Membership and TAPS

hobbsy

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Possibly. I don’t know how many non-STs have high TAPs but if guaranteed away tickets are going to members with c2000 TAPs (ie that’s around the level to put a member into the top 150 members interested in any away game) it might be an easy change to make without substantially reducing the chances of STs to get away tickets. It does seem somewhat unfair if a ST in (E) or (F) can much more easily get an away ticket than a member in (C) or (D).
Before the season started there were only 300 with over 3000 TAPs.
 

AB

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Just on this point - because it is a loyalty scheme as well as an away ticket allocation scheme, and used to incentivise the behaviour the club benefits from, i.e. repeatedly buying season tickets and putting money in the club's coffers in May before the revenue-free summer, not least in years when there was far, far less demand.
Is it really a loyalty scheme? IIRC it was started as a response to chaotic scenes in trying to allocate tickets for games where demand was much higher than supply. TAPs are ticket access points so I think very much focused on being a system for allocating priority fairly for access to tickets. In the past they were also an incentive for buying or renewing STs (or merch from the shop) and giving the club guaranteed revenue when it rarely sold out.
 

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Is it really a loyalty scheme? IIRC it was started as a response to chaotic scenes in trying to allocate tickets for games where demand was much higher than supply. TAPs are ticket access points so I think very much focused on being a system for allocating priority fairly for access to tickets. In the past they were also an incentive for buying or renewing STs (or merch from the shop) and giving the club guaranteed revenue when it rarely sold out.
I think it was certainly part of the intention when it was set up. Like many things it may have worked well for one set of circumstances - small numbers of committed people to measure and prioritise - but work less well at a larger scale when perhaps there are different things the club would want to incentivise now.
 
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olliebfc

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I do. Especially as STs are not on sale...

One for wider debate.
I agree. Don’t think it’s right that a season ticket holder on fairly low points gets away tickets before members on high ones. Loyalty points should be loyalty points. Season ticket guarantees you entry to every home game and you’ll build your taps over the years. Someone on here suggested before something along the lines of your points from 5years ago are worth 60% and 4 years ago are 80% anything before drops off, I feel that’s a sensible thought process which wouldn’t punish loyal fans for a difficult season (financial or otherwise) but also gives chance to reward fans who are still attending and creating atmosphere.
 

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I’d be group C in your description. However only have 1482 taps. Haven’t had a season ticket since since 2012. I think what’s screwed me and probably other ~20 games a season people is when they gave out 500 taps just for having a season ticket, wasn’t that for a couple of seasons? Correct me if my memory is wrong. (Edit also probably buying on the day/people buying on my behalf)
Went to 1 match pre 2019 and liked the atmosphere so bought a season ticket for 19/20 & got the early bird TAPS offer.
Went to a few less desirable away games that season.
Went to all the friendlies & cup matches so currently sitting at 1010.
It has benefitted me but I would have expected much more of a disparity between yourself & a Johnny come lately like myself.
 

AB

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Went to 1 match pre 2019 and liked the atmosphere so bought a season ticket for 19/20 & got the early bird TAPS offer.
Went to a few less desirable away games that season.
Went to all the friendlies & cup matches so currently sitting at 1010.
It has benefitted me but I would have expected much more of a disparity between yourself & a Johnny come lately like myself.
A classic (D)! Buying a ST during an 11th place Championship finish season, not long after TF’s initial losing run and immediately starting to travel away is decent commitment from a new fan.
 

olliebfc

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Went to 1 match pre 2019 and liked the atmosphere so bought a season ticket for 19/20 & got the early bird TAPS offer.
Went to a few less desirable away games that season.
Went to all the friendlies & cup matches so currently sitting at 1010.
It has benefitted me but I would have expected much more of a disparity between yourself & a Johnny come lately like myself.
I’ve probably only been consciously building my taps in any form since 2018. Prior to that it was more important to get a seat next to my dad or friend so we bought together as there was no limit etc and no one even considered allocating them to a particular person. Other then the odd big game with limits where it had to be one per person you just paid your money and showed up, didn’t spend any extra time with Brentford’s ticket system then necessary. More fool me in the past I guess, but I think the system can still be improved in the future eg. TAPs are TAPs, not season ticket with lower get priority (I’d love to buy a season ticket now lol as it would save me a lot of money)
 

