European Super League

[beebopalula]

Very easy to say let em go etc, however the whole football pyramid to a degree is built on the Sky, BT monies, take the glamorous clubs out and watch the TV deal disintegrate on its next review.

All clubs to a greater or lesser degree survive on the TV monies, recall speaking to an Exeter fan after their replay with Man U. The TV monies ensured their continued existence!!

With no knowledge I would imagine this is a stance from the clubs involved who, if they get their way will be delighted, but who also are prepared for some discussion and compromise in the short term.

It is abhorrent to all genuine football fans but for the millions of TV fans around the world who buy the shirts and bet on results to see The top clubs playing each other every week it will be extremely appealing and, for the foreign owners, it’s more money guaranteed each season and facilitates taking “ the product” around the globe.

Whilst in its present form it may not go ahead I don’t think there is any doubt that a bastardised form will be with us within a very few years.

Yet another reason to be totally apathetic about football in the future

I'd pick you up on one point re the popularity of football around the world and tv viewing. The current popularity is based on teams playing at the highest level and succeeding in their own competitive domestic leagues. Merit not names. So if clubs participate on the basis of continued closed shop membership and not merit why should viewers be attracted? On what basis are they the best ? Particularly if they are not recognized by the football authorities and their players no longer represent their countries or participate in world cups.

 

[IslandBee]

I know and understand all the reasons why this is a bad idea but if it were to go ahead and the English clubs were kicked out of the Prem, I have to say that the thought of two Championship-type leagues at the top of English football is actually really appealing ie there would be a much more even and competitive top league to add to the already incredibly competitive Championship.

Sure , decreased money would mean the quality would drop, but I reckon the overall level of excitement would increase, with many more teams capable of winning the top league.

 

[nathanbee]

I havent been a Bees fan for 35 years to have "fun" watching my team. I want glory, passion, pain and disappointment. Your standard bedroom emotions, not "fun"

It’s not about replacing the existing pyramid but adding a “format” as Cricket has done. So you can still follow your team and rant at the manager and board and howl at the moon

 

[Les Beeavinu]

I know and understand all the reasons why this is a bad idea but if it were to go ahead and the English clubs were kicked out of the Prem, I have to say that the thought of two Championship-type leagues at the top of English football is actually really appealing ie there would be a much more even and competitive top league to add to the already incredibly competitive Championship.

That thought has crossed my mind a few times. But money .......

 

[West Wilts Bee]

Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea,Man City,Arsenal, are all owned by foreigners. My Man Utd supporting mate hates the glaziers if that is how it is spelt.these are English clubs not owned by English company’s or persons. Like vcmazz I don’t give a sh*t about them, its Brentford or nothing. But football was a working mans game, it was British . Now these Arabs and Americans have got hold of our famous clubs and f***ed our (or trying) clubs up. Why did we not see this coming?

 

[Garybaldbee]

From the Guardian live stream, a suggestion well worth giving some thought to:

“National government may have limited formal powers to stop any super league. But local government may have more, stronger and long forgotten powers. Football Clubs use the name of their towns and cities with the permission of the local council. If Liverpool Council decides it no longer wants Liverpool FC to bear its name, then they could withdraw that right. The club could still exist and play in the new ESL but call itself something else (Red Mersey?) but they could no longer call itself Liverpool. That would be an utterly extraordinary move but maybe even the threat would be something.”

I doubt very much that this is right. It might apply to the incorporation of civic crests into club badges but a local authority has no powers over the names of businesses located in their area.

 

[Jay Bee]

Brings back memories of Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket when the best players took the money and walked away from test cricket. I think that this Super League will happen in one form or another and that, despite their initial defiance, the FA etc. will cave in and an unsatisfactory compromise will result. Personally won't watch it or take any interest.

....yep...Packer sprung to mind when I saw this too....and what a Billy Smarts that was...let them get on with it....the legacy they leave behind is a far more level playing field......but I do hope their big top burns and crashes......with the clowns still inside.

