Points lost from winning positions this season

grutter

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After Boro coming back twice from being behind, we have, I think, now lost 12 points from winning positions so far in the league this season. Those points would put us right up there. Someone posted that the substitutions on Tuesday gained us a point and the ones yesterday helped lose us 2. I wouldn't disagree with that. I think I read last week we have lost more points from winning positions this season so far than anyone else in the championship, which wouldn't surprise me. I'd easily have taken a point before kick off yesterday, but wonder if it's DS not being astute or timely enough with his substitutions which contributes to this, or whether players are mentally not strong (or experienced) enough to prevent mistakes which lead to teams coming from behind. Whatever, it's very frustrating to get ourselves into these positions in a difficult league, but not be able to hold on, particularly when we're not currently scoring lots of goals. Maybe things will even things out and no doubt 'bad luck' will be trotted out as a reason as well. I wonder what other people's opinions are?
 

sonofabee

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After Boro coming back twice from being behind, we have, I think, now lost 12 points from winning positions so far in the league this season. Those points would put us right up there. Someone posted that the substitutions on Tuesday gained us a point and the ones yesterday helped lose us 2. I wouldn't disagree with that. I think I read last week we have lost more points from winning positions this season so far than anyone else in the championship, which wouldn't surprise me. I'd easily have taken a point before kick off yesterday, but wonder if it's DS not being astute or timely enough with his substitutions which contributes to this, or whether players are mentally not strong (or experienced) enough to prevent mistakes which lead to teams coming from behind. Whatever, it's very frustrating to get ourselves into these positions in a difficult league, but not be able to hold on, particularly when we're not currently scoring lots of goals. Maybe things will even things out and no doubt 'bad luck' will be trotted out as a reason as well. I wonder what other people's opinions are?

Missing an experienced leader who understands game management, with that onboard we'd be a lot higher.
 

wanderer paul

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Sheff U - D L - lost 1 point
Forest - W D L - lost 3 points
Bristol - L W D - lost 2 points
Ipswich - D L - lost 1 point
Wolves - D - lost 0 points
Villa - D - lost 0 points
Sheff W - W D L - lost 3 points
Reading - W D - lost 2 points
Bolton - W - lost 0 points
Derby - L D - Gained 1 point
Boro - W D W D - lost 2 points

This is where you have your 12 points 'Lost' from winning positions from.
 
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grutter

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Sheff U - D L - lost 1 point
Forest - W D L - lost 3 points
Bristol - L W D - lost 2 points
Ipswich - D L - lost 1 point
Wolves - D - lost 0 points
Villa - D - lost 0 points
Sheff W - W D L - lost 3 points
Reading - W D - lost 2 points
Bolton - W - lost 0 points
Derby - L D - Gained 1 point
Boro - W D W D - lost 2 points

This is where you have your 12 points 'Lost' from winning positions from.

Yes, correct. And...?
 

wanderer paul

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Yes, correct. And...?

Eh? I've just highlighted your point as you posted......."After Boro coming back twice from being behind, we have, I think, now lost 12 points from winning positions so far in the league this season."

I'll leave you to it then................:rolleyes:
 
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grutter

grutter

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Eh? I've just highlighted your point as you posted......."After Boro coming back twice from being behind, we have, I think, now lost 12 points from winning positions so far in the league this season."

I'll leave you to it then................:rolleyes:

Sorry. I thought you were being pedantic. My apologies. I did think about putting the results up with my post, but thought it was long enough already. Thanks for being helpful! :)
 

BerksBee

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I wonder what other people's opinions are?
It's our style of play and DNA, to continue to look for the second goal, third, fourth etc. It never really occurs to try and hold on to what we have and I don't think anyone would really want us to do that. And with that style of play comes the problem of always conceding goals.

The real problem of course is that we're simply not scoring enough goals that attacking play warrants, for whatever reason, it's been discussed on here at length. I suspect once we have some of our injured players back that will change.
 

beebopalula

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We haven't been good at defending since we got to the Championship. Smith acknowledged this in preseason and said they were addressing it. So far we have conceded 15 in 11 games. So basically we need to score at least 2 to get a win and the situation to date isn't tangibly any better than last season. We don't seem to organise quickly when we have lost possession and l'm always nervous when we defend a set piece
The answer has to come from the coaching.It's an issue if we are to have realistic aspirations.
 

Les Beeavinu

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We've been pretty good this season. :shrug:
 

jlove

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It seems to me to be relatively simple to recast the flow of any game to project a different result after the game is over. The really wise thing is to be able to do it in real time.
 
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It did seem that against Boro they had 2 serious attacks in the second half and goals resulted from both.

But isn’t that the point? We pressed them so well and high up the pitch that we snuffed out most of their danger. That’s good defending in my book.

We are defending far better as a team , pressing well and conceding fewer chances and shots.

That’s progress. We still concede poor goals. Defending set pieces badly at Sheff U, Sheff Wed and Borough and a daft pen v Reading and ballwatching v Derby but we are getting better compared to the last three seasons.
 

Idaho Bee

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But isn’t that the point?

Not really. It's certainly the point as a team to restrict the opponent to a handful of opportunities, certainly a tick in the box for that.

However, it is reasonable for the opposition to NOT score from their limited opportunities, or at least score from 1 in 5.

Scoring 2 from 2 is definitely NOT the point. :)
 
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Not really. It's certainly the point as a team to restrict the opponent to a handful of opportunities, certainly a tick in the box for that.

However, it is reasonable for the opposition to NOT score from their limited opportunities, or at least score from 1 in 5.

