Ivan Toney

james121bees

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Toney is amazing we’re so lucky to have him.
We’re shooting ourselves in the foot with the set up he’s playing in. We can always say there must be stuff behind the scenes for players to be given the opportunities there given. But na I’m not buying that we can easily switch it up to fulfil our best potential even starting players like Bidstrup over Jensen (or substitute) also Steven’s over canos at Lwb.
We’re in an amazing moment in time it’s no toys thrown out of the pram from me but from what I’ve seen Bidstrup & Steven’s should be more involved we’ve got nothing to lose & they’re performing better than some of the recycled options we have
Just my thoughts though
 

Bangor Bee

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I imagine it’s covid after effects more than anything else TBH
I agree: for all that people tend to scoff, it could be this. I heard a coach say in an interview that even in the absence of symptoms, some players come back at well below previous performance levels.
 

maddogging

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We have a huge problem with him as it feels like forever since he has had an impact on the game. Not blaming him entirely as the job we are asking him to do is f***ing bizarre.
I did mention to friends last week I wonder when we see a Wissa/Mbeumo starting two, more mobile, can run the channels etc
 

condorman

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We have a huge problem with him as it feels like forever since he has had an impact on the game. Not blaming him entirely as the job we are asking him to do is f***ing bizarre.
I did mention to friends last week I wonder when we see a Wissa/Mbeumo starting two, more mobile, can run the channels etc
Toney was alright against Citeh but poor tonight. Don’t know whether he has any Covid issues, hope not and just a poor evening (among others)

not sure Wissa controlled the ball once tonight so not rushing to stick him into the team tbh
 

BFC1997

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Against stronger teams where we defend deep for large periods he is excellent as he gets on the end of long balls, wins free kicks, and gives us height from defensive set pieces. He will be vital vs Liverpool.

However when we are trying to match teams like vs Southampton and get in behind them his lack of technical ability and lack of pace in behind makes us a little bit one-dimensional in this current 3-5-2. In these types of games (if we are to stick with him and get the best out of him) we need to play with proper wingers (which we don’t really have currently) and get more crosses into the box.
 

Bridge Bee

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Must be long covid. Not looking like a premier league striker at the moment.
 

red_and_white

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My opinion is that he hasn’t had a look in since Raya got crocked . There’s a question whether correlation = causation there perhaps.

i also think there was a window to play 4-3-3 in the Norwich , Burnley Newcastle run. I think he’s done well to not show signs of frustration myself. Proper team player
 

SH

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My opinion is that he hasn’t had a look in since Raya got crocked . There’s a question whether correlation = causation there perhaps.

Causation for me. With Raya at the back, the whole team plays 10 yards higher up the pitch… which makes it a completely different dynamic for Ivan and Bryan. Raya’s our biggest miss by far and with Rico out too, Ivan’s miles away from the centre forward danger zone. Hopefully only temporarily ☺️
 

Leicester Bee

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My opinion is that he hasn’t had a look in since Raya got crocked .
Raya makes such a difference to the way we play. Gives confidence to our defence, and sets up attacks with his passing.

The key to Raya is that his passing bypasses the high press and if we have numbers pressing forward because they know Raya can pass 40 yards, then we are more likely to press forward and allow the attackers to influence the game more.

Fernandez, as much as he might have potential, has around 1% of the passing ability of Raya, and barely can kick the ball over the halfway line in any case. So Toney (and our attack in general) is suffering whilst Raya is out of the team.
 

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Ivan was as poor as I've seen him tonight and his form has been patchy of late. Nothing either stuck with the ball at his feet or his lay off's tonight. Got beaten at the near post by Bednarek for the first Saints goal. Fully appreciate that the role he has been asked to play this year is difficult but he really cut a forlorn and tired figure tonight. Had one sight of goal at the end but Forster clawed it away. Not sure what the solution is to get him out of his current malaise.
 

bee good

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I agree with people saying something nots right. Weve seen how he can play (Arsenal, Wolves, Liverpool) and its just not happening at the moment.

Possible causes:
Carrying an injury
Got fed up with his role
Head turned
Long covid
Been 'found out' at a higher level
Been played in the wrong position
Been worn down by the constant physical battling and needs a rest

Or just a dip in form that all strikers get at some point.
 

Balders Bee

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I agree with people saying something nots right. Weve seen how he can play (Arsenal, Wolves, Liverpool) and its just not happening at the moment.