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I agree. Don’t think it’s right that a season ticket holder on fairly low points gets away tickets before members on high ones. Loyalty points should be loyalty points. Season ticket guarantees you entry to every home game and you’ll build your taps over the years. Someone on here suggested before something along the lines of your points from 5years ago are worth 60% and 4 years ago are 80% anything before drops off, I feel that’s a sensible thought process which wouldn’t punish loyal fans for a difficult season (financial or otherwise) but also gives chance to reward fans who are still attending and creating atmosphere.
I've been thinking that the points tapering might not be needed as it's being carried out naturally:
We've only sold out the London aways to STH only so far which suggests there's a fair proportion who only fancy or are able to go to local games. They will be overtaken over time by those getting the extra points for long distance aways.
So the high TAPs local only goers will still qualify for a while until one day there'll be told, "sorry mate don't qualify any more" at which time you'd hope that they'd be actually inwardly happy that don't have to make the trek from Seven Sisters to WHL any more
 
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Jay Bee

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It would be interesting to see what the actual distribution of TAPs holders at different levels is. I think it is unlikely to be a straight line going from none at 7500 to about 6000 having <100.

My fag packet groupings are:
(A) people who have gone to a very high proportion of home and away games regardless of distance whether ST holders before this season or not. >5k TAPs
(B) long term ST holders or who have gone to most homes and a few big/local aways each season. >3k
(C) people who have on average attended 10-20 games a season home or away for many years, sometimes having a ST, sometimes having seasons where they’ve not gone much. 2-3k
(D) people who are newer fans and didn’t start coming regularly until we went up to the Championship, maybe went quite a bit in 14-15, not so much 15-19 unless for big games, maybe got a ST 2019 onwards or long termers averaging 5-10 games a season. 1-2k
(E) long term regular 2-3 games on average, maybe used to go a lot back in the day but for family, work etc reasons not so much more recently but loved seeing us finally become good. c500
(F) occasionals and new fans <500

I’d expect almost everyone in (A) and (B) to have STs. They look from allocations last season and for guaranteed away tickets this season to have about 3000 bees. (A) has probably no more than 500 from thinking of how many regular faces I’d see at far flung aways. Most of (B) didn’t before this season travel to a lot of aways and while many will be more inclined to now still far from all. Which is why aways have so far always gone to the next tier.

(C) will probably have another 3000 and most will now be STs along with (D) which probably has another 4000. These two get the second tranche of away tickets. Demand from (D) might well be higher than (C) as it’ll have a lot of younger fans who consider themselves to be quite hardcore because they’ve gone to a lot more recent games home and away than the average person in (C). I think this division might explain why the second tranche of aways hasn’t been at 1000 less than the first. They’d not sell enough to (C) to make it worth making (D) wait.

The remaining 1000 STs will be in (E) and (F) (and touts/away/neutrals) but most of those will be members.
Some anecdotal evidence for your file as our F&F group keep abreast of this quite a bit, these numbers are not exact

* season ticket holder since the year dot (for TAPs purposes) that does >90% aways = 6700
* season ticket holder since the year dot that does > 50% aways = 5500 (that's me)
* season ticket holder since the year dot that rarely did aways (2-3 a season), but more this season = 4200
* season ticket holder since 2014 promotion that rarely does aways = 2800
* season ticket holder since 2020 that did a mixture of homes and aways before that, 25% of homes at most = 1500
 

hobbsy

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Some anecdotal evidence for your file as our F&F group keep abreast of this quite a bit, these numbers are not exact

* season ticket holder since the year dot (for TAPs purposes) that does >90% aways = 6700
* season ticket holder since the year dot that does > 50% aways = 5500 (that's me)
* season ticket holder since the year dot that rarely did aways (2-3 a season), but more this season = 4200
* season ticket holder since 2014 promotion that rarely does aways = 2800
* season ticket holder since 2020 that did a mixture of homes and aways before that, 25% of homes at most = 1500
I can add for mrs hobbsy, member that attended around 50% of home and away matches without a season ticket for a few years ~ 1200 TAPS.
 

