Football Analytics Team 'defunct' (Merged Thread)

malagakid

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So it might be logical then. :)
Also Analysis in football is exploding. Benham could've been introduced to brilliant new people. Analytical systems in football is definitely the future.
So your theory doesn't sound logical at all imo.
 

Les Beeavinu

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Can't polish a turd Les. It it what it is mate. I take no pleasure
Ok, enjoy. I'll be hoping and expecting two wins minimum and looking forward to our third year in the Championship. :) We're off topic here though.
 

Les Beeavinu

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Also Analysis in football is exploding. Benham could've been introduced to brilliant new people. Analytical systems in football is definitely the future.
So your theory doesn't sound logical at all imo.
That's fine, in your opinion it doesn't sound logical. But it might be but lets go with your view instead - something was tried, didn't work and is being changed ahead of an important summer of recruitment. Benham has said a number of times that they will change things if not right - this may be an example of that. It might also be the death of the "stats, analystics, players signed by spreadsheet " b***ock*s oft repeated though - that'll spoil some people's fun I imagine.

Remember MB's comment in his Bessotted interview - the players signed by stats is the zombie they can't kill. Hopefully this is another step to trying to move away from that debate.
 

ruislip bee

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Hard to believe Benham has suddenly decided analytics doesn't work. Either he is not happy with exactly how it is being implemented and the role of this 'analytics team' or it is a cost cutting measure. Who can know for sure? I am not one who advocates a full return to 'traditional' methods as it is clear how much stats have helped us so far and also clear (to me at least) that the teams that best use statistics are likely to be the most successful in the future.

We have the best possible chairman to help us in this and I'm happy to just trust his judgement on this for now.
Sorry to burst you bubble but our Chairman knows F all about all this. I think you might mean our Owner who is someone completely different.
 

jlove

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I wasn't suggesting the analytics has been shut down and we're going back to the manager washing the kit, only that it is being refocused, based on what has been learned in the last year. I understand that most players value their personal stats, for example. Stats are a tool in the toolbox and are used by most clubs, the difference at BFC is that the owner and many of the management team know how they work. With that, refining their application is still a differentiator.
 

Les Beeavinu

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I wasn't suggesting the analytics has been shut down and we're going back to the manager washing the kit, only that it is being refocused, based on what has been learned in the last year. I understand that most players value their personal stats, for example. Stats are a tool in the toolbox and are used by most clubs, the difference at BFC is that the owner and many of the management team know how they work. With that, refining their application is still a differentiator.
No sensible club would ditch the use of stats. All I'm suggesting is that our approach may change to something more similar to most other clubs.
 

jlove

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I'd hope that, while the personnel numbers may be similar to most other clubs, I think we still ought to make better use of them due to our owner's knowledge.
 

jbee

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Sorry, but where's the proof that stats have helped us? Even on a basic level, wasn't the Head Coach to be informed by text message of player stats during a game so he can make significant substitutions? I haven't seen any evidence of progression using stats; please remind me with specific examples.
As I said, I think the issue is how you use stats and not whether you use them. With regard to day to day decisions and running of the team, it is impossible to know from the outside exactly how they are used. Where we know they have been helpful is with recruitment, bringing in guys like Gray, Moses, Jota etc. It's possible that new metrics were developed for recruitment this summer and MB was unhappy with the results, but this is speculation on my part.

Ultimately stats are just information derived from the real events that happen on the pitch. Examining stats thoroughly and with scientific discipline allows you to make judgements that avoid cognitive biases. They can also allow you to test your 'gut' decisions empirically. They are not some evil plot to reduce sport to numbers (I don't mean to imply that you personally think this, but it is the way some people talk about the subject).

Let's face it, we don't have many advantages that will help us compete in this league, our turnover is still the lowest of all 24 clubs. For that reason I just don't see us abandoning this side of our philosophy completely.
 

jbee

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Sorry to burst you bubble but our Chairman knows F all about all this. I think you might mean our Owner who is someone completely different.
I do indeed. My bubble has been reduced to a puddle.
 

lionel2011

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I remember seeing a link to ads placed by Smartodds for local data gatherers, can't remember the countries, so is it feasible that the (probably expensive) central department has been disbanded in favour of local (and probably much cheaper) data gathering with the same stats being collected. Therefore the use of stats has not been abandoned just the method of collection.
 

