Joel Valencia

AB

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You may well be right, although, just to put it in as standard irrespective would not be good practice as there would be likely several examples that could cause a club to lose out financially, and make things extremely awkward. Valencia is such a case, Fosu another, and possibly Devissoglu. Fosu although the loan collapsed for known, reasons where salary did not appear to be an issue, but nevertheless all three could have been complicated by salary, and difficulties occur if there was an automatic increase, and none were unusual situations. I doubt that a club as shrewd as ours would box themselves into a corner unnecessarily.
Why would any player join an ambitious Championship club aiming for promotion and not insist on being able to benefit from promotion? It probably wasn’t a big issue in the contracts Wycombe offered last season but I’d be very surprised if any of our first team contracts didn’t include promotion incentives.
 

TheHairdresser

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We can still line him up with a Turkish club, they go pots for their South American wingers.
 

TadB

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But when buying these players the club expected them to be a success no?

You can't offer a contract to a player and then say that we're not going to agree to a very typical clause because we don't think you'll be successful with us... the player wouldn't sign.
I have no knowledge of contracts only that which I have picked up over the years, and common sense, but I do note what you have said in both your posts. That said, to answer the last, most agree that Valencia was a Punt so it seems strange that signing would include a clause that increases the loss should the gamble not come off, by the looks of things it may be that Fosu was signed to assist us get out of the Championship only, or maybe even another Punt in which in both cases the same would apply. Devisoglu's contract I accept may have included such a clause as this signing would appear to have been made with the long term clearly in mind, and enticement to come over would also have been an issue. Things will become clear now that the deadline is past should the club turn to new contracts for some of the first team players.
 
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AB

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I have no knowledge of contracts only that which I have picked up over the years, and common sense, but I do note what you have said in both your posts. That said, to answer the last, most agree that Valencia was a Punt so it seems strange that signing would include clause that increases the loss should the gamble not come off, by the looks of things it may be that Fosu was signed to assist us get out of the Championship only, or maybe even another punt in which case the same would apply. Devisoglu's contract I would I accept may have included such a clause as this signing would appear to have been made with the long term clearly in mind, and enticement to come would also have been an issue. Things will become clear now that the deadline is past should the club turn to new contracts for some of the first team players.
The thing about contracts you need to include in your common sense approach is that they are agreements between two parties, not things imposed by one on the other. Back in the old days players might have just had to put up with whatever they were offered but these days players have a lot more bargaining power. B team contracts would be reasonable to not provide for adjustments by division as B team players are not directly part of our first team ups and downs and are to a great extent speculative about whether they player will progress. But that would not apply for first team players. They’re not turning up from the job centre and saying “gissajob” they’re all players we have had to actively persuade to come here from other clubs.
 

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Why would any player join an ambitious Championship club aiming for promotion and not insist on being able to benefit from promotion? It probably wasn’t a big issue in the contracts Wycombe offered last season but I’d be very surprised if any of our first team contracts didn’t include promotion incentives.
I am sure that you are right, that there will be many of the first team who will have such a clause included in the contract, but I doubt that it is inserted as a matter of course unless it is felt that it is necessary inducement to conclude the transfer. Toney is perhaps the best example, but surely not Valencia who most accept was a Punt, and the club would knowingly have boxed themselves into a corner when the gamble failed, as it has.
 

AB

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I am sure that you are right, that there will be many of the first team who will have such a clause included in the contract, but I doubt that it is inserted as a matter of course unless it is felt that it is necessary inducement to conclude the transfer. Toney is perhaps the best example, but surely not Valencia who most accept was a Punt, and the club would knowingly have boxed themselves into a corner when the gamble failed, as it has.
Valencia will not have been recruited in a way where he will have been told he was a punt. He was a pretty well rated player from the then Polish league champions joining a team he probably wouldn’t have heard of who had finished midtable. We paid £1.8m for him and gave him a 4 year deal. Just because it hasn’t really worked out doesn’t mean he was given the contract you think today he merits!
 

