Ivan Toney

Babbelfish

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Feel on shaky ground here, but should we be asking so much of Ivan defensively? That positional map on Sky just now showed him as much in our half as theirs.
 

GP200

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.............he is having to drop deeper and deeper for a sniff of a pass..............
 

CRitch87

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Had more touches at left back than Dom Thomspon
 

finsbury_bee

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Agree with the comments here, he is our only striker so we need to play him as one. It’s a double whammy to play him out of position as he’s less effective and we don’t have anyone else good enough to play up top.
 

hanworthbee

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He's got to he disappointed this season 2 goals from open play and 2 assists and rarely looks like scoring.id even say his transfer value has gone down since being in the top flight
 

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He's got to he disappointed this season 2 goals from open play and 2 assists and rarely looks like scoring.id even say his transfer value has gone down since being in the top flight
Zero service. Our wing backs and midfield aren't running off the ball enough to in return create gaps/space for Toney to exploit. Needs another striker partner who can both share the defensive/coming deep role.

His overall game has been class just isn't in the right place when he does receive the ball because he is doing so much work off it and linking play.

Stick a Ings type striker alongside him to both share the load and we'd get more out of him.

Or you rely on MB scoring which he hasn't been.
 

badgerbee

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Zero service. Our wing backs and midfield aren't running off the ball enough to in return create gaps/space for Toney to exploit. Needs another striker partner who can both share the defensive/coming deep role.

His overall game has been class just isn't in the right place when he does receive the ball because he is doing so much work off it and linking play.

Stick a Ings type striker alongside him to both share the load and we'd get more out of him.

Or you rely on MB scoring which he hasn't been.
So, not only does Sir Matthew have to fund us, now we're expecting him to knock the goals in for us too......
 

upnorthbee

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What I wanna know is why does our game plan change when we get IT back in the team?

We played ball to feet far more effectively against Leeds and Watford without him in the team, but seemed to do the long hoof forward again for him to knock it down to Wissa with him. IT is our best striker, and arguably our best player. Let's keep it on the deck and play football with him again, this might also mean going back to 433 so he's actually playing upfront.

Honestly, might as well experiment v City and put him up top with Canos and Wissa supplying service from the wings.
 

brentfordfc4ever

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We look less of an attacking threat with Toney on the pitch...... very weird.

He's so bloody good it's unreal. If he is going to score then he needs two wingers either side crossing the ball into him all game. Nearly all his goals are scored in the last 10 yards.

We have 20 points, so something is working.

Quite a strange situation really.
 

SH

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We look less of an attacking threat with Toney on the pitch...... very weird.

‘Bad Harry Kane’ Syndrome: if he drops too wide or deep without others running off him/into the space, then there’s little threat. The heat map on Sky contrasting his positions last night with Maupay’s focus on being in and around the box was interesting (and I know it’s not comparing exact like with like).

Raya and Ajer created more space and pace going forward for the front two, but that’s gone for the time being. We need one of the midfielders to drive into the gaps. It’s where JDS would be in his element.

Hopefully Wissa can get back up to speed and/or we supplement new wing backs to add threat down the flanks. Just have to get through this spell as best we can relative to the bottom five.
 

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Ivan Toney's name fits in very well with Handel's Hallelujah Chorus I discovered on Saturday.
 

RAF_Patto

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I do think its time to go back to 4-3-3, if we do I can see Ivan getting a lot more chances and touches in the oppo box.

He's got the ability to keep us up this season, but we really need to help him out and make him the focal point of the team.
 

sonofabee

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He relies on service and gets very little. As well of course on all the defensive work he’s been tasked to do.
We have no wide attacking players and therefore rely on Ajer and Rico to get forward and put crosses in, neither are playing.
Shandon occasionally runs past the two forwards but not often enough and as a result we have no attacking threat from midfield.
The upshot is we now rely on a relatively long ball game, hoping Toney will win the first ball and play in Bryan who isn’t a great finisher. We need to have other options and increase our attacking threat
 

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We have no wide attacking players and therefore rely on Ajer and Rico to get forward and put crosses in, neither are playing.
Shandon occasionally runs past the two forwards but not often enough and as a result we have no attacking threat from midfield.
The upshot is we now rely on a relatively long ball game, hoping Toney will win the first ball and play in Bryan who isn’t a great finisher. We need to have other options and increase our attacking threat
Would any of us trust our wives up top?
 

shouldbee

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What I wanna know is why does our game plan change when we get IT back in the team?