Possible causes:
Carrying an injury
Got fed up with his role
Head turned
Long covid
Been 'found out' at a higher level
Been played in the wrong position
Been worn down by the constant physical battling and needs a rest

Or just a dip in form that all strikers get at some point.
Possibly any combination of all, some or none of those. Whatever he's got to gather his thoughts, sort himself and for me show us the undoubted class he has. He was a shadow of what he can be this evening.
 

Lewbeelou

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I agree with people saying something nots right. Weve seen how he can play (Arsenal, Wolves, Liverpool) and its just not happening at the moment.

Possible causes:
Carrying an injury
Got fed up with his role
Head turned
Long covid
Been 'found out' at a higher level
Been played in the wrong position
Been worn down by the constant physical battling and needs a rest

Or just a dip in form that all strikers get at some point.
Good post. I think it’s injury or after effects of COVID, certainly not that he’s been found out at this level, as he’s been magnificent at times this season, unplayable in spells against some of the best defences in Europe. But something is wrong, that was a seriously poor performance tonight, was only rivalled by sergi as our most ineffective player. Surprised he played the whole game.
 

upnorthbee

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Hmm he has unlimited credit in the bank with Brentford IMO after last season.

One thing I would say tho is a few people have said he's getting no service..... well every serviced ball that was played to him last night he miss-controlled. I think that would change if he scored a goal or two, but that doesn't look likely at this point.
 

LboroBee

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Like others have said he’s probably got credit in the bank with fans and with management.
A bad day for all, it happens, concerning when there’s only 38 games but la vie.

But after being there yesterday, at least 4 times he was somewhat responsible for the quickness of opposition attacks - by insisting on trying to control or knock on the ball by doing a daft “Morecambe & Wise” back heel flick.
None of which worked.
Plus he’s the last line of attack, who was he flicking it onto? Not himself or even Usain Bolt would be able to pop past their defence if those flicks worked.
It looked like he was doing the dance to Bring Me Sunshine.
 

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At some point he will have to be dropped or we switch formation to 4-3-3 as it clearly isn't working right now and he is a shadow of last seasons player.
 

brentfordfc4ever

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As others have said, something isn't quite right. Doesn't strike me as the low confidence type, although he must be an extremely frustrated man right now.

I can't remember the last time he looked like scoring tbh. How long can that continue? The massive problem now is that all the great work off the ball has slowly reduced too.

Id love to know how many times he has made the keeper make a save this this season, i can't imagine it's high!

Come in Ivan, please come back.

Much love
 

taxi driver

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He played the 2nd half like a man who didn't want to miss playing at Anfield 😡
 

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Agree, he cuts a hugely frustrated figure atm. It must be weighing heavily that he's not scoring but what service does he get? He's constantly having to play too deep but even his hold up play and defensive work was poor yesterday. Worrying. He deserves to be up front in a team with enough depth to bring in players that can give him service if key members (JDS) are out.
 

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He looks very frustrated to me. Sending off waiting to happen.
He’d been on a steady upward trajectory since leaving Newcastle and now finds himself in a division where for the first time in ages he’s not head and shoulders above the defenders he’s playing against and with a job description that has changed immeasurably from last season.

Agree he looks very frustrated. I don’t think dropping him is the answer but at the same time don’t think he should be guaranteed 90 mins if he’s one of the least effective players on the pitch
 

shouldbee

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At some point he will have to be dropped or we switch formation to 4-3-3 as it clearly isn't working right now and he is a shadow of last seasons player.
It's a massive difference from the Championship to the PL and he hasn't (so far) stepped up ?
 

Gazza Bee

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It's a massive difference from the Championship to the PL and he hasn't (so far) stepped up ?
In fairness we are not playing the same style this season and it isn't playing to his strengths so I would say we should tweak things a bit a see if that helps - if he continues to struggle then nobody is undroppable. All this stuff about credit in the bank doesn't wash with me - if we get relegated (unlikely but still possible) any amount of credit doesn't help us in the Championship.
 

Mr Cynical

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Doesn’t look fit or even remotely sharp. Was all over the place yesterday. Not sure what’s going on. Was surprised he stayed on the pitch for the full 90
 

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I think the root of the problem is the formation we're playing. It was a necessary change, last season, but the more this season progresses, it is proving to be less effective as other teams work out a way to stop it (which isn't difficult for the best sides). From Ivan's personal perspective, I suspect it's a case of the frustration starting to snowball. I also think other teams are starting to exploit the gaps behind our wing backs more and more, to take advantage of the lack of pace in our back 3. Personally, I think we need to change the formation, but I'm not sure how, given our current (fit) squad.
 
