating anything re monopolies...however monopoly is not really the issue here....the simple economics are that only a government funded approach could have got the vaccines that are now available, available. that is true across the world (I think!). Going forward more vaccines will be supplied and other avenues are open. Medical ethics is also not unique to the NHS and most countries (even the USA) will be initially prioritising based on ethics and social justice.
 

thanetbee

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i guess it also depends on the production rates of the vaccine, if it can be produced faster than the NHS can administer it where is the harm as no one waiting for the NHS is missing out? They may even get it faster as some of those ahead of them in the queue may no longer need it.
depends on your view of ethics...and it is always a balancing act...however I personally don’t think the NHS will have any difficulties rolling it out and I would rather rely on medical need at this stage rather than wealth.
 

Gee Bee

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League 1 & 2 could possibly close down for a few weeks with league extended as they will have very few players affected by Euro's.
 

mhead bee

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Disagree with that mate. I'd much rather vulnerable people who have been stuck inside their homes for 9 months (and could die if they catch it) get the vaccine than elite footballers.
You do know it is not just the vulnerable who have been stuck in their homes or 9 months don't you?

My 14 and 16 year old's stay in bed until 4PM, I dragged them up yesterday at 3, they got straight back in again and said what's the point and I couldn't disagree. Their education has already taken a pounding, their social life has deteriorated into nothing and their people skills are pretty much non existent. My son spent 2 days a week at college for around 6-8 weeks and other than that has been in his bedroom since February.

This isn't just all about the vulnerable who in some cases have poor health due to their personal lifestyle choices, my father in law is 80 and recently widowed and is now a hermit so I get that argument, but he is very capable of staying in doors and distancing whilst I continue to watch football which is my only rest-bite. I am not sure how I am going to handle another 4 weeks plus of staring and the walls at home, I am at the end of my tether. I am sick of my kids lying either in bed or on the bed all day and all night and me getting up for another day of nothing.

The latest I heard is that they are going to test all kids before they go to school and then if they are isolating they are going to test them every day for 7 days, if we can do this we can certainly test test 20 "elite" football players twice a week, as nocoat says above, football is as important in the coming months as anything and 99% of the populatuion have given up everything to protect the 1% so it is not much to ask that we also get something out of it.
 

rebus

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Mansfield's game with Salford has been called off due to an unplayable pitch (snow lying). Unremarkable in itself, except that:
"Mansfield said that because of the coronavirus pandemic, they were unable to ask volunteers to help remove an inch of snow from the surface."
Mansfield-Salford off because of snow

If the players (and matchday staff) were cleared to play on it later, could they not also have cleared the snow themselves beforehand? I mean, 20-odd people shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with an inch of snow? No?
What are they clearing it with, their hands? They would need tools that are transmissible, as are 20 people roaming around in a Covid-secure environment.
 

mhead bee

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Mansfield's game with Salford has been called off due to an unplayable pitch (snow lying). Unremarkable in itself, except that:
"Mansfield said that because of the coronavirus pandemic, they were unable to ask volunteers to help remove an inch of snow from the surface."
Mansfield-Salford off because of snow

If the players (and matchday staff) were cleared to play on it later, could they not also have cleared the snow themselves beforehand? I mean, 20-odd people shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with an inch of snow? No?

So it is really cancelled due to weather conditions, or did it fail a pitch inspection within 28 days of contracting the snow?
 

cheshirebee

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You do know it is not just the vulnerable who have been stuck in their homes or 9 months don't you?

My 14 and 16 year old's stay in bed until 4PM, I dragged them up yesterday at 3, they got straight back in again and said what's the point and I couldn't disagree. Their education has already taken a pounding, their social life has deteriorated into nothing and their people skills are pretty much non existent. My son spent 2 days a week at college for around 6-8 weeks and other than that has been in his bedroom since February.

This isn't just all about the vulnerable who in some cases have poor health due to their personal lifestyle choices, my father in law is 80 and recently widowed and is now a hermit so I get that argument, but he is very capable of staying in doors and distancing whilst I continue to watch football which is my only rest-bite. I am not sure how I am going to handle another 4 weeks plus of staring and the walls at home, I am at the end of my tether. I am sick of my kids lying either in bed or on the bed all day and all night and me getting up for another day of nothing.

The latest I heard is that they are going to test all kids before they go to school and then if they are isolating they are going to test them every day for 7 days, if we can do this we can certainly test test 20 "elite" football players twice a week, as nocoat says above, football is as important in the coming months as anything and 99% of the populatuion have given up everything to protect the 1% so it is not much to ask that we also get something out of it.
 

cheshirebee

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I think CT Bee was talking about vaccination whereas you seem to be talking about testing. Don’t think anyone is arguing to stop or reduce testing for elite footballers.
 

Gee Bee

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You do know it is not just the vulnerable who have been stuck in their homes or 9 months don't you?