We played ball to feet far more effectively against Leeds and Watford without him in the team, but seemed to do the long hoof forward again for him to knock it down to Wissa with him. IT is our best striker, and arguably our best player. Let's keep it on the deck and play football with him again, this might also mean going back to 433 so he's actually playing upfront.

Honestly, might as well experiment v City and put him up top with Canos and Wissa supplying service from the wings.
We played some good stuff vs Watford, stayed calm, kept the ball on the deck and it paid off. Long ball to Toney is a waste of time and it's not going to work against Man City defenders.
 

Downbeat Bee

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He's got to he disappointed this season 2 goals from open play and 2 assists and rarely looks like scoring.id even say his transfer value has gone down since being in the top flight

There have been positives in terms of his play this season but I agree his stock may well have fallen (which in part is unfair).
 

beebopalula

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He gets little if any service.IMO Thomas needs to look at alternatives. Either 3-4-3 or 4-3-3.As things stand at the mo we are predictable and going nowhere fast. Trouble is Thomas doesnt like changes. I don't expect anything from Man City game but if we lose to Villa we will be looking over our shoulder . The return of Ajer will be massive for us and we have to get in an oven ready RWB , a mid and a striker at the very least in january or we will be in difficulties.
 

jlove

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I'm not really sure that whacking crosses in to Toney, in itself, will make the slightest difference – it would be very predictable and the typical Premier League central defenders will eat them up and spit them out. Goals seem most often to come from set pieces and/or quick and unexpected actions.

Whatever formation we go with, the number 1 priority is a strong and stable defence, that's the current problem – that defence must be strong against width (so not Thompson or Canós) and quick to react to balls threaded through centrally to quick runners, more like Ajer. Currently it takes an age to get the ball forward because the players that can do that are either unavailable (Henry, Raya, Ayer) or not on the books (a RWB).

To make Toney effective, we need the ability to get wide but, more often, the ability to get quick balls into the channels and react to them... then to get players around him, either to pick up lay-offs and second-balls or benefit from the distraction his presence causes. That's only going to happen (assuming we have the players) if all the other players aren't firefighting in our own half.
 

Gee Bee

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You can only give someone service if you have the ball. Premier League was always going to be having less of the ball and leading to fewer chances. Winning 2nd balls and turning round possession is key, we did this well initially but with a much stronger squad. During this time we squandered loads of chances including Toney. We really need Some of our injured players back soon and add a couple of extras in January. This meaning, I’m sure will lead to Toney getting more chances. The sooner we get to 36 points the better at which point we could really try a few new things. But ultimately injuries have hampered Toney most.
 

Leonardo

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He needs better service from his regular partner Mbeumo. Whether Wissa can support him better in this respect will be interesting. But yes the biggest problem at the moment is the absence of Raya with his quick accurate distribution. Fernandez is decent but in a Daniels type of way and needs to be quicker
 

BuzzingBee95

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You can only give someone service if you have the ball. Premier League was always going to be having less of the ball and leading to fewer chances. Winning 2nd balls and turning round possession is key, we did this well initially but with a much stronger squad. During this time we squandered loads of chances including Toney. We really need Some of our injured players back soon and add a couple of extras in January. This meaning, I’m sure will lead to Toney getting more chances. The sooner we get to 36 points the better at which point we could really try a few new things. But ultimately injuries have hampered Toney most.
100% agree. Last season, we dominated possession, which naturally leads to more goals and penalties awarded. Still feel the team is adapting to having to maximise their use of the ball. Think that’s why we’re seeing a lot of long balls forward as opposed to our more common intricate passing moves.