It does make you wonder, with players, how much money is enough. I think the top players (the level below Messi, Ronaldo etc because that gets even more ridiculous) earn as much on a week as the average British person does in nearly 8 years!!!

And that doesn’t include any additional money (sponsorship, performance goal or win bonuses etc)

The comparison with Kerry Packer is interesting.
I think the difference is that there as a fair degree of motivation from the players involved on that occasion. Even top cricketers weren't paid a decent wage at the time (per Wikipedia " the widespread view that players were not paid sufficient amounts to make a living from cricket") the Australian board was turning down subscription TV money out of loyalty to the previous broadcasters. So the competition was created to benefit both players and broadcasters. And once the necessary deal had been done for Australian test coverage the whole thing was disbanded.

What do the players think this time, I wonder? There must be a hundred PL players on 50k a week which is already 100x the average wage in this country. How strong would their motivation be to earn even more money...in return for more games and more international travel of course.

 

[nathanbee]

Very easy to say let em go etc, however the whole football pyramid to a degree is built on the Sky, BT monies, take the glamorous clubs out and watch the TV deal disintegrate on its next review.

All clubs to a greater or lesser degree survive on the TV monies, recall speaking to an Exeter fan after their replay with Man U. The TV monies ensured their continued existence!!

Something has to change. Seemingly, 3 or 4 of the 12 have debts in excess of $1billon. With wages and transfer fees only heading in one direction, they are desperate and have to do something. So, yes, change is inevitable.

 

[LingfieldBee]

That thought has crossed my mind a few times. But money .......

Pay the players less? With change comes comprises players will have to accept lesser wages. Simple maths less money less big salaries. Players move for real ambitions/love of sport rather than greed.

 

[Nada Bee]

I know and understand all the reasons why this is a bad idea but if it were to go ahead and the English clubs were kicked out of the Prem, I have to say that the thought of two Championship-type leagues at the top of English football is actually really appealing ie there would be a much more even and competitive top league to add to the already incredibly competitive Championship.

Sure , decreased money would mean the quality would drop, but I reckon the overall level of excitement would increase, with many more teams capable of winning the top league.

I don’t care if the quality is sh*t or not. I go to football to enjoy and support Brentford. Sure it’s nice to succeed but at the end of the day a 3-2 win is still a 3-2 win whether it’s Everton or Scunthorpe!

 

[hanworthbee]

The head of uefa has said any player that plays in the ESL will be banned from international competition

 

[mhead bee]

Except no German team has singed up for it and half the teams are from England!

Which of course is a true point

 

[SpiderBee]

Where would this new league get its match officials from?

 

[West Wilts Bee]

Where would this new league get its match officials from?

Send Keith Stroud out there.

 

[hanwellbee]

Where would this new league get its match officials from?

They're welcome to some of the ones we've had this season...

 

[West Wilts Bee]

Something has to change. Seemingly, 3 or 4 of the 12 have debts in excess of $1billon. With wages and transfer fees only heading in one direction, they are desperate and have to do something. So, yes, change is inevitable.

These greedy clubs will always be in debt. The bigger the carrot the more they want. There is only so far that they can go.

 

[PhilE]

Appeasement never pays. Confront them.

Totally agree. Make concessions today and they will know that they have the power to threaten and force their arm any time they want.

I know and understand all the reasons why this is a bad idea but if it were to go ahead and the English clubs were kicked out of the Prem, I have to say that the thought of two Championship-type leagues at the top of English football is actually really appealing ie there would be a much more even and competitive top league to add to the already incredibly competitive Championship.

Sure , decreased money would mean the quality would drop, but I reckon the overall level of excitement would increase, with many more teams capable of winning the top league.