Banana

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Some anecdotal evidence for your file as our F&F group keep abreast of this quite a bit, these numbers are not exact

* season ticket holder since the year dot (for TAPs purposes) that does >90% aways = 6700
* season ticket holder since the year dot that does > 50% aways = 5500 (that's me)
* season ticket holder since the year dot that rarely did aways (2-3 a season), but more this season = 4200
* season ticket holder since 2014 promotion that rarely does aways = 2800
* season ticket holder since 2020 that did a mixture of homes and aways before that, 25% of homes at most = 1500
Well I am way, way short of 4,200. Almost 2,000 short. WHERE ARE MY MISSING TAPs????
 

Jules

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Well I am way, way short of 4,200. Almost 2,000 short. WHERE ARE MY MISSING TAPs????
Its an interesting analysis, and i've often wondered if my TAPs were right. Cant remember when I last didn't have a season ticket in my own name (maybe '04?), so definitely tick that box, and am probably somewhere in between the 2-3 away games and the >50%, but am on just under 3700 TAPs
 

Brentford77

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Why should season ticket holders friends get tickets that should be available for members to buy?
Well here's the thing. I have been going to GP & now LR since 1974. I was an original member of the Lifeline initiative when the club was on hard times and have supported the Bees through all the tough recent decades. Over the years, I have always enjoyed attending games with friends and have regularly done so. There has never been an issue with demand exceeding supply before this year. I have three season tickets which I bought when we were in the championship, a time when the club did not sell out all of its season tickets to Bees fans. When Covid stopped us going and the club asked to keep my money to aid cash flow, I, like most others, willingly acquiesced. So here we are now in the Premier League and suddenly lots of supporters who have been occasional supporters in recent years want tickets. Each and every one of them could have guaranteed themselves a season ticket if they had been prepared to buy one for last season when the club would have happily sold them one. So now, often I go with my children who are also my co-holders but from time to time I upgrade one or both child tickets (particularly for late kick offs) and take my wife or a friend or two. That's just how it is. And when I looked behind me at Stoke last week and saw 1,600 people behind me, I also saw lots of empty seats for away supporters. If people are that desperate to see the super Bees, there are a number of opportunities... And for Spurs away, I am going as a guest of a friend there who has two season tickets...thereby doubtless denying an occasional Spurs fan a ticket. So I am really not going to apologise for having a different interpretation to others over the rights and wrongs of this.
 

Alex

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Well here's the thing. I have been going to GP & now LR since 1974. I was an original member of the Lifeline initiative when the club was on hard times and have supported the Bees through all the tough recent decades. Over the years, I have always enjoyed attending games with friends and have regularly done so. There has never been an issue with demand exceeding supply before this year. I have three season tickets which I bought when we were in the championship, a time when the club did not sell out all of its season tickets to Bees fans. When Covid stopped us going and the club asked to keep my money to aid cash flow, I, like most others, willingly acquiesced. So here we are now in the Premier League and suddenly lots of supporters who have been occasional supporters in recent years want tickets. Each and every one of them could have guaranteed themselves a season ticket if they had been prepared to buy one for last season when the club would have happily sold them one. So now, often I go with my children who are also my co-holders but from time to time I upgrade one or both child tickets (particularly for late kick offs) and take my wife or a friend or two. That's just how it is. And when I looked behind me at Stoke last week and saw 1,600 people behind me, I also saw lots of empty seats for away supporters. If people are that desperate to see the super Bees, there are a number of opportunities... And for Spurs away, I am going as a guest of a friend there who has two season tickets...thereby doubtless denying an occasional Spurs fan a ticket. So I am really not going to apologise for having a different interpretation to others over the rights and wrongs of this.

I am not expecting anyone to apologise it is allowed in the terms and conditions. My opinion is that now that demand exceeds supply I don’t think it should be allowed anymore.
 

rebus

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I am not expecting anyone to apologise it is allowed in the terms and conditions. My opinion is that now that demand exceeds supply I don’t think it should be allowed anymore.
Having thought about this for a while I do agree with you. It’s a child’s ticket for a reason and should be put out on the exchange if not used.
 

Banana

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Having thought about this for a while I do agree with you. It’s a child’s ticket for a reason and should be put out on the exchange if not used.
I concur in a perfect world. All STHers and PSHers would selfishly put their tickets up for the next in the official line to get them. In reality....
 