It says something that In the last few games, you could argue we look better without Ivan. He has a good relationship with Bryan, however I don’t think either looks completely at ease in the current system. Perhaps city is a chance to try something new
 

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I haven't got the stats to hand, but I'm fairly sure that in the 2nd half of last season, Ivan scored very few goals from open play. Defenders had sussed that we were playing everything to him, so marked him out of games. This isn't so much of a problem if there is another attacking outlet like Bryan, but we are in danger of becoming a bit one dimensional again.

As others say, he won't score without service, but it can be a vicious circle, as he won't get service if he's too deep.

He is our best offensive weapon and we need to make more of these qualities, not his defensive ones, imo.
 
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I haven't got the stats to hand, but I'm fairly sure that in the 2nd half of last season, Ivan scored very few goals from open play.
9 from open play from match 24 to match 46.
 

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He needs service desperately and with very little creativity in the team he gets almost none. Would love to see Canos next to him, but don't think him and Bryan work well together. Brilliant player but has to drop deep to get the ball. A creative midfielder in January or a possible Dasilva return would, in my opinion allows Jensen to shine knowing he has someone to drive at the opposition and allowing him the freedom to make the killer passes
 

badgerbee

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Having just watched highlights. Could IT have done better with his header for the chance cleared off the line?
Difficult one, but looked like he mistimed his jump a bit (admittedly he was under pressure (fouled) by Ake.....)
 

Gee Bee

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If he gets service as he needs, he can bang in 20 plus a season in the Prem; I have no doubt of that.
Getting service at this level is the difficult part as you get less possession and you are relying on breaks from transitions, which is why Mbeumo gets more chances, often assisted by Ivan. His all round play has been very good though and if he finishes with 8 to 10 goals that'll be pretty norm for a lower half Premier team.
 

BFC1997

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Very harsh to say given how well he performed in general but it looks like he mistimed his header for the golden chance just before they scored.
 

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3 from open play in the last 15 games of last season. Perhaps more significantly, 4 from open play in the 26 league games since we switched to 3-5-2 - I'd say his role has changed and goals are no longer the best indicator of his contribution
That's a big problem for us now though, who gets the goals now? There isn't reslly another finisher available like him, so with his role changing (he seems to be playing like Kane does for England), question is, who is meant to score our goals now? Hopefully in January we get someone to wither partner or assist him and hopefully he can get double figures for goals
 

AB

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That's a big problem for us now though, who gets the goals now? There isn't reslly another finisher available like him, so with his role changing (he seems to be playing like Kane does for England), question is, who is meant to score our goals now? Hopefully in January we get someone to wither partner or assist him and hopefully he can get double figures for goals
We’ve got quite a lot of goals from around the team.
 

RAF_Patto

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That's a big problem for us now though, who gets the goals now? There isn't reslly another finisher available like him, so with his role changing (he seems to be playing like Kane does for England), question is, who is meant to score our goals now? Hopefully in January we get someone to wither partner or assist him and hopefully he can get double figures for goals
I think Mbuemo the Postman is the one meant to deliver the higher goal returns in our current set up.
 

AB

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Toney is a nightmare all over the pitch. Players hate playing against him. Goals are always the questioned when a striker isn’t scoring them. He’s a monster.
There’s something about the play in the PL this season which has seen the runaway top three scoring for fun without an out and out striker. Arsenal in 4th are doing fine while binning off Aubameyang. West Ham are far from reliant on Antonio. Kane’s only just started scoring for Spurs. Ronaldo isn’t saving Man U and Vardy’s not doing it for Leicester despite both scoring well. At the other end of the table, Watford have King and Dennis yet are in trouble.

Well-balanced teams are creating and scoring from a lot of positions and players other than striker. We’ve done very creditably in that with ten different scorers at BCS. I think there’ll be more goals for Ivan and Bryan later in the season when we’re back to full strength but our results against Leeds and Watford without Toney are almost more important than whether Ivan has been scoring. And his overall contribution is immense. He does much more for us than Ronaldo does for ManU.
 

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You know we’re living the dream when an actual Brentford player is being considered as part of this conversation.

 
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