Yep without a doubt it would make for a much more exciting league. Maybe the quality is not quite the same in the Championship as in the PL but arguably it is better for it as it creates inconsistencies and adds to the drama - I'd love to see such a format at the top of the PL. In terms of TV money - of course it will drop with a corresponding drop in big player names but maybe a deal could be struck to give terrestrial TV (specifically the BBC) some live PL games to make it more accessible. If done right it will create a new 'Big 6' in a few years, with its own big names and the current lot can fly of into their money purchased sun.

 

[Untouchable]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383848231524724741

 

[WarrenBee]

Football fans are so fickle, Mourinho gets the sack after leading Spurs to the European Super League for the first time in their history!!

 

[HaylingBee74]

Give these 12 teams an extra qualifying round against each other for the Champions League. First leg in Asia, 2nd leg in USA.
If that isn’t enough the 6 winners playoff for 3 Champions league places

 

[hitchinb]

Something has to change. Seemingly, 3 or 4 of the 12 have debts in excess of $1billon. With wages and transfer fees only heading in one direction, they are desperate and have to do something. So, yes, change is inevitable.

The financial strategy of the owners of these clubs has been to take on debt. It's what venture capitalists do. Now it's bitten them in the arse - tough.

 

[IslandBee]

That thought has crossed my mind a few times. But money .......

Yep, less TV money, so lower player wages and a drop in quality. But given this adjustment, might it be survivable? No idea tbh!

 

[mhead bee]

Sure , decreased money would mean the quality would drop,

Change that to the "salaries" would drop.

 

[Nada Bee]

Freelance footballers. Auctioning of players for the season.

you know with cricket I kind of understood it, the game had virtually no money so this was a chance to get the best players some money and be able to have even a degree of wealth like their footballing counter parts.

but this? This is just pure greed. The rich will get richer. Sure, anything UEFA say is pure hypocrisy in retaliation to this, but how on earth can any team be £1bn in debt with the money floating about?!

Wage caps and spending caps should have come in a long time ago

The £1m per game player isn’t far away....

 

[IslandBee]

I don’t care if the quality is sh*t or not. I go to football to enjoy and support Brentford. Sure it’s nice to succeed but at the end of the day a 3-2 win is still a 3-2 win whether it’s Everton or Scunthorpe!

Depends what you mean by 'quality' - I would always want us to keep the style of play we have at the moment, but this is still possible with players less technically gifted than ours currently are so in that respect 'quality' would not be an issue for me either.

 

[HerefordB]

As has been recently discovered, football without fans and passion is a sterile yawnfest anyway. Sky, PL greed, foreign owners chasing a fast buck and overpaid prima donna footballers have destroyed the game and the so called Super League is just another nail in its coffin. True supporters come way down the list of priorities of importance.

 

[IslandBee]

Change that to the "salaries" would drop.

Yep, I filled in the mediating variable in post 272

 

[RAF_Patto]

I'm just waiting for Matt Hancock's second cousin to be involved with this now....

 

[Ealing Bee]

Yeah? 100% fan owned Barcelona haven’t had a problem with it.

Barca are already a reported €1.2bn in debt, with an extra half a billion euro+ to find to rebuild the Camp Nou.

As things stand, there is no way that they can clear that debt in less than a decade, during which time the team would undoubtedly suffer.

Meaning the choice is:
A. The fans stump up the billions needed;
B. The team falls back amongst the Spanish/European also-rans;
C. The new Super League rides to the rescue;

Which do you think the fans will back?

Meanwhile, most Bundesliga clubs are pretty well run financially, with sell-out crowds in big modern stadia and some of the lowest ticket prices in Eiurope, meaning they don't have the same financial incentive of the Spanish (or Italian) clubs which have signed* up to it, nor do they have the same greedy billionaire owners of the 6 English clubs, five of whom are foreign, with the sixth (Lewis/Spurs) seeing it purely as an investment.

* - Conspicuous for their absence amongst the 12 was (ahem) Bayern Munich.

