Ivan Toney

belvederebee

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I rewatched the match and there is something putting Ivan off his game. He didn’t put himself about anywhere near as much as normal and was reasonably subdued when we scored when is usually at the centre of things. My guess is there has been a bid for him , which is not saying I think he will be sold or wanted to be , but it is distracting him. I also noticed how Thomas was with him afterwards. Sorry just saying what I thinking but I have had a few celebratory glasses so hopefully?
In his present form can’t see him being an attractive prospect elsewhere.
 

Isleworth_Bee

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The main thing other then his fitness issues is that he is way too deep!!!!!!! It’s so frustrating to watch. The low block is really affecting him, our wing backs are no where near him and he’s yet to build a real understanding with Wissa like he has with Bryan. He needs bodies around him and he needs to be in the box. How many shots has he had on target in his last 3-4 games?!
 

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In his present form can’t see him being an attractive prospect elsewhere.

To be fair any issue with his present form would be more to do with our system of play than it would be about his performances. He is doing everything asked of him, the fact he isn't in the box or getting opportunities to score to the same extent as before isn't really his fault in my opinion.
 

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....all footballers go through difficult patches.....all strikers have barren spells.....the big lad is no different.....cream always rises....Ivan will rise again.
Exactly this. Every striker has a dry spell, I'm sure Ivan and the coaching team have the brains to see it through and come out the other side even better
 

aawharris

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I think he has really missed Mbeumo last couple of games, he knows how quick he is and will chase while Toney can pick up the good positions.
Wissa seems more of a conventional striker that wants similar positions to Toney, meaning he has to try different things
 

AB

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I think he has really missed Mbeumo last couple of games, he knows how quick he is and will chase while Toney can pick up the good positions.
Wissa seems more of a conventional striker that wants similar positions to Toney, meaning he has to try different things
Finding a way to play all three would be brilliant because of how complementary their skills are.
 

Gazza Bee

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Finding a way to play all three would be brilliant because of how complementary their skills are.
The only way I can see to do that s 3-4-1-2 with Wissa in behind Toney and Mbuemo but that then removes AM so I am not sure we will see all 3 in the starting line-up this season
 

Scobee

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Finding a way to play all three would be brilliant because of how complementary their skills are.
I think if Nørgaard and Janelt are fit and bossing the centre of the pitch, one of the three can drop deep and get on the ball, I see no reason why we can't
 
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brentfordfc4ever

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The team are sitting deep, which means he has to come deep to obtain the ball. Until we find a way to play Norgaard and Janelt on their own in the centre, the quicker will be back to the old bees.

This will take time and the right personnel
 

kendo

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I imagine it’s covid after effects more than anything else TBH
 

AB

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The only way I can see to do that s 3-4-1-2 with Wissa in behind Toney and Mbuemo but that then removes AM so I am not sure we will see all 3 in the starting line-up this season
Or as I suggested earlier, with Toney as the false 9. I think he’s better suited to that than Wissa because he’s got the all round game to fight the midfield battles. Ivan already looks to charge forward from deep after tussling for the ball so it would be natural. It’s a question of whether we can be brave enough to rely just on CN plus one to hold central midfield. If we can, I think there’ll be space for the front three because both Bryan and Yoane are a handful and if you man mark them you’re going to let Ivan burst through.

Maybe something we’ll see with the full team in the final half dozen games. Terrifying front three against open teams, front two with JDS against pressing teams.
 

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Or as I suggested earlier, with Toney as the false 9. I think he’s better suited to that than Wissa because he’s got the all round game to fight the midfield battles. Ivan already looks to charge forward from deep after tussling for the ball so it would be natural. It’s a question of whether we can be brave enough to rely just on CN plus one to hold central midfield. If we can, I think there’ll be space for the front three because both Bryan and Yoane are a handful and if you man mark them you’re going to let Ivan burst through.

Maybe something we’ll see with the full team in the final half dozen games. Terrifying front three against open teams, front two with JDS against pressing teams.
Would be nice as it would mean we are safe :)
 
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AB

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Would be nice as it would mean we are safe :)
We’ll be safe. Southampton, Everton and Leeds as a final three fixtures to turn on the style and show we mean to be aiming up the table next season would be the ideal finish.
 

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Ivan is our best finisher there no point having him 50 yards from goal battling for scraps we need him in the box.
It is time we went braver with a front 3 we don't need a back 5 and 2 defensive midfielders.
A front 3 of Bryan and yoanne and Ivan will rip this division apart and a midfield 2 of norgaard and Janelt will out battle any in this division so 3-4-3.
But can't see this happening as Thomas seems to be sticking with a 5-3-2.
 