My 14 and 16 year old's stay in bed until 4PM, I dragged them up yesterday at 3, they got straight back in again and said what's the point and I couldn't disagree. Their education has already taken a pounding, their social life has deteriorated into nothing and their people skills are pretty much non existent. My son spent 2 days a week at college for around 6-8 weeks and other than that has been in his bedroom since February.

This isn't just all about the vulnerable who in some cases have poor health due to their personal lifestyle choices, my father in law is 80 and recently widowed and is now a hermit so I get that argument, but he is very capable of staying in doors and distancing whilst I continue to watch football which is my only rest-bite. I am not sure how I am going to handle another 4 weeks plus of staring and the walls at home, I am at the end of my tether. I am sick of my kids lying either in bed or on the bed all day and all night and me getting up for another day of nothing.

The latest I heard is that they are going to test all kids before they go to school and then if they are isolating they are going to test them every day for 7 days, if we can do this we can certainly test test 20 "elite" football players twice a week, as nocoat says above, football is as important in the coming months as anything and 99% of the populatuion have given up everything to protect the 1% so it is not much to ask that we also get something out of it.
We haven't been stuck in our homes for 9 months. Lockdown always allowed you to leave our bedrooms and homes. Could you not take your kids out for some fresh air, even if you sit outside for a takeaway or take a football with you, for a kick about. Its the whole family that need to be involved in doing something as a family, you'll get teenage tantrums at times, but once out and about they can still use their phones etc. But they can meet one person outside a few times a week socially distanced.
Testing at schools needs to be correctly implemented with people who know what they are doing, that is simply in shortage. Expecting teachers to do it is not on either, as they are there to teach. They will need testing at least weekly and that is a huge task. Teachers should also be in the key workers arena to get a vaccine. Some form of shift pattern schooling could be implemented until a high % of vulnerable have had their vaccine.
The Oxford vaccine gives us hope that it can be rolled out to more people more quickly, but I would add that although deaths are 1% of the population most vulnerable, it is not just that 1% taking up hospital beds, they're are some very sick people without underlying conditions and others with the underlying condition being, something that you wouldn't expect to die from as they're controlled by drugs such as hypertension, asthma, skin conditions etc etc. Most will recover but only if there are oxygen supply beds available.
 

DidntYouUsedToBee

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It is not just that 1% taking up hospital beds, they're are some very sick people without underlying conditions and others with the underlying condition being, something that you wouldn't expect to die from as they're controlled by drugs such as hypertension, asthma, skin conditions etc etc. Most will recover but only if there are oxygen supply beds available.
Crucial people understand this. We will all suffer when the hospitals fill up. People will die of other conditions that could have been treated. The main issue is our health service will be overwhelmed and there will be no health care for anyone.
 

Gee Bee

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Crucial people understand this. We will all suffer when the hospitals fill up. People will die of other conditions that could have been treated. The main issue is our health service will be overwhelmed and there will be no health care for anyone.
The problem stems from the concentration on death numbers, leading to some media outlets telling us that only 377 people have died who who weren't over 60 or having a underlying condition. Firstly 60 is not old!! and if you're a fit 80 year old why should you be cast aside as an irrelevance. Plus the underlying conditions are very treatable conditions in the main and people shouldn't need to die early. Yes some of the underlying conditions are lifestyle choices that got then the condition, but you continue to try and educate and implement procedures to reduce the numbers sucked in by lifestyle choice, especially smoking, drinking & obesity.
 

Shamrock_Bee

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I love football and it would be a hard couple of months without it. Word of the PL suggesting a two week circuit break is playing good politics. It's best football make their own decisions, seen to take their responsibilities seriously and show the government they can react. The alternative is the authorities step in and insist on a longer, harsher stop to football.

The government etc see the PL as one big workforce. They had 18 positive cases yesterday, with the R number above 1 this is at least another 18 infected who go on to infect 18 etc. If a company had 18 positive cases in it's 2000 workforce an outbreak would be declared and it's likely they'd have to close or all work from home for period of time.

Football has become complacent; I like the PL's idea and the EFL should follow suit. Lets stop for two or three weeks; remind everyone of the requirements, deep clean down all areas.

I feel the government are planning to lock down significant areas of society to March/April to beat this virus once and for all whilst at the same time rolling out the most signficant vaccine programme ever. Football can't afford three months off so it is best we do something now to limit the damage and allow our seasons to finish on time. If we continue and positive cases keep increasing within football we could end up with a three to four month suspension of football, we have to react and act now.
 

The Pipe

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Maybe I am out of step with the vast majority but as far as I am concerned if Football was cancelled now and this season rolled into next it would not bother me.

I dip into the games in TV from time to time but with no fans find the games to be pretty sterile and just an excuse for so called experts to witter along and pretty much say nothing.