Brentford77

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I am not expecting anyone to apologise it is allowed in the terms and conditions. My opinion is that now that demand exceeds supply I don’t think it should be allowed anymore.
Appreciate your thoughtful and measured response. We will agree to differ. And whilst I respect Rebus’ view, I just don’t agree. I bought the tickets for the kids knowing I would use them this way. And speaking to others in the family stand, I am not alone in bringing adults to the evening games instead of the kids. Why should I cede the right to do this to accommodate fans who in many instances were not here in years gone by and will not be when we drop out of the Prem be that this season or (hopefully) a decade or more from now?
 

Banana

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Appreciate your thoughtful and measured response. We will agree to differ. And whilst I respect Rebus’ view, I just don’t agree. I bought the tickets for the kids knowing I would use them this way. And speaking to others in the family stand, I am not alone in bringing adults to the evening games instead of the kids. Why should I cede the right to do this to accommodate fans who in many instances were not here in years gone by and will not be when we drop out of the Prem be that this season or (hopefully) a decade or more from now?
It's a fair point TBH. You are probably in a better position to determine who is a BFC supporter than the membership scheme. Which is a sad state of affairs when you look at it.
 
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rebus

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Appreciate your thoughtful and measured response. We will agree to differ. And whilst I respect Rebus’ view, I just don’t agree. I bought the tickets for the kids knowing I would use them this way. And speaking to others in the family stand, I am not alone in bringing adults to the evening games instead of the kids. Why should I cede the right to do this to accommodate fans who in many instances were not here in years gone by and will not be when we drop out of the Prem be that this season or (hopefully) a decade or more from now?
What I would put forward is that the club will always need new Brentford fans and have to get the mix right. Let’s not restrict teenagers or older new to the area just because they weren’t going a few years back. I could argue your mates are by-passing the system and not coughing up a membership.

However, the club’s current policy is to endorse your approach so who am I to complain.
 

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Having thought about this for a while I do agree with you. It’s a child’s ticket for a reason and should be put out on the exchange if not used.
I would have thought that upgrading a child's (or OAP's) ticket is substantially no different to the long-accepted practice of lending a full price ST to a friend or family member. Most of us will have done precisely this on occasions when unable to attend the odd home game. The number of STH's doing this at any given fixture probably runs into the hundreds. The only difference is that holders of full price ST's do not have to put their heads above the parapet by upgrading. This is not a straight forward issue.
 

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Appreciate your thoughtful and measured response. We will agree to differ. And whilst I respect Rebus’ view, I just don’t agree. I bought the tickets for the kids knowing I would use them this way. And speaking to others in the family stand, I am not alone in bringing adults to the evening games instead of the kids. Why should I cede the right to do this to accommodate fans who in many instances were not here in years gone by and will not be when we drop out of the Prem be that this season or (hopefully) a decade or more from now?

I do not have a horse in this race I’m not saying this for my benefit. I and my kids both have season tickets and have done for many years, my son did over 150 consecutive home games before I dragged him off on holiday one August, anywhere other tha Disney World and he would’ve rather have been at GP I’m sure.

What was possible before is what was possible before, I’ve never used it before but can understand why others would.

I don’t agree with the club’s current stance of selling memberships as this is open to abuse but I still think that those members should not be deprived as most of them will be genuinely interested rather than out for themselves.

My thoughts are that if your friends are members then this is fine and there should be a mechanism to transfer your unused ticket to that member with an upgrade fee if required else it should go on the exchange.
 

Poolieboydave

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As long as it remains acceptable to give a spare season ticket to a mate (for free or face value) it’s acceptable to upgrade a kids ticket. Very happy for this to be limited to [x] games per season.

If my son was 18 and couldn’t go I could just bring my mate to use his adult ticket, in line with agreed ts and cs. Don’t see why just because my son is 7 and doesn’t attend night games I should have to go on my own.
 

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As long as it remains acceptable to give a spare season ticket to a mate (for free or face value) it’s acceptable to upgrade a kids ticket. Very happy for this to be limited to [x] games per season.

If my son was 18 and couldn’t go I could just bring my mate to use his adult ticket, in line with agreed ts and cs. Don’t see why just because my son is 7 and doesn’t attend night games I should have to go on my own.
I can see both sides of the argument.

Perhaps the club should try to find an arbitrary line to accommodate both?

Eg an adult STH should be allowed to upgrade his/her kid's ST to Adult 5(?) or 10(?) times a season, after which cut-off it should be resold to the club?
 