 

[Bristolian Bee]

Was he the guy on James O'Brien show on LBC this morning ? Said he was going to give up his season ticket (didn't catch who he supported) and would rather watch Southall or Brentford. J O'B then said why not and spoke about how impressed he was with our new stadium. Also said he went to Griffin Park a lot and loved the ground. One for the Famous Bees Fans thread ?

At approximately what time was this? Need to listen again.

 

[jbee]

The arrogance of these people that they think they have the complete right simply to squeeze football clubs for all they're worth, when everything that is valuable about them, all the most "marketable" aspects of the "brand" precede them and for the most part organically grew out of fan culture. None of what makes Liverpool so popular has anything to do with the Henrys or anything they have done. You''ll Never Walk Alone has become a perfect slogan for them, like Mes Que Un Club, but the fact is they are not slogans, they mean more than that. The meaning and history of these clubs is being stolen from the people it belongs to, not legally admittedly, but morally.

For the most part the owners of these clubs are disaster capitalists, oligarchs, spoiled children of already rich people or worse, tyrants and slave drivers. They are bottom feeders, the festering waste at the bottom of the compost heap of our game. They are not even entrepeneurs that can be admired outside of football. They should be grateful that they are allowed to squat on top of these institutions like fat rancid toads.

I can already see a capitulation coming that will waste a lot of justified anger about this. Rather than see off the Super League by caving in to more of their demands we need to let them have their little league and watch it fail. They have badly misjudged the public mood here.

 

[Ealing Bee]

The human race really can be nasty

Interesting comment from Uefa president Aleksander Ceferin:

"[Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli is] probably one of the biggest disappointments, or the biggest disappointment of all," said Ceferin.

"I don't want to be too personal. But the fact is that I've never seen a person that would lie so many times, so persistently that he did was unbelievable.

"I spoke with him also on Saturday afternoon. He said, 'These are all only rumours. Don't worry, nothing is going on'. And then he said, 'I'll call you in one hour'. And he turned off the phone."

Ceferin also name-checked Man U's Ed Woodward alongside Agnelli, with the two of them having now stepped down from their roles at Uefa

 

[Nada Bee]

Interesting comment from Uefa president Aleksander Ceferin:

"[Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli is] probably one of the biggest disappointments, or the biggest disappointment of all," said Ceferin.

"I don't want to be too personal. But the fact is that I've never seen a person that would lie so many times, so persistently that he did was unbelievable.

"I spoke with him also on Saturday afternoon. He said, 'These are all only rumours. Don't worry, nothing is going on'. And then he said, 'I'll call you in one hour'. And he turned off the phone."

Ceferin also name-checked Man U's Ed Woodward alongside Agnelli, with the two of them having now stepped down from their roles at Uefa

quite ironic UEFA calling out liars really...

 

[Bristolian Bee]

Rather than see off the Super League by caving in to more of their demands we need to let them have their little league and watch it fail. They have badly misjudged the public mood here.

What makes you think it will fail? The billions of "fans" in Asia will lap it up.

 

[Guildford Bee]

Interesting comment from Uefa president Aleksander Ceferin:

"[Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli is] probably one of the biggest disappointments, or the biggest disappointment of all," said Ceferin.

"I don't want to be too personal. But the fact is that I've never seen a person that would lie so many times, so persistently that he did was unbelievable.

"I spoke with him also on Saturday afternoon. He said, 'These are all only rumours. Don't worry, nothing is going on'. And then he said, 'I'll call you in one hour'. And he turned off the phone."

Ceferin also name-checked Man U's Ed Woodward alongside Agnelli, with the two of them having now stepped down from their roles at Uefa

Apparently Agnelli is the godfather to one of Ceferin’s kids (or the other way round)

 

[Matty D]

I imagine the Premier League could live with those six playing in a midweek Super League instead of the Champions League/Europe – although if it was every single midweek would become an issue. So presumably the battle will be with UEFA, who can’t afford to have their cash cow torpedoed.