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The thing about contracts you need to include in your common sense approach is that they are agreements between two parties, not things imposed by one on the other. Back in the old days players might have just had to put up with whatever they were offered but these days players have a lot more bargaining power. B team contracts would be reasonable to not provide for adjustments by division as B team players are not directly part of our first team ups and downs and are to a great extent speculative about whether they player will progress. But that would not apply for first team players. They’re not turning up from the job centre and saying “gissajob” they’re all players we have had to actively persuade to come here from other clubs.
Well, B Team contracts are a very good example of why all contracts do not include a promotion clause with an automatic salary increase. B Team contracts are full professional contracts which differentiates the B Team from Academies, however, as you example both sets of players are indeed different, and my contention is that this difference, by implication, must continue amongst the different individuals that make up the First Team Squad. Clearly not everyone is the same i.e. Valencia, and Toney, and as such are very likely to have different clauses in their contracts.
 

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Well, B Team contracts are a very good example of why all contracts do not include a promotion clause with an automatic salary increase. B Team contracts are full professional contracts which differentiates the B Team from Academies, however, as you example both sets of players are indeed different, and my contention is that this difference, by implication, must continue amongst the different individuals that make up the First Team Squad. Clearly not everyone is the same i.e. Valencia, and Toney.
You might be right, but seem to think that Valencia, coming for £1.8m would have accepted a contract suitable for a lad just released from another club’s academy. Nice work if the club can pull it off but implausible. This is a guy with an agent and lawyers and who probably earns about a million a year.
 

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Valencia will not have been recruited in a way where he will have been told he was a punt. He was a pretty well rated player from the then Polish league champions joining a team he probably wouldn’t have heard of who had finished midtable. We paid £1.8m for him and gave him a 4 year deal. Just because it hasn’t really worked out doesn’t mean he was given the contract you think today he merits!
That would depend on how anxious we were to conclude the transfer, in the same way that salary would be determined. Someone who we desperately wanted, either through his ability, for a particular position, or because several other clubs were circling would perhaps be offered a higher salary, and other inducements. Whilst on the other hand someone who was not essential, or something of a gamble would be offered less all round, this of course does not mean that we would not back his success by offering a long contract. A long contract would safeguard the club if indeed the transfer was a success, but would not obstruct an exit if things did not work out.
 

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You might be right, but seem to think that Valencia, coming for £1.8m would have accepted a contract suitable for a lad just released from another club’s academy. Nice work if the club can pull it off but implausible. This is a guy with an agent and lawyers and who probably earns about a million a year.
No, not a contract offered to a B Team signing, that was an example of how contracts are different. The contract offered to someone less experienced, less important to the club will be offered a contract that is different to someone occupying a key position, or who is high profile. To example, Toney and Valencia. The value of a transfer is not relevant, nor is salary, such a clause as an automatic salary increase together with other such clauses would be included only when deemed necessary to ensure that the transfer was successfully concluded.
 
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AB

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No, not a contract offered to a B Team signing, that was an example of how contracts are different. The contract offered to someone less experienced, less important to the club will be offered a contract that is different to someone occupying a key position, or who is high profile. To example, Toney and Valencia. The value of a transfer is not relevant, nor is salary, such a clause as an automatic salary increase together with other such clauses would be included only when deemed necessary to ensure that the transfer was successfully concluded.
Ok.
 

rebus

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I am sure that you are right, that there will be many of the first team who will have such a clause included in the contract, but I doubt that it is inserted as a matter of course unless it is felt that it is necessary inducement to conclude the transfer. Toney is perhaps the best example, but surely not Valencia who most accept was a Punt, and the club would knowingly have boxed themselves into a corner when the gamble failed, as it has.
It’s inserted as a matter of course. It’s standard stuff if you’re in playing in the championship and signing players, an agent wouldn’t be doing their job by not insisting on it.
 