Deanb

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Ivan is our best finisher there no point having him 50 yards from goal battling for scraps we need him in the box.
It is time we went braver with a front 3 we don't need a back 5 and 2 defensive midfielders.
A front 3 of Bryan and yoanne and Ivan will rip this division apart and a midfield 2 of norgaard and Janelt will out battle any in this division so 3-4-3.
But can't see this happening as Thomas seems to be sticking with a 5-3-2.
Thomas did Say he was about to go with a front 3 when wissa got his injury..
 

Mr Cynical

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I think if Nørgaard and Janelt are fit and bossing the centre of the pitch, one of the three can drop deep and get on the ball, I see no reason why we can't
I don't see 2 midfielders bossing anything at this level I'm afraid.
 

jlove

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There seems to be little point in changing our formation and the personnel around it to facilitate the possibility of Ivan scoring more goals.

He's our highest-rated player, with most Goals and Assists; second highest Shot per Game (to Bryan) second highest Key Passes (to the great Mathias Jensen!); most fouled (by a long way). All this when we've 12 other goalscorers.

It seems a high risk idea to me – let the opposition worry about him and let the other players chip in with the goals.
 

AB

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Ivan is our best finisher there no point having him 50 yards from goal battling for scraps we need him in the box.
It is time we went braver with a front 3 we don't need a back 5 and 2 defensive midfielders.
A front 3 of Bryan and yoanne and Ivan will rip this division apart and a midfield 2 of norgaard and Janelt will out battle any in this division so 3-4-3.
But can't see this happening as Thomas seems to be sticking with a 5-3-2.
If you want us to be Newcastle or Watford, fine. In the real world of wanting to be a team that is competitive and doesn’t get relegated while giving Ivan 15 goals and the team nevertheless a -40 goal difference, TF’s probably got it right so far. When everyone was fit early season we could have moved towards a 343 like that but we didn’t all stay fit. Next season with a bit more strength in depth we can go that way.
 
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Or as I suggested earlier, with Toney as the false 9. I think he’s better suited to that than Wissa because he’s got the all round game to fight the midfield battles. Ivan already looks to charge forward from deep after tussling for the ball so it would be natural. It’s a question of whether we can be brave enough to rely just on CN plus one to hold central midfield. If we can, I think there’ll be space for the front three because both Bryan and Yoane are a handful and if you man mark them you’re going to let Ivan burst through.

Maybe something we’ll see with the full team in the final half dozen games. Terrifying front three against open teams, front two with JDS against pressing teams.
I think the idea of a terrifying top thred or top two isn’t the key. Our best displays is when players rotate, and I think all our front players (including midfielders) should terrify. All our players have shown they can rotate, and all of them need to be able to carry the ball forward, with quick release when required. Ivan seems to be least able to carry the ball currently, and maybe (as others have suggested) because he’s trying to hard. Bryan got his mojo back last season when he relearnt to accelerate quickly when receiving the ball. Ivan needs to be coaxed to do the same.
 

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If you want us to be Newcastle or Watford, fine. In the real world of wanting to be a team that is competitive and doesn’t get relegated while giving Ivan 15 goals and the team nevertheless a -40 goal difference, TF’s probably got it right so far. When everyone was fit early season we could have moved towards a 343 like that but we didn’t all stay fit. Next season with a bit more strength in depth we can go that way.and be like when we played with bmw
Swapping 1 attacking midfield a position we have struggled with to a attacking wide position would make us nothing like them teams you mention.We are far superior and would allow our best finisher to get into positions to score and be like when we played with bmw .
And obviously the 2 wide men will still filter back and defend when needed creating 5-41 so nice and compact but a fluid 3-4-3 when attacking.
 

