Do we need to rethink loan policy?

Shamrock_Bee

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I understand our model, and the need to keep a clear pathway for B team players to make it into the first team. We had a centre half crisis and brought in Winston Reid in January.

However when you look across at the likes of Swansea, they've added a number of loans into their squad, Sheff Utd did something similar in their promotion season as did Leeds.

I wouldn't want us to change our model too much, but in a 46 game season, do we need to add genuine depth to our squad and balance developing players with ensuring we're able to rotate and get through the relentless of a championship season?
 

WARFIELD BEE

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I understand our model, and the need to keep a clear pathway for B team players to make it into the first team. We had a centre half crisis and brought in Winston Reid in January.

However when you look across at the likes of Swansea, they've added a number of loans into their squad, Sheff Utd did something similar in their promotion season as did Leeds.

I wouldn't want us to change our model too much, but in a 46 game season, do we need to add genuine depth to our squad and balance developing players with ensuring we're able to rotate and get through the relentless of a championship season?
Swansea are of course in receipt of parachute payments and able to offer bigger wages.
 
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Shamrock_Bee

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Swansea are of course in receipt of parachute payments and able to offer bigger wages.
That is a fair point, I think this is the last season they receive the payments, so maybe they're throwing money at it this season. I wouldn't expect expensive loans, we understand the financial side of things, but I just wonder if we can find a creative solution. This "bottling" it claim from other clubs is likely more we just run out of steam, and don't have the genuine depth.
 

Isleworth_Bee

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The one club you would have to look at loans giving them a bounce is QPR. Austin, Johansen etc have given them a real boost.

But as we know we dont prefer them.
 

wanderer paul

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No. We loan for cover. We buy to add value.

Reid was good cover.

A loanee, of quality, wouldn’t have wanted to warm a bench. Plus the parent Club would want guarantees etc.

No use bringing in a player 18-20 years old when we have B team players of the same type.

So, the answer is no.
 

WARFIELD BEE

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That is a fair point, I think this is the last season they receive the payments, so maybe they're throwing money at it this season. I wouldn't expect expensive loans, we understand the financial side of things, but I just wonder if we can find a creative solution. This "bottling" it claim from other clubs is likely more we just run out of steam, and don't have the genuine depth.
Mention loans and you get jumped on.
 

wanderer paul

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No. Mention loans and you get a reply. Which is, more than likely, nearer the truth. 🤷‍♂️

* Josh Maja (now at Fulham) would’ve been good, however, what has he cost Fulham in fees?
 
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Shamrock_Bee

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I just think we won't have the finance for a big squad, and it's maybe something we need to consider if we're ultimately ever going to get promoted. As a business model our current policy works, but as of yet the model hasn't got us promoted to the PL.

I'm not saying bringing in loans will guarantee promotion, but at the same time would three or four Winston Reid type players in different positions, adding experience, cover and allowing us to genuinely rest our better players without making us leaderless get us over the line? 🤷‍♂️

I get the argument on finance and "B team" but is it possible to have 15 or 16 ready made first team players, a few squad players and then use the "B team" to provide cover and develop them as players as well as getting through a 46 game season with the ultimate achievement of winning promotion; so far the answer is no, but I hope one day it is possible.
 

jlove

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I think the estimated cost to Swansea for Connor Hourihane is £4M, fees plus wage contribution.
 

Hippobee

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Never say never. The problem will always be that someone that is good enough to genuinely give the team a bounce will be expecting to be a regular first choice by order of their parent club. The BFC model will never guarantee that, or even make that likely. It's basically a financial gamble isn't it - if that player makes the difference and helps get us promoted, it will have been well worth it. If they don't, then MB ends up spending a tidy sum on wages and a loan fee with nothing to show for it. What we are really lacking at the moment is some experience on the pitch - I'm surprised someone else, other than Reid didn't come in, but I doubt it was for the want of trying.
 

jlove

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Could make £150M profit on that investment by May though
I think the Club factor in the could. That oft-quoted figure of Premier League income is not "profit", we'd probably end up spending most of it over the season anyway; it's not a free hit.

I'm sure, at the end of the season, we could all list the players we could have signed in January...
 

hardybee

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It think it can be used in a positive way. Maybe not at the start of the season but if the player is there at the right price then why not??

We don’t want to block B team players paths but at the winter transfer window you’ve had chance to look at the squad, injuries, players with slight injuries and also what the squad is lacking and if there isn’t a player in the b team who can give you that competition or cover then it’s of course worth it. It could be the difference in promotion. But I’m sure the club look at individual deals, if we need a player and it’s a good deal I’m sure the club don’t say well it’s only a loan and we don’t do loans. Like most have said I just don’t think very often it’s a deal that gives you enough return.
 
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Shamrock_Bee

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I think the Club factor in the could. That oft-quoted figure of Premier League income is not "profit", we'd probably end up spending most of it over the season anyway; it's not a free hit.

I'm sure, at the end of the season, we could all list the players we could have signed in January...
Maybe ultimately whilst punching way above our weight and being so thankful to MB, for putting the structures/finance to make us a competitive championship club, promotion will always be beyond us, certainly under the current model.

