FCM recruiting unpaid video scouts

vcmazz

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I love the explanation as to why the position is non-paid. It's due to the fact that it's voluntary. Any payment would therefore presumably detract from the voluntaryness of the whole thing and completely spoil it.
 

Simon C

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rebus

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Link to the original post advertising the job absolutely not a job where you do work voluntarily for no compensation: Kristian Kjær on LinkedIn: Do you want to be a part of the recruitment department in the most | 30 comments

IMO it's wrong and sadly a typical example of the type of exploitative behaviour in this part of the football industry. They will generate some value for their business through the efforts of whoever "volunteers", if they wanted that value they should pay for it.
Agree 100 per cent.
 

Banana

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I very much doubt MB has a "net worth close to $1 billion."
 

Les Beeavinu

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I don't get how it can be considered exploitative when an individual has free choice whether they might like to be involved with full transparency that this would be a voluntary role.
 
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jlove

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Didn't Rob Rowan start as a voluntary scout or similar?
 
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I don't get how it can be considered exploitative when an individual has free choice whether they might like to be involved with full transparency that this would be a voluntary role.
Of course they can choose not to apply but so many people are desperate to get their foot in the door that they might well feel they have little option but to apply. If it was made clear this voluntary role could lead to a paid position then I would not feel as uncomfortable about it.
 

Les Beeavinu

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Of course they can choose not to apply but so many people are desperate to get their foot in the door that they might well feel they have little option but to apply. If it was made clear this voluntary role could lead to a paid position then I would not feel as uncomfortable about it.
Would you say that anyone who worked for free for a football club - maybe writing articles in a programme, commentating on matches or providing historical information is also being exploited then? I would say those individuals do it because they probably enjoy it, just the same way that some people like to gather statistical evidence on football matches.
 

Invipai

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It is exploitative...you're asking for a position to be filled in that you won't pay for. The fact that there may be people willing to take it on to get football experience doesn't make it less exploitative, it makes it more so.

Having to take part in monthly meetings, if you're qualified enough...it shoudn't be an unpaid position. The fact that they're looking for one candidate (it says person, not people) to take part in as much or as little as they'd like doesn't make sense either. If only hiring one person, they'd hire the one who has said they'd spend a lot of time on it.
 
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Would you say that anyone who worked for free for a football club - maybe writing articles in a programme, commentating on matches or providing historical information is also being exploited then? I would say those individuals do it because they probably enjoy it, just the same way that some people like to gather statistical evidence on football matches.
It just depends what their ultimate goal is. If they enjoy doing what they do and simply take pleasure in having an outlet for their talent and enthusiasm then that is fine - admirable even.

I just get upset if people looking for a longer term opportunity invest time and effort without any prospect of a return.

It is all about being open and honest and perhaps not having false expectations.

I am banging on because I used to get a lot of youngsters seeking work experience with my agency and I always felt that if I was getting commercial benefit from their efforts then I should pay them.
 

Les Beeavinu

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How is this any different to a bunch of unpaid volunteers going down to their local games and reporting on any talent they might see? That has happened since time immemorial, this is just a 21st century equivalent.
 

Simon C

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Would you say that anyone who worked for free for a football club - maybe writing articles in a programme, commentating on matches or providing historical information is also being exploited then? I would say those individuals do it because they probably enjoy it, just the same way that some people like to gather statistical evidence on football matches.
Those comparisons aren't equal. This is something you will do to get into the industry and advance your professional career. This is a widely talked about issue in the sports analytics community and the replies on Twitter and LinkedIN show this
 

Les Beeavinu

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I am banging on because I used to get a lot of youngsters seeking work experience with my agency and I always felt that if I was getting commercial benefit from their efforts then I should pay them.
I haven't seen any reference to youngsters.
 

jlove

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Is this just a bit of fake outrage? As Les points out, every match has people who volunteer, primarily to feel involved. If it gets someone out of their bedroom and off FIFA2020 and into the real world of human interaction where they can feel valued, then let them do it.
 

Les Beeavinu

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Those comparisons aren't equal. This is something you will do to get into the industry and advance your professional career. This is a widely talked about issue in the sports analytics community and the replies on Twitter and LinkedIN show this
As above, the use of volunteers has ALWAYS been part of a club's scouting approach.
 

JANORAK

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No different really to ‘actual scout’ scouts. Not all of them are paid. Sat next to Andy Scott once at Wycombe, and he confirmed he was between jobs at the time. He was still there though, keeping his notes and records up to date.
 
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No different really to ‘actual scout’ scouts. Not all of them are paid. Sat next to Andy Scott once at Wycombe, and he confirmed he was between jobs at the time. He was still there though, keeping his notes and records up to date.
Yes, if they were scouting for their own CPD, generally if scouting for a team they would at least receive mileage.
 

JCMcBee

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.... voluntary work prior to being waged is currently de rigueur in many sectors....nothing wrong here.
 

Banana

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.... voluntary work prior to being waged is currently de rigueur in many sectors....nothing wrong here.
The trend is actually the other way. Modern Slavery and all that. You will find it almost impossible to get an unpaid internship these days for instance.
 