Houghton Bee

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I remember seeing a link to ads placed by Smartodds for local data gatherers, can't remember the countries, so is it feasible that the (probably expensive) central department has been disbanded in favour of local (and probably much cheaper) data gathering with the same stats being collected. Therefore the use of stats has not been abandoned just the method of collection.
They've done that for years. I remember looking at Smartodds websites recruitment page a few years back and seeing requests for people to watch Finnish Division 3 games or some such minor Scandinavian level.
 

Voice from the Braemar

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its a load of old bollards to me anyway.....couldnt give a flying ;) we need at least 6 points to stay up.....thats all the 'kin stats you need at this time of the season.....go out and get them managment/players or be failures for ever.......thanks :)
 

condorman

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Sounds like the Data Analytics team hasn't provided good value for money so we've axed that team (rather than our overall approach in using data to try to help judge players and their value alongside other more human valuations)
 

Les Beeavinu

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Back in the day, it was managers who would get sacked on the back of bad signings.
 

-superbees2k3-

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Sounds like the Data Analytics team hasn't provided good value for money so we've axed that team (rather than our overall approach in using data to try to help judge players and their value alongside other more human valuations)
This seems to be the long and short of it...
 

hanworthbee

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johann cruyff said based on data and stats he would have been let go at a young age
 

mhead bee

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....would have thought it made sense to let this chap go.....if as MB suggested the emphasis will be to bring in players from the UK and ireland in the future......maybe the manager has suggested that a return to a more traditional recruitment methods is in BFC's best interests.
He didn't say that though. He said he would look at potentially as an example 3 from the lower leagues as this worked really well for him, 3 on loan from prem clubs as this has worked well for him and then 3 from foreign countries.

I have read nothing on this thread that gives any clirity on anything other then maybe he is cutting back on the amount of reliance we had on stats but he is not ditching it.

One thing it means to me is that he is an innovator who takes risks, he will also stop and change direction if it isn't happening for him. He has said this from the start so it shouldn't really be a surprise to see him implement huge change as and when he wants to.
 

mhead bee

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Hope so. It's obviously tempting to look at our poor run of form over the last few months and ask: how has the analytics team added value? And then to conclude that it hasn't, and that furthermore FCM's experience this year is hardly supportive of the analytics approach , and then to reason that MB has reappraised its value, and then to think that the business model does not work. And then to think : where does that leave us? Very bad thoughts
Would FCM not totally disagree with that...Champions league and a victory over Man unt?

Its more tempting to look at the poor form over the past few months and see Tarks, Jota and Toums leaving added to the injury list to see why rather than a back room team who look at recruitment.

Maybe the lack of incoming players has been an issue though, more to it than we thought.
 

JCMcBee

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He didn't say that though. He said he would look at potentially as an example 3 from the lower leagues as this worked really well for him, 3 on loan from prem clubs as this has worked well for him and then 3 from foreign countries.

I have read nothing on this thread that gives any clirity on anything other then maybe he is cutting back on the amount of reliance we had on stats but he is not ditching it.

One thing it means to me is that he is an innovator who takes risks, he will also stop and change direction if it isn't happening for him. He has said this from the start so it shouldn't really be a surprise to see him implement huge change as and when he wants to.
Fair enough....don't disagree with any of that.....as long as Scotland and Ireland are included in the foreign category,which I have a feeling they just might.
 

HertfordBee

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No sensible club would ditch the use of stats. All I'm suggesting is that our approach may change to something more similar to most other clubs.
Which might mean using someone with a footballing background/pedigree in one of the senior roles. I've said this numerous times before but you can use the best analytics, stats, data, that's around and there's definitely a place for it, without doubt, but sometimes that phone call from Mills, McPartland, Warburton to an agent to see what's going on in the football world is worth its weight in gold. An agent getting a call from Phil Giles might not result in the same detailed discussion.
 

jlove

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While Mills was an agent himself, so well known for that, and McParland was a 'character', Warburton would have been more of an unknown when he was DoF. I'm sure "It's John Smith here from Matthew Benham's Brentford" is a guaranteed door opener.
 