It's a big ask to compete against clubs with paracute payments. Chris Wilder talked a few years back about coming close, but falling away around March due to a lack of genuine squad depth. He had an honest conversation with his board that summer, they added more depth and in the January of their promotion season added more. His theory was, you need to firstly have the depth to run the marathon, then have the quality to compete. At the minute we have the quality, but aren't able to run the full marathon

Balancing the business and football team is difficult; it would make it all the more remarkable if we got there doing it our way. Last season was fantastic but maybe in a way, it was the perfect opportunity to do it using our model as we had a three month mid season break.
 

mhead bee

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No, you don’t change an unbelievable strategy after 3 defeats when you are sitting second in the table.

More knee jerk stuff after a defeat, close the thread.
 

w7 bee

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The one club you would have to look at loans giving them a bounce is QPR. Austin, Johansen etc have given them a real boost.

But as we know we dont prefer them.
That will be costing them a tidy sum in a limited income season.
 

WARFIELD BEE

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No. Mention loans and you get a reply. Which is, more than likely, nearer the truth. 🤷‍♂️

* Josh Maja (now at Fulham) would’ve been good, however, what has he cost Fulham in fees?
See#16 from someone who has been on the inside, if you mention loans people say we don't do loans because we don't want to develop other teams players
etc too expensive, wont want to come as backup, and many other reasons, even though we do (Reid)
All of the above have been mentioned when I have suggested loans,many championship teams are using the system.
 

sonofabee

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The one club you would have to look at loans giving them a bounce is QPR. Austin, Johansen etc have given them a real boost.

But as we know we dont prefer them.
Charlie Austin is a player I don’t anywhere near our club, the players don’t even like him at the Bush but suffer him because he scores goals. Truth is he’s an overweight, undisciplined c*k* head who knows where the net is.
 

wanderer paul

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See#16 from someone who has been on the inside, if you mention loans people say we don't do loans because we don't want to develop other teams players
etc too expensive, wont want to come as backup, and many other reasons, even though we do (Reid)
All of the above have been mentioned when I have suggested loans,many championship teams are using the system.
Reid was for a reason, as cover!! Losing Pontus, Jeanvier (serious injury - on loan) and Racic (injured - recalled) Brentford had to act. Simple as that.

Brentford aren’t interested in loanees unless they are for sale and we can develop them into better players and -maybe - sell on!

We don’t loan in players to fill the bench.
 
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Shamrock_Bee

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No, you don’t change an unbelievable strategy after 3 defeats when you are sitting second in the table.

More knee jerk stuff after a defeat, close the thread.
It was just a genuine question, there is smarter people than me running the business and there is no doubt they're running it perfectly. We're getting closer to promotion and personally I'd be happy if we stay a championship club for the next twenty years.

The aim of the club is becoming a PL football team though. The championship is becoming a more lucative league, developing B team players is a great model through the championship, it helps the business long term but does it result in dropped points during the season! I'd say the statistics show it probably does.

I think using the loan market in a creative way, with a sensible financial mind is a skill; if you don't use it yes you can still be successful but can you ultimately win promotion, so far the answer is no because clubs use it skillfully to give them an edge - in some cases it's players we're developing against the finished article, that is where from a football point of view you lose some points over a season.
 
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Mr Tree

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We can't loan anyone at the moment, so no rethink required. Play the cards you're dealt.
 

WARFIELD BEE

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Reid was for a reason, as cover!! Losing Pontus, Jeanvier (serious injury - on loan) and Racic (injured - recalled) Brentford had to act. Simple as that.

Brentford aren’t interested in loanees unless they are for sale and we can develop them into better players and -maybe - sell on!

We don’t loan in players to fill the bench.
Most of the loanees are suggested as cover or to strengthen squad.
 

HaylingBee74

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No. Mention loans and you get a reply. Which is, more than likely, nearer the truth. 🤷‍♂️

* Josh Maja (now at Fulham) would’ve been good, however, what has he cost Fulham in fees?
I did post about him and that Bordeaux were short of money and trying to sell him (though I cant find my post using search)
 

Isleworth_Bee

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Charlie Austin is a player I don’t anywhere near our club, the players don’t even like him at the Bush but suffer him because he scores goals. Truth is he’s an overweight, undisciplined c*k* head who knows where the net is.
Without doubt. My point being the loans can benefit you and your performance levels. I wouldnt have wanted either of them here.
 

wanderer paul

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Most of the loanees are suggested as cover or to strengthen squad.
Who and at what cost? You want a left back or a forward to sit on the bench or play B games before it's their turn? That isn't going to happen. As you're stifling the B team players we sign from making their mark. You won't get a named player to come here and sit on his backside waiting for an injury and the costs involved just aren't worth it. Reid was signed for a reason. In January, we didn't need anyone else. Hindsight...... IF ONLY...... etc etc.
 

WARFIELD BEE

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Who and at what cost? You want a left back or a forward to sit on the bench or play B games before it's their turn? That isn't going to happen. As you're stifling the B team players we sign from making their mark. You won't get a named player to come here and sit on his backside waiting for an injury and the costs involved just aren't worth it. Reid was signed for a reason. In January, we didn't need anyone else. Hindsight...... IF ONLY...... etc etc.
You didn't need hindsight to know having no cover for Rico (without players playing out of position) was madness.
 