Sounds like it’s more advanced than the routine sabre-rattling at negotiation time, but if they’re genuinely not going to be bought off with a bit bigger share of the current pie I don’t know what else UEFA can afford to offer them.

The parallels with US sport need highlighting more – I think those involved believe there’s potential for a bigger income pot from this; but probably more important to them is that without relegation you can have a salary cap without anyone having to risk their place at the table if they cut costs. That can mean bigger profits for all.

Flipside to that is unless you also import the relatively equitable sharing of broadcast income, draft system and post-season playoffs how do you stop a couple of teams dominating, and maintain interest in a relegation-less league after the first few months. Maybe they figure a foreign TV audience will still tune in to dead-rubbers as long as the biggest names are playing them.

 

[Eieieio]

The plans are an utter disgrace.

I don't think it will actually happen, but the audacity of the statement that was put out - which make no mistake about it, is timed while fans are not in stadiums so unable to boycott or really make their voices heard.... makes my blood boil.

dock em all points or relegate em.

 

[jbee]

What makes you think it will fail? The billions of "fans" in Asia will lap it up.

I don't buy that these clubs can survive through fans outside of their home countries. It's a myth. In any case if football became as popular in, say, China, as it is here the people there will demand their own clubs. Same in the USA.

 

[hanworthbee]

We can't just let them all walk away though can we.clubs like us massively rely on the PL money otherwise we'd never have sold players like watkins and benrahma for the money we had....

 

[RAF_Patto]

I don't buy that these clubs can survive through fans outside of their home countries. It's a myth. In any case if football became as popular in, say, China, as it is here the people there will demand their own clubs. Same in the USA.

Of course they can, it's all down to tv, streaming and merchandise revenue. China and the US have their own leagues, not sure if you were aware of that, but the PL and these clubs are global brands. Hence why a pre season dead rubber between Liverpool and An-other team in Australia can attract 100000. They'll just turn this into a global touring tournament.

 

[Freebee]

What makes you think it will fail? The billions of "fans" in Asia will lap it up.

Agreed m8 just like fans here lapped up and payed extortionate prices to watch MLB and NFL games at wembley over the last few years.I doubt that anyone attending those events gave a sh*t about Yankee fans or 49er fans who couldn't go or that it might be devaluing those fans national competitions.

 

[jbee]

Of course they can, it's all down to tv, streaming and merchandise revenue. China and the US have their own leagues, not sure if you were aware of that, but the PL and these clubs are global brands. Hence why a pre season dead rubber between Liverpool and An-other team in Australia can attract 100000. They'll just turn this into a global touring tournament.

I know they have their own leagues, and they can't compete at the moment with the drama of the European leagues. But it is inconceivable to me that football fans in New York would rather support Manchester United than a local team. Investment in their football is going up all the time and eventually domestic clubs will displace the English teams in fans' affections.

These clubs are riding a wave that will eventually drown them. And by disrespecting their histories, they are trampling on part of what makes them attractive to foreign fans in the first place.

 

[Hullbee]

We can't just let them all walk away though can we.clubs like us massively rely on the PL money otherwise we'd never have sold players like watkins and benrahma for the money we had....

you could argue we had to sell and recieve millions for players because the cost of competing has gone through the roof because of television money and PL. without these costs we could just get back to players earning a similar amount to those that watch them each week.

 

[Nada Bee]

There is a bit of me which hopes the Liverpool players pull a "Man City" and lose 8-0 tonight.

 

[keefor]

It will be inevitable.

Certainly as far as English clubs go this is a direct consequence of the setting up of the Premier league in the 90s. Money going into the game and monies going into Sky made an attractive business model that would become a global brand. It is the huge amount of money tied in with the worldwide tv stuff that means not only will this come about but also dictates which teams will be in it. Those with greater 'box office' will be in regardless where they are in the league at this present time (Arsenal, Spurs, etc). On a lesser level, this is why someone like Leeds were on Sky a lot last season compared to someone like Luton Town who were much less 'box office'.