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The fact he turned down a loan move to play regular football at Crewe sums him up for me.

Yes it might not be the best team or the most glamorous areea. But hes never going to get into our team.
 

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The fact he turned down a loan move to play regular football at Crewe sums him up for me.

Yes it might not be the best team or the most glamorous area. But he's never going to get into our team.
And I don't think we have exactly had clubs beating down our door to take him.
 

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I think he made a big mistake in not taking up this 4 month loan, Crewe aren't the Northampton Town of Lg 1 this season and play some good stuff in a 4-3-3.

The only flipside is I get to see what the magnificently named J'Neil Lloyd-Bennett is all about given he's Valencia's late loan replacement.
 

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I think he made a big mistake in not taking up this 4 month loan, Crewe aren't the Northampton Town of Lg 1 this season and play some good stuff in a 4-3-3.

The only flipside is I get to see what the magnificently named J'Neil Lloyd-Bennett is all about given he's Valencia's late loan replacement.

Yep, definitely should have went and either put himself in the january shop window, or even play himself into contention again with us
 

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Ended up with a place in a PL squad. He must be happy with that…..
 

ChertseyBee

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Wonder whether we'll see him in training again??
Considering we’re now stuck with him until January, you’d have to hope so. Ridiculous that we are paying his wages for potentially two more years if he refuses to move on.
 

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Considering we’re now stuck with him until January, you’d have to hope so. Ridiculous that we are paying his wages for potentially two more years if he refuses to move on.
It's not that ridiculous when you think about it.
If he'd gone to Crewe to put himself in the shop window, and you'd hope would really excel at that level , I'm sure we'd have covered a massive chunk of his wages. Can't imagine we'd be at all greedy in these situations.

Hey ho. You win some, you lose some
 

badgerbee

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Considering we’re now stuck with him until January, you’d have to hope so. Ridiculous that we are paying his wages for potentially two more years if he refuses to move on.
We offered him a contract.
He accepted it.
Why would he not want to continue to be paid it??
 

AB

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We offered him a contract.
He accepted it.
Why would he not want to continue to be paid it??
And it’s probably a fair whack less than the £7m outstanding on Winston Reid’s contract. Yet that didn’t seem to stop a few on here wanting him back.
 

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No sign of Valencia in the training pics again today. Seems to have gone AWOL..
 

Isleworth_Bee

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So why did we name him in our P/L squad? He needs to stay fit
We tried to move him on (loan). If we couldnt fill the space through an incoming then give it to JV........................... I bet you he doesnt see more then 1 appearance this season in the league.
 

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We tried to move him on (loan). If we couldnt fill the space through an incoming then give it to JV........................... I bet you he doesnt see more then 1 appearance this season in the league.
He'll be lucky to put in an appearance in the Cup.

Hope I'm wrong as there is a decent player in there somewhere.
 

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Trialing for a club somewhere? I can see his contract being terminated by mutual consent allowing him to sign for someone as a free agent.
He would only be able to sign elsewhere in January, as he wasn't a free agent when the window closed. Unless he were to go to a country without the standard transfer windows.
 

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The irony in all of this is that the lad Crewe signed at the 11th hr won them the match on Saturday with his 2 goals and whose contribution was highlighted by Colin Murray and the team on Quest.
 

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Genuinely seems to have disappeared.. Has anyone seen or heard anything about him in recent weeks? Racic at least has made a few appearances for the B team and has been seen in training but there's not been a sniff of Valencia. Is he injured? Or have we just frozen him out? Seems odd. Anyone ITK with an idea?
 

badgerbee

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Genuinely seems to have disappeared.. Has anyone seen or heard anything about him in recent weeks? Racic at least has made a few appearances for the B team and has been seen in training but there's not been a sniff of Valencia. Is he injured? Or have we just frozen him out? Seems odd. Anyone ITK with an idea?
On holiday with Betinho I've heard.....
 
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