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I think the root of the problem is the formation we're playing. It was a necessary change, last season, but the more this season progresses, it is proving to be less effective as other teams work out a way to stop it (which isn't difficult for the best sides). From Ivan's personal perspective, I suspect it's a case of the frustration starting to snowball. I also think other teams are starting to exploit the gaps behind our wing backs more and more, to take advantage of the lack of pace in our back 3. Personally, I think we need to change the formation, but I'm not sure how, given our current (fit) squad.
Great piece in the Times today, where Hassenhutl is quoted as saying that each season he has to come up with new solutions (after his best players get sold) and that you cannot afford to be one dimensional in this league or you will suffer badly.
 

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Being the poster boy for Brentfords first season in the Prem has piled more pressure on Ivans shoulders than anyone else at the club. At the moment can't think of anyone who's playing at the top of their form except maybe Rico and Bryan. Starting to score goals from outside the area as Yoane and Bryan have done recently will help relieve that pressure as will a big signing this window. In the meantime maybe mixing up trying the first time flicks with some less high risk passing might help. A collective arm round the big mans shoulders.
 

jlove

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I think the root of the problem is the formation we're playing. It was a necessary change, last season, but the more this season progresses, it is proving to be less effective as other teams work out a way to stop it (which isn't difficult for the best sides). From Ivan's personal perspective, I suspect it's a case of the frustration starting to snowball. I also think other teams are starting to exploit the gaps behind our wing backs more and more, to take advantage of the lack of pace in our back 3. Personally, I think we need to change the formation, but I'm not sure how, given our current (fit) squad.
We can't change formation to accommodate one player, that would cause chaos elsewhere. The root of the 'problem' is that we're playing against Premier League defenders who are able to manage Toney very easily. There's few PL teams that play with a goal-getting centre froward and even fewer that do it successfully. Our goal spread this season shows that all the players have some responsibility to get goals and Ivan's job is partly to move defenders about to create the space for others, it's not just about one player in one role. Vitaly showed last night that midfielders getting into scoring positions is vital and we're certainly missing Dasilva and need to strengthen there.
 

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IMO we need to change formation. Whether it be 3-4-3 or 4-3-3 is Thomas's choice but 3-5-2 isn't working. It's too long ball, no service from wide positions, we are asking Sergi to play out of position and Toney is isolated. We should get Wissa on the pitch in a front three because he's a threat and probably our best finisher.IMO we are at one of those change is needed situations like when we ditched 4-3-3. Do it Thomas and why not at Liverpoool ? I don't expect us to get points there but I'm absolutely certain we won't if we continue with the same tactics.
 

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We can't change formation to accommodate one player, that would cause chaos elsewhere. The root of the 'problem' is that we're playing against Premier League defenders who are able to manage Toney very easily. There's few PL teams that play with a goal-getting centre froward and even fewer that do it successfully. Our goal spread this season shows that all the players have some responsibility to get goals and Ivan's job is partly to move defenders about to create the space for others, it's not just about one player in one role. Vitaly showed last night that midfielders getting into scoring positions is vital and we're certainly missing Dasilva and need to strengthen there.
I think we're sort of saying the same thing. With regard to Ivan, as you say, Premier League defenders are much better at snuffing out the service that Ivan is trying to supply to (for example) Bryan. You're right about midfielders getting in scoring positions and that's where I think our formation is the problem. I think what Ivan needs is midfielders closer to him, so rather than try to flick balls on, he can lay them back to then be played into the channels for runners. That would need more advanced wide players, but that could leave our centre midfield outnumbered. The only way I can see to prevent that is to stop playing 2 up top, but then where would Bryan go?
 

Balders Bee

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IMO we need to change formation. Whether it be 3-4-3 or 4-3-3 is Thomas's choice but 3-5-2 isn't working. It's too long ball, no service from wide positions, we are asking Sergi to play out of position and Toney is isolated. We should get Wissa on the pitch in a front three because he's a threat and probably our best finisher.IMO we are at one of those change is needed situations like when we ditched 4-3-3. Do it Thomas and why not at Liverpoool ? I don't expect us to get points there but I'm absolutely certain we won't if we continue with the same tactics.
I agree with a lot of this but my issue is Wissa is doing little to suggest he should be a starter at the moment. No doubting his finishing (although wasn't great against Port Vale) but his hold up play, passing and pressing from the front look somewhat short of what's required. Thought with a bit more conviction he should have rolled that late chance in last night instead of allowing Ward-Prowse to get back with a superb goal saving tackle.
 