Pauly Paul

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Which might mean using someone with a footballing background/pedigree in one of the senior roles. I've said this numerous times before but you can use the best analytics, stats, data, that's around and there's definitely a place for it, without doubt, but sometimes that phone call from Mills, McPartland, Warburton to an agent to see what's going on in the football world is worth its weight in gold. An agent getting a call from Phil Giles might not result in the same detailed discussion.
I wonder if Andrew Mills might be approached and PG goes back to head up things at Smartodds?
 

mhead bee

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Which might mean using someone with a footballing background/pedigree in one of the senior roles. I've said this numerous times before but you can use the best analytics, stats, data, that's around and there's definitely a place for it, without doubt, but sometimes that phone call from Mills, McPartland, Warburton to an agent to see what's going on in the football world is worth its weight in gold. An agent getting a call from Phil Giles might not result in the same detailed discussion.
We are doing all of that as well, that has been made abundantly clear. We have football people within the club, we have loans from Chelsea, Everton and Liverpool, you don't get much bigger than that.
 

mhead bee

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Fair enough....don't disagree with any of that.....as long as Scotland and Ireland are included in the foreign category,which I have a feeling they just might.
Dallas, Macca, Dougie and Judge all worked well. Not sure about scotland yet....sadly.
 

Full Metal Jacket

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Which might mean using someone with a footballing background/pedigree in one of the senior roles. I've said this numerous times before but you can use the best analytics, stats, data, that's around and there's definitely a place for it, without doubt, but sometimes that phone call from Mills, McPartland, Warburton to an agent to see what's going on in the football world is worth its weight in gold. An agent getting a call from Phil Giles might not result in the same detailed discussion.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. You can have the best stats and the best analysis but unless they're being interpreted by an experienced football man (someone who has played, coached and/or managed) then you're likely to come to the wrong conclusions. My feeling is that this is where we're going wrong with recruitment.

I suppose one difficulty might be that there are few people with good footballing pedigree who also happen to understand statistics?
 

Babbelfish

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Would FCM not totally disagree with that...Champions league and a victory over Man unt?

Its more tempting to look at the poor form over the past few months and see Tarks, Jota and Toums leaving added to the injury list to see why rather than a back room team who look at recruitment.

Maybe the lack of incoming players has been an issue though, more to it than we thought.
FCM's season by no means a disaster but their mid- table position this year must be a bit diasapponting after last year.
 
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They've done that for years. I remember looking at Smartodds websites recruitment page a few years back and seeing requests for people to watch Finnish Division 3 games or some such minor Scandinavian level.
Had a look on their site the other day, plenty of jobs on there on a self employed basis to watch many different leagues.
 

HertfordBee

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We are doing all of that as well, that has been made abundantly clear. We have football people within the club, we have loans from Chelsea, Everton and Liverpool, you don't get much bigger than that.
You're right if course about getting some loans in from big clubs but what I'm talking about is having a genuine football man with a football reputation who can ring an agent and say 'let's meet for lunch and just chat about football in general and what's going on with players.' A Frank McParland, Mark Warburton, dare I say a Steve Coppell could do that. Would a call from our current Sporting Directors be received in the same way? I'm not sure it would.
 

Lush55

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Any one thought that it might be a shuffle of employees?
Or.......MB wants someone more capable......who knows.....trouble is , first hint of change on here and everything is guessed to death and half the time it's wrong!!!!
 

jlove

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I think you've hit the nail on the head here. You can have the best stats and the best analysis but unless they're being interpreted by an experienced football man (someone who has played, coached and/or managed) then you're likely to come to the wrong conclusions. My feeling is that this is where we're going wrong with recruitment.

I suppose one difficulty might be that there are few people with good footballing pedigree who also happen to understand statistics?
Are you saying that Dean Smith and Richard O'Kelly have not played, coached and/or managed? That is a very strange assumption.
 

jlove

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I think it's more the case that Giles, Ankersen, Rowan etc, haven't.
So, you are saying that every person involved should have played, coached and/or managed and not just enough to provide their interpretation of stats as experienced football men? Is still think that is a strange assumption.

... and Ankersen has actually played, albeit less than one full senior match, before injury, after coming through the youth system, plus is a UEFA A-licensed coach. The idea that grizzled old pro's are the only people that know about the game is archaic; the number of successful players transitioning to any form of coaching or management is small, it's a different skill set. There's a few ex-England captains that are proof!
 

alexcavell

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While Mills was an agent himself, so well known for that, and McParland was a 'character', Warburton would have been more of an unknown when he was DoF.
Indeed, I seem to remember we struggled to bring in players at times during MW's first season as DoF, resulting in us turning to Clinton Morrison in our hour of need! Hopefully our current team are building contacts and we'll see the benefits over the next 12 months.
 

NorthamptonBee

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It's like trying to interpret a teenager's text message on here sometimes.
Really, what else could FMJ mean?lol You've just got a rolling agreement going on here, quoted a poster called Full Metal Jacket and then working out what FMJ is a puzzle?:D It's like shopping with your grandad on here sometimes.
 

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