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Every club has membership in one way or another. Perhaps the administration/mechanics of it should be looked into. But 12500 members x £40 is £500k of additional revenue to reach club, at minimal cost to the club, in return for nothing tangible - it ain’t going away.
 

Ealing Bee

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Every club has membership in one way or another. Perhaps the administration/mechanics of it should be looked into. But 12500 members x £40 is £500k of additional revenue to reach club, at minimal cost to the club, in return for nothing tangible - it ain’t going away.
... is the correct answer!
 

RAF_Patto

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Every club has membership in one way or another. Perhaps the administration/mechanics of it should be looked into. But 12500 members x £40 is £500k of additional revenue to reach club, at minimal cost to the club, in return for nothing tangible - it ain’t going away.
That is a Vitaly a season!
 

nanny58

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Well I am way, way short of 4,200. Almost 2,000 short. WHERE ARE MY MISSING TAPs????
You should join the growing band of no shows at away game who just buy away tickets and don’t go and still get T a p s denying proper fans from going to games bloody disgusting I m h o.It seems t a p s only get checked and screened at home games, for always automatic on purchase without the need to travel ???
 

hobbsy

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You should join the growing band of no shows at away game who just buy away tickets and don’t go and still get T a p s denying proper fans from going to games bloody disgusting I m h o.It seems t a p s only get checked and screened at home games, for always automatic on purchase without the need to travel ???
How do you propose they sort that?

Take everyone's name at the turnstiles?
 

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Hobby are you offering to stand there with your clip board ? Seriously a job for our ceo being he can’t reply to simple emails now ? Why can’t clubs interact ie when you ticket is screened at away ground they send back said list then they get tap points ?
 

hobbsy

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Hobby are you offering to stand there with your clip board ? Seriously a job for our ceo being he can’t reply to simple emails now ? Why can’t clubs interact ie when you ticket is screened at away ground they send back said list then they get tap points ?

Because that requires a data sharing agreement between clubs. Fans would have to opt in to pass their data over.
 
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Srebmun

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What % of fans would you say would do that, i.e. buy with no intention of going?

I had low taps (700 and something) at the start of the season and have, as I've said several times, not had any problem getting a ticket for any game I can make, either via purchasing myself or from a fellow GPGer.
 
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AB

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Because that requires a data sharing agreement between clubs. Fans would have to opt in to pass their data over.
Even with a data sharing agreement and opting in I’m not sure the home team collecting the info to pass it over for the purposes of operating the away team’s loyalty scheme would be consistent with the home team’s obligation to minimise the data it collected and the purposes for which it did so.
 

hobbsy

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Even with a data sharing agreement and opting in I’m not sure the home team collecting the info to pass it over for the purposes of operating the away team’s loyalty scheme would be consistent with the home team’s obligation to minimise the data it collected and the purposes for which it did so.

No, it would have to be BFC sending the data over and e Tickets issued by the home team and then attendance data sent back.

The Man Utd friendly was a dry run for this, but as an example MUFC were going to add everyone to their marketing lists and it wasn't until BFC told them they couldn't then that was pulled.

The Premier League want to do it but its complex.
 
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AB

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What % of fans would you say would do that, i.e. buy with no intention of going?

I had low taps (700 and something) at the start of the season and have, as I've said several times, not had any problem getting a ticket for any game I can make, either via purchasing myself or from a fellow GPGer.
Very few I’d imagine. If just on or below a threshold it might make some sense as the thresholds are going up each game but for ordinary fans who are just trying to get tickets for themselves to attend games shelling out £31 for games they have no intention of going to for a maximum 50TAPs is implausible. The exception might be cup games (I didn’t mind spending a fiver on Stoke away for my son on the off chance he’d come with me although in the end he decided he didn’t fancy it).
 

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Nanny's solution is much easier – Cliff Crown with a clipboard at the away gates... list all the tickets sold and tick us off as we approach.
 

nocoat

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Nanny's solution is much easier – Cliff Crown with a clipboard at the away gates... list all the tickets sold and tick us off as we approach.

what happens if we are in fancy dress aka tranmere away about 15 years back ?
 

jlove

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what happens if we are in fancy dress aka tranmere away about 15 years back ?
By then, he'll be able to recognise everyone by their walk...
 
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