If as we all hope there is to be light at the end of the tunnel come April time then perhaps the best thing is to put all our efforts into trying to eradicate the disease by eradicating social interactions, I fully accept that sportsmen are contained within their own social bubble but that only applies within the parameters of the club and we have seen with Fulham and Man City it is not totally effective

Obviously everyone on here is a football fan but really is it worth watching at present? Or would the chance of eradicating the problem with short term pain be beneficial to society long term??
 

hanworthbee

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All the talk of circuit breakers is a load of cobblers...we've had lockdowns schools and colleges shut, half the nation working from home and we are no better off than when we started
 

hatfieldbee

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Bloody Hell! Ref has now abandoned the match after 15 mins - unsafe pitch? - despite it having been passed fit at 5 pm.

Harrowgate players protesting - they were already 1-0 up - and fans booing.
How do you spell Harrogate??!! (and in your other post). Why?!
 

Ealing Bee

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All the talk of circuit breakers is a load of cobblers...we've had lockdowns schools and colleges shut, half the nation working from home and we are no better off than when we started
There can be no doubt that we're a hell of a sight better off even now, than if we hadn't had all those measures in the first place.

As GK Chesterton used to say: "If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing badly."
 

hatfieldbee

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All the talk of circuit breakers is a load of cobblers...we've had lockdowns schools and colleges shut, half the nation working from home and we are no better off than when we started
Big Sam raised the possibility of a circuit breaker as a diversion from the Baggies 5-0 home thrashing by Leeds. Don't even call them Dirty Leeds any more! It was all Romaine's fault!
 

Ealing Bee

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How do you spell Harrogate??!! (and in your other post). Why?!
Possibly confusing it with Harrow?

Up until a few years ago, I never made that sort of mistake - my memory and spelling etc were genuinely excellent eg people in the office used to give me important documents to proof read for instance. But along with my eyesight and my knees, those things have begun to deteriorate - it happens.

Now what did I come into this room for?
 

nathanbee

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Maybe I am out of step with the vast majority but as far as I am concerned if Football was cancelled now and this season rolled into next it would not bother me.

I dip into the games in TV from time to time but with no fans find the games to be pretty sterile and just an excuse for so called experts to witter along and pretty much say nothing.

If as we all hope there is to be light at the end of the tunnel come April time then perhaps the best thing is to put all our efforts into trying to eradicate the disease by eradicating social interactions, I fully accept that sportsmen are contained within their own social bubble but that only applies within the parameters of the club and we have seen with Fulham and Man City it is not totally effective

Obviously everyone on here is a football fan but really is it worth watching at present? Or would the chance of eradicating the problem with short term pain be beneficial to society long term??
Whilst it's better than nothing, it does highlight how so few football matches are worth watching ... apart from your own team.
 

Gee Bee

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All the talk of circuit breakers is a load of cobblers...we've had lockdowns schools and colleges shut, half the nation working from home and we are no better off than when we started
Well when we had schools and colleges shut the infection rate dropped, albeit they weren't completely closed as many were open for key workers children and vulnerable. So it did work. We currently have a higher growing infection rate since opening schools and universities' up. A school testing regime should probably have been implemented in September having had 2 months summer holiday to pull together the logistics.
I believe Premier league and Championship should continue, squads are bigger and managing regular testing can be concentrated in those divisions. Put on hold FA cup, league 1 and 2. The league programmes can be started again in March and continue to June, as they are not affected much by the Euros. Next season then starts a few weeks later. Hopefully by May the most vulnerable and most over 50's would have the vaccine and life continues back to normal.
 

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The problem stems from the concentration on death numbers, leading to some media outlets telling us that only 377 people have died who who weren't over 60 or having a underlying condition. Firstly 60 is not old!! and if you're a fit 80 year old why should you be cast aside as an irrelevance. Plus the underlying conditions are very treatable conditions in the main and people shouldn't need to die early. Yes some of the underlying conditions are lifestyle choices that got then the condition, but you continue to try and educate and implement procedures to reduce the numbers sucked in by lifestyle choice, especially smoking, drinking & obesity.
Not to mention the fact that thousands of younger people have caught it and suffering with weird long Covid symptoms that will further drain scarce NHS resources and potentially affect them for years. My 36 year old son still finds the taste of much that he eats or drinks unpleasant. He thinks had it last March.
All sorts of other neurological problems caused by it will also add to the mental health crisis.
 
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As I've mentioned previously I'm in the privileged position of working in the red zone at Southampton as a Paramedic and I'm tested weekly along with players, coaches, physios, doctors, etc and it is taken very seriously. Yes it does cost £150 but it's not as simple as that as the company that provides the testing requires blocks of 80 bookings. Brentford would have to do similar and that is where it becomes a cost issue for smaller clubs.

Cup competitions provide an added complication / danger in that if it is PL Vs EFL then you have PL players who are tested and all those in supporting roles around them but an EFL club turns up with no testing and the promise that they have behaved themselves and stuck to bubbles / social distancing.

As for a circuit break I'd say no as the way it is going there might not be a good time to restart as it may get worse!!
 

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