Wise old Bee

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It takes a long time for a B team player to be able to fit seamlessly into the first team but surely this route is preferable to getting in loanees where the parent club make the loan conditional on appearances. Our problem has been when we loan out players. Racic, for example, went backwards during his move and he is not the first. Equally, Forss did really well but has lost momentum with lack of games and being played out of position. A difficult balancing act but to get quality loan players in is costly and hinders the development of our existing squad. I make an exception for keepers in exceptional circumstances.
 

wanderer paul

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You didn't need hindsight to know having no cover for Rico (without players playing out of position) was madness.
The cover is Sorensen, Janelt and Gordon. Whether we like it or not. That’s it.
 

Col T

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Charlie Austin is a player I don’t anywhere near our club, the players don’t even like him at the Bush but suffer him because he scores goals. Truth is he’s an overweight, undisciplined c*k* head who knows where the net is.
But what do you really think of Mr Austin, Sonofabee?
 

King Bee

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No use bringing in a player 18-20 years old when we have B team players of the same type.
Whilst I agree with the no loan policy, I also think there’s little value in having a bench made up of B teamers if you’re not going to use them. I appreciate introducing the likes of Gilbert etc were unlikely to influence the outcome of the game but when and where else are they likely to have that opportunity? Meantime, we have loaned out are only left back cover and in Halil, a striker that could have least offered another option to Forss.
 

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Only of the basis of try before you buy. Winston is an exception although he might want to stay when he compares us to his owners.
 

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Ordinarily I agree with the policy of not having loan players..... look at Derby, good under Lampard because they had some strong young loan players but then remove them and they have nothing, witnessed by their current position. Overall our policy is not just sensible, it’s a brilliant way to run the club.

However this is an unprecedented season. The schedule is punishing and we probably have the best chance of promotion that we have had since being in the Championship. But we are clearly short of options in both midfield and out wide. One or two coming in on loan to make a short term impact could have made the difference. Who do we turn for the next game? We just don’t have options to freshen the team and our B team are nowhere near ready to support a promotion push out of the championship. Yes a loan signing will have helped another club develop a player, but it could have also provided us with the injection we need.
 

hardybee

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There is no doubt the loan market works for some clubs. Look at Jack Harrison for Leeds, he’s been one of their best players for the last three seasons and also Ben White last season, they had one of the best CB in the division to help get them promoted. When Derby got to the play offs under Lampard, the spine of their team was Tomouri, Mount, Wilson, and yes they might of lost those players once promoted but they wouldn’t of been anywhere near without them. The list goes on of decent loan players.

I agree it wouldn’t be good to have a team made up of loan players but would 1 or 2 to get you over the finish line be so bad? I don’t agree that a loan player is signed to sit on the bench and wait for an injury, the form some of the players have shown the last 3 games, I’m sure a quality loan player would be getting game time. I’ve not seen any of the B team that can offer genuine competition for the wide areas and on current form Canos and Bryan wouldn’t be starting if we had another option. Also it’s brilliant business from Swansea bringing Conor Hourihane in, there is no denying that, he wouldn’t be sat on our bench, he would definitely be getting game time. Before I get asked for more examples and names, like I said I don’t no who was available and at what price but you can’t just dismiss the loan market entirely.
 

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I think Jim Levack but it best on Twitter when he said that in this instance our obsession with getting ‘long-term value’ has been to the detriment of the team and its chances of success this season.

Of course we should’ve reconsidered our attitude to the loan market, especially in a season of two games a week. One or two players could’ve made a huge difference.
 

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Everyone here always says that we’ve not needed them when all they’d be doing is warming the bench, which I completely agree with, but are the likes of Canos, Mbeumo, Ghoddos etc so good that no one could possibly compete for their shirts?

A loan player with no resale value is still a good investment if they help get you to the premier league. If Swansea get promoted in our stead, then the £4m they’re paying for Hourihane will arguably be one of the signings of the season.
 

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The long term value for us and our club, is for those B team players, we are nurturing to step up and take there chance, as and when it occurs.
If we were mid-table then that’s fine. This window was a golden chance to cement a place in the top 2.

We took a chance that we wouldn’t get any more significant injuries and it’s badly backfired.
 

rebus

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I think Jim Levack but it best on Twitter when he said that in this instance our obsession with getting ‘long-term value’ has been to the detriment of the team and its chances of success this season.

Of course we should’ve reconsidered our attitude to the loan market, especially in a season of two games a week. One or two players could’ve made a huge difference.
Every year our squad gets stronger. I’m happy with the strategy. Football is mostly about managing failure.
 

Infatuated Bees Alter Ego

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If we were mid-table then that’s fine. This window was a golden chance to cement a place in the top 2.

We took a chance that we wouldn’t get any more significant injuries and it’s badly backfired.
Thats how we as a club roll. Surely you appreciate that. The huge expense, time and effort is on bringing these B team players and from within and not adding any value to loan players and there own clubs.
 

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