hanworthbee

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He’s been rubbish for ages and only 2 goals from open play this season is a terrible return .

one of the best games we’ve played in recent times was Leeds away…when Ivan didn’t play.

one player isn’t bigger than the team and he needs a spell on the bench if we stick with the current formation
 

shouldbee

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At some point he will have to be dropped or we switch formation to 4-3-3 as it clearly isn't working right now and he is a shadow of last seasons player.
It's not just about formations is it ?.......It's about the players touch, pace, prepared to run and unfortunately Toney isn't ticking these boxes. I don't think TF will drop him if for no other reason than he hasn't got a PL level forward in his squad to take his place.
 

shouldbee

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He’s been rubbish for ages and only 2 goals from open play this season is a terrible return .

one of the best games we’ve played in recent times was Leeds away…when Ivan didn’t play.

one player isn’t bigger than the team and he needs a spell on the bench if we stick with the current formation
100%
 

brentfordfc4ever

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He’s been rubbish for ages and only 2 goals from open play this season is a terrible return .

one of the best games we’ve played in recent times was Leeds away…when Ivan didn’t play.

one player isn’t bigger than the team and he needs a spell on the bench if we stick with the current formation

Unfortunately, completely true.
 

Gazza Bee

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It's not just about formations is it ?.......It's about the players touch, pace, prepared to run and unfortunately Toney isn't ticking these boxes. I don't think TF will drop him if for no other reason than he hasn't got a PL level forward in his squad to take his place.
I also noted that if the formation switch doesn't improve things he needs to be dropped so I agree that it is not just formation - however we need to try something different and that is a general observation not just regarding Toney.
 

beebopalula

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I agree with a lot of this but my issue is Wissa is doing little to suggest he should be a starter at the moment. No doubting his finishing (although wasn't great against Port Vale) but his hold up play, passing and pressing from the front look somewhat short of what's required. Thought with a bit more conviction he should have rolled that late chance in last night instead of allowing Ward-Prowse to get back with a superb goal saving tackle.
IMO he is short of match fitness. He's always a goal threat and the only way to get match sharp is to play.
 

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Toney was excellent the first few games of the season and won everything in the air, which often led to opportunities. Whilst I don't particularly buy into the often used half way through a PL season "they've been found out" argument for a recently promoted teams dip in form, in this particular case I think teams have adapted and this is why we aren't getting so much success using this route. Teams seem to almost allow Toney win the ball, but position themselves to win the second balls (often by crowding) - which they are doing. I also agree with those who say a change of formation is necessary - we were lucky to beat Villa and it seemed obvious to me during that entire game we needed to revert to a 433 - something I think we should be doing now.
 

Comic Book Guy

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He certainly looks off the pace a bit. Not sure if mental, teams have figured him out or what, but I think he clearly needs somehow to recharge his batteries as it were and start performing again like the player we know he can be. That starts I think with a spell on the bench.
 

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Good post. I think it’s injury or after effects of COVID, certainly not that he’s been found out at this level, as he’s been magnificent at times this season, unplayable in spells against some of the best defences in Europe. But something is wrong, that was a seriously poor performance tonight, was only rivalled by sergi as our most ineffective player. Surprised he played the whole game.
Without wanting restart the argument about whether Covid caused the drop in Brian's form last season, I think this has to be considered at least as a possible cause of Ivan's deterioration. His timing is awry and that impacts his ability to win headers and control the ball. While he wasn't scoring regularly before his Covid absence he was still winning MOTM plaudits and doing good work all over the pitch.

 

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If we are going to rely on our main striker coming to defend or coming back to midfield defence or lumping it high for him to head or chase, then the system at the moment is wrong!
The 3-5-2 has been sussed,I sit and watch on TV and predict the passes, which our players seem to wait for,instead of going to them.
Or they are over hit and we loose possession as it was against Southampton.
I think we will see a difference with Ivan if we had a player playing a free roll behind him and Bryan.
The link in the final third.
He is coming back too often as is Bryan looking for the ball and then it hump up and get running lads!
 

Beat Poet

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To me, I think he would've had a confidence drop around the turn of the year, in terms of, "f***'s sake, I'd scored 16 goals by this point last season and now all's I've got is five. Argh, what do I have to do to turn this around, this is the second season running I've played in a higher division".
 
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