AB

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I think the idea of a terrifying top thred or top two isn’t the key. Our best displays is when players rotate, and I think all our front players (including midfielders) should terrify. All our players have shown they can rotate, and all of them need to be able to carry the ball forward, with quick release when required. Ivan seems to be least able to carry the ball currently, and maybe (as others have suggested) because he’s trying to hard. Bryan got his mojo back last season when he relearnt to accelerate quickly when receiving the ball. Ivan needs to be coaxed to do the same.
I think the issue with Ivan carrying the ball is his close control with ball at feet is a bit bobbly (and he’s good with that as it is unpredictable- watch his run for Mbeumo’s goal at Molyneux). Maybe he’s overtrying but I think it is more that he’s quite a momentum based player and his strength is knocking the ball down to another and then going forward to receive or to take a shot himself from his bringing the ball down. Even last season he mainly didn’t run with the ball but when he did it was against much less adept defenders. Not to say he can’t- against Liverpool at 3-3 he was able to do it with the space afforded by being one on one against VVD and in those circumstances he needed an absolutely perfect challenge from probably the world’s best CB to dispossess him. But with more defenders around restricting space it is harder for him.
 

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I think his bout of Covid has taken it's toll on Ivan more than we think and perhaps he thinks, He's never one to shirk and hide, and he loves playing, You can tell by his attitude when out on the pitch, Yesterday was his worst performance for us since he joined, He didn't look right or comfortable at all, You tell he was struggling and never really got going, He won't like it, But perhaps give him a rest against Stoke to fully recharge his batteries, A good cup run is all well and good, But with our small list of fit players available we must now be concentrating on survival in the Premier League, After all we have taken so long to get back to the top flight we need to stay there, The FA Cup comes round every year regardless of what Division we are in.
 

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He was having a bit of a heart to heart with Thomas after the game. Thomas was clearly being supportive and reassuring, but Ivan was not happy - a surprising thing to see after a win and a little concerning.

I don't think it's covid after effects - I wouldn't expect him to be picked if it was. My initial thought was he was unhappy with how or where he had been asked to play. Then again, someone on here said they'd seen him chucking his guts up earlier. Whatever the reason, it was obvious it was a poor game and he wasn't happy.

Either way, we need this man fit, motivated and confident and that means getting him involved in the box.
 

belvederebee

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I think his bout of Covid has taken it's toll on Ivan more than we think and perhaps he thinks, He's never one to shirk and hide, and he loves playing, You can tell by his attitude when out on the pitch, Yesterday was his worst performance for us since he joined, He didn't look right or comfortable at all, You tell he was struggling and never really got going, He won't like it, But perhaps give him a rest against Stoke to fully recharge his batteries, A good cup run is all well and good, But with our small list of fit players available we must now be concentrating on survival in the Premier League, After all we have taken so long to get back to the top flight we need to stay there, The FA Cup comes round every year regardless of what Division we are in.
Stoke? Port Vale.
 

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....mabye just me....but I see IT as having similarities in his style of play as a certain striker at Spurs....who also recently went through a barren patch.
 

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....mabye just me....but I see IT as having similarities in his style of play as a certain striker at Spurs....who also recently went through a barren patch.
Agree, you also have to take in it is his first season in the PL. After last season expectations are running high but he is also developing like many of the younger players. He is a smart individual an am certain he will come good.
 

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Toney has been amazing at his team work ethic, but also completely bereft of support. He’s in places where he just shouldn’t be
We need to start playing 3-4-3
Henry & Roerslev on the right left mid positions
Wissa & Mbuemo on the wing positions
Toney in the middle

That is something new & a foundation we need to try ASAP
 

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Toney has been amazing at his team work ethic, but also completely bereft of support. He’s in places where he just shouldn’t be
We need to start playing 3-4-3
Henry & Roerslev on the right left mid positions
Wissa & Mbuemo on the wing positions
Toney in the middle

That is something new & a foundation we need to try ASA
We all want/need him to do well, but he couldn't control a ball today. He had no pace against Villa last week. Something's not right with him and we need him on his game or the team has no focal point with the way we are presently set up.
 

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Toney has been amazing at his team work ethic, but also completely bereft of support. He’s in places where he just shouldn’t be
We need to start playing 3-4-3
Henry & Roerslev on the right left mid positions
Wissa & Mbuemo on the wing positions
Toney in the middle

That is something new & a foundation we need to try ASAP
Would like that - we so miss Henry though
 

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We rightly pride ourselves as a club at getting the best out of most of our players - our coaches/data see things others don't.

Well this is one of those rare cases where a player has gone backwards - we don't seem to be doing much at all in the set up of the team to play to his strengths. And it's showing. The writing was on the wall before tonight. Two poor PL performances in a row where he has looked frustrated. He hasn't looked dangerous in the box for quite a while now. I'm still concerned how he came off at the end of the Villa victory, looking frustrated and talking to Thomas.
 

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Awful performance. That’s two games in a row he deserved to be hooked.
 

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