Hullbee

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Worked unpaid at a Council for a month whilst at Uni and been continually exploited by them and the awful public ever since
 

JCMcBee

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The trend is actually the other way. Modern Slavery and all that. You will find it almost impossible to get an unpaid internship these days for instance.
....surprised at that......ner'mind..... would still argue getting a foot in the door is better than being left out in the cold.
 

Banana

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....surprised at that......ner'mind..... would still argue getting a foot in the door is better than being left out in the cold.

"Lord Holmes asked how a country which "slammed the door on slavery in the 19th Century" could allow people to work for no financial return.
Interns were "not owned by anyone" and could quit, said Lord Mitchell, but getting "no payments for their labours" could be equated with slavery."

Personally I agree, it's one thing to volunteer, but quite another for a profit-making entity in an attractive industry to advertise for unpaid positions. They are two different things IMHO.
 
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grutter

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I wonder would they pay for it if no-one 'volunteered'?
 

JCMcBee

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"Lord Holmes asked how a country which "slammed the door on slavery in the 19th Century" could allow people to work for no financial return.
Interns were "not owned by anyone" and could quit, said Lord Mitchell, but getting "no payments for their labours" could be equated with slavery."

Personally I agree, it's one thing to volunteer, but quite another for a profit-making entity in an attractive industry to advertise for unpaid positions. They are two different things IMHO.
...interesting...will suggest to my son in a few years time...he volunteer with Ernst&Young for a year.....i'll pay his wages.....job experience RIP.
 

readingbee

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When we had an Academy, scouting for youngsters ( apart from a number of free match tickets and some club clothing) was initially unpaid. Payment was only made when the boy signed I can’t remember if it was 14 or 16. Further payments made if they signed a full professional contract was signed then again first team contract and a big bonus if they eventually played for their country, however you still had to be employed by the club. Most of the scouts were fans of the club and like me happy to give up a few hours a week. With the full knowledge that the odds on getting anything was very slim. Maybe this isn’t much different apart from scouting via video.
 
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Surely if we believe this is a job worth doing then it’s worth having done well. It’s not a non-complex job that just anyone can do, it requires skill.

It is also not comparable IMO to programme contributors etc. Player trading makes up a huge % of our commercial success as a business. Those who contribute formally to this process should be fairly compensated.
 

jbee

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Not to mention that it threatens the livelihood of professional scouts who have a skill set that they rightly feel they should be able to claim a wage for. Reminds me of this about writers:
 

W13 Bee

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I’m not sure why this is any different to any other role at the club being unpaid. The role will add value to the club, will be filled by someone who is skilled and therefore should be paid.

The club knows that there are probably many skilled people that are willing to do it for free, who will be at the beginning of their career and would do it to get a leg up in their career (and are probably supported by parents). That doesn’t make it right - probably worse - as they are the ones that could do with the money.
 

TorbayBee

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This is a nonsense faux outrage thread. It’s voluntary, there is no coercion, the hours are not dictated. If you want to do it, do it. If not don’t. How do you think internships have worked for years?
 

Guildford Bee

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This is a nonsense faux outrage thread. It’s voluntary, there is no coercion, the hours are not dictated. If you want to do it, do it. If not don’t. How do you think internships have worked for years?
They don’t work like that now.
 

nocoat

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We use to have unpaid interns till about 2015 then we realised it was “not cool” and gave them a pro rata entry level salary. Fuxking ballache really as had to spend hours mentoring them and didn’t trust their work but what can you do when someone’s whinging about minimum wage :fishing:
 

Mulitinovic

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It is categorically a dick move. I deal with this in my industry (law) all the time, and yes there is the problem that it is a commercial entity seeking profit from free labour, but most importantly it is a block to social mobility as the opportunity to get into your industry is immediately removed - by non-participation in the "prove yourself" element - from the many, many people who would love to do it but need paid for their time. Any unpaid labour as a conduit to get into highly desirable specialist roles intrinsically favours those who can afford to take the time themselves or whose families can support them.
 

Simon C

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This is also not a BFC, FCM or a Benham clubs problem. It's all football clubs, sports organisations, private data companies who are doing or have done this recently and the subject of the specific online backlash here. Plus as Banana and nocoat point out there are equivalents in other industries, all pointing to the conclusion that this practise is becoming unacceptable
 

Vid

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It's a poorly written vacancy. Should have started "Volunteers required". Had I been unemployed with that skill set I would've been excited until the last paragraph. Then it would be go forth and multiply.
 

Mulitinovic

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The point remains - it’s personal choice, it’s not a pre-requisite to get paid employment, there is no coercion. Faux outrage
There's no outrage, just disappointment.

Talk me through the difference between "personal choice" if you have a significant disposable income and holiday leave to spare, versus personal choice if you're taking each and every hour available to make ends meet and pay the bills.

The one who can afford to do it gets a great gig on their CV, makes professional contacts and has the opportunity to ingratiate themself with the organisation hiring (FCM in this case). The other one doesn't get close.

If you want to answer with "it's faux outrage" again, tell me how this makes sure the best talent rather than the most affluent talent gets ahead in scouting.
 

bubb

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Multinovic makes a good case and I can’t disagree but what it comes down to for me is if you want someone’s services you should pay for it. Too many people and business want something for nothing. It’s how the rich stay rich.
 

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