I find it somewhat hypocritical of a number of the 'talking heads' making noises about the 'greed' now when they were more than happy to benefit from the setting up of the Premier league that undoubtedly meant that many 'smaller' clubs were financially worse off as a result.

 

[Ealing Bee]

quite ironic UEFA calling out liars really...

Well yes, no doubt of that.

But while this may be me being naive, I actually think Ceferin may be cut from a different cloth to the usual Blazers at UEFA, if only becuae he's Slovenian i.e. his power base is drawn from the smaller, more peripheral UEFA Members.

Contrast that with his predecessor, the Swiss-Italian Infantini. All you need to know about him is that he has since gone on to replace Blatter at FIFA.

I mean, how many liars' palms did Infantini have to grease to get that job?

 

[Nada Bee]

It will be inevitable.

Certainly as far as English clubs go this is a direct consequence of the setting up of the Premier league in the 90s. Money going into the game and monies going into Sky made an attractive business model that would become a global brand. It is the huge amount of money tied in with the worldwide tv stuff that means not only will this come about but also dictates which teams will be in it. Those with greater 'box office' will be in regardless where they are in the league at this present time (Arsenal, Spurs, etc). On a lesser level, this is why someone like Leeds were on Sky a lot last season compared to someone like Luton Town who were much less 'box office'.

I find it somewhat hypocritical of a number of the 'talking heads' making noises about the 'greed' now when they were more than happy to benefit from the setting up of the Premier league that undoubtedly meant that many 'smaller' clubs were financially worse off as a result.

I agree to a point, but the PL monies nowadays is fairly evenly distributed - giving everyone a chance (ish)

This ESL will only serve in making 'the 6' even richer - they'll be pouring money out of their glands, they could probably even compete with two world class XI teams in both the EPL and the ESL.

Im still sticking by my guns of the teams should be thrown out of the EPL.

Im also unsure why the Leeds v Liverpool game is going ahead. Whats the point?

 

[Ealing Bee]

Apparently Agnelli is the godfather to one of Ceferin’s kids (or the other way round)

According to Football Italia yesterday:

Super League: Agnelli ‘knifed’ Ceferin
Agnelli sought to create a friendship with the UEFA president, who with this move, he has effectively knifed," he wrote on Twitter.
It emerged Agnelli arranged for Ceferin to take a spin in a Ferrari and offered the UEFA Chairman to be the godfather to his six-month-old daughter back in 2019.
The close relationship between Agnelli and Ceferin was not seen positively by several officials who raised the issues back in the days.
"Those rumours in football that are shared all the time are so illogical and so stupid," Ceferin commented.

Whether Ceferin's hands were previously clean in this matter, that suggests that their relationship is now firmly finished.

"Et tu, Brute"?

 

[Beezy]

Americans buy clubs using virtually none of their own money - like heavily mortgaging a house. They also don't like relegation- they don't have it in the US.
it's bad for business. They like money and profit. That's the start and end of it. They like to use leverage to get their way - this is them getting together and holding UEFA etc to ransom. Meanwhile, UEFA and FIFA are imo pretty unpleasant organisations themselves, now have to come up with a compromise. The premier league, sky, bt etc are all complicit in getting us to this point. They've all created a monster.

Time for all the governing bodies, governments, fans and players to make sure this madness isn't allowed to manifest. we've had many many warnings that this day was coming - now it's time to act before it's too late.

Football is our escapism, it's a major part of our happiness - I really hope these money men don't get their way.

 

[RAF_Patto]

And by disrespecting their histories, they are trampling on part of what makes them attractive to foreign fans in the first place.

History doesn't make them attractive, winning does. Its been coming, ever since preseason friendlies were rebranded as 'tournaments', its all a marketing ploy. People in New York don't give a f*** about history, they want to see a world brand and world class players jn front of them. Hence why they're threatening to ban players from internationals.