Scoring 2 from 2 is definitely NOT the point. :)

I hear that but it is baby steps and small progress. We have gone from conceding lots of goals from lots of chances to conceding fewer goals from fewer chances conceded.

Not perfect by any means - and I share your frustration but it’s good we are minimising the number of opportunities and hopefully the next step will be to concede from less of them proportionally.
 

beebopalula

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I hear that but it is baby steps and small progress. We have gone from conceding lots of goals from lots of chances to conceding fewer goals from fewer chances conceded.

Not perfect by any means - and I share your frustration but it’s good we are minimising the number of opportunities and hopefully the next step will be to concede from less of them proportionally.

IMO in the short run we could get an improvement by cutting out silly stuff which has gifted goals. We are a bit too obsessed with retaining possession at the back when an industrial clearance would be the better option. Dean improved his error ratio by doing precisely that and became an effective CB. Whilst I always want us to play good football, part of being a good player is knowing when the risk outweighs the benefit.I've noticed lately a tendency to try and direct defensive headers to one of our own players when a good clearance is the best option.
 

jlove

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Surely retaining possession at the back is better than giving the ball to the opppsition in their half?
 
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Surely retaining possession at the back is better than giving the ball to the opppsition in their half?

Of course , but it’s so frustrating when we get it wrong through over playing and give it away 30 yards from our goal, but that’s the price we pay for the times we get it right and turn defence into attack.
 

beebopalula

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Surely retaining possession at the back is better than giving the ball to the opppsition in their half?

Unless you give it away in our half which has been happening. That's my point . You need to judge when it's on or not on [ too much risk].You can add to that some daft roll outs from Bentley putting us under pressure. However, he seems to have cut it out recently.
 
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AB

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IMO in the short run we could get an improvement by cutting out silly stuff which has gifted goals. We are a bit too obsessed with retaining possession at the back when an industrial clearance would be the better option. Dean improved his error ratio by doing precisely that and became an effective CB. Whilst I always want us to play good football, part of being a good player is knowing when the risk outweighs the benefit.I've noticed lately a tendency to try and direct defensive headers to one of our own players when a good clearance is the best option.

Mepham quite often put the ball deliberately out when there was nothing on. Barbet less so but he has the experience to trust to pinging very long cross field passes if one is available. If Mepham and Egan can add that (as Dean was getting towards and Bjelland is capable of but probably not when playing on the right) we'll both be more effective defensively and release pressure by the CBs being able to initiate attacks from the opposite wings.

As both the Boro attacks which led to goals started I thought they were going to score but I don't know enough about the techniques of defending to know how we could have done better through the move. The only possible one might have been for Maupay to take a foul for the team early in the drive for the second but that would have given a free kick centrally in a dangerous area and a card which might have inhibited him fighting for the ball going forward.

I have the feeling that many of the goals we give away now are whole team efforts where there's not a single point of failure on our side and where it has taken good team play by the opposition to get the goal. When most teams we face will have a lot of quality it is hard to rule out them clicking like that and is just not quite being perfect in response but if you consider that we were playing a very makeshift defence by the time of the second equaliser (at the start of the season none of the 4 defenders would have been our obvious first choice) I think we can take encouragement that we can improve.

We also have been going ahead while missing established attacking players so there's cause for optimism when Canos & Vibe are available again, not to mention Judge.

I think had we gained those 12 dropped points we'd have been 4th and in an equally false position to the one we now occupy. In a funny way it'll be easier to enjoy the players and team developing and clawing their way up from where we are now which they'll know is not a fair reflection of their ability or performances than to drop away from the heights because maintaining that level of fortune is difficult.
 

beebopalula

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Mepham quite often put the ball deliberately out when there was nothing on. Barbet less so but he has the experience to trust to pinging very long cross field passes if one is available. If Mepham and Egan can add that (as Dean was getting towards and Bjelland is capable of but probably not when playing on the right) we'll both be more effective defensively and release pressure by the CBs being able to initiate attacks from the opposite wings.

As both the Boro attacks which led to goals started I thought they were going to score but I don't know enough about the techniques of defending to know how we could have done better through the move. The only possible one might have been for Maupay to take a foul for the team early in the drive for the second but that would have given a free kick centrally in a dangerous area and a card which might have inhibited him fighting for the ball going forward.

I have the feeling that many of the goals we give away now are whole team efforts where there's not a single point of failure on our side and where it has taken good team play by the opposition to get the goal. When most teams we face will have a lot of quality it is hard to rule out them clicking like that and is just not quite being perfect in response but if you consider that we were playing a very makeshift defence by the time of the second equaliser (at the start of the season none of the 4 defenders would have been our obvious first choice) I think we can take encouragement that we can improve.

We also have been going ahead while missing established attacking players so there's cause for optimism when Canos & Vibe are available again, not to mention Judge.

I think had we gained those 12 dropped points we'd have been 4th and in an equally false position to the one we now occupy. In a funny way it'll be easier to enjoy the players and team developing and clawing their way up from where we are now which they'll know is not a fair reflection of their ability or performances than to drop away from the heights because maintaining that level of fortune is difficult.

I noted that Mepham was displaying the right judgements across the range of defending vs Derby and maybe it's simply something you have or don't have as a player. Whilst I love football played the right way, IMO an industrial intervention is also part of that in my view.Mepham will be a quality player for us. Re the attacking I agree and am sure we will be fine when we can replicate the attacking play out wide on both wings which Jota and Canos introduced last year. They stretched defences and created a lot of space. Perm any 2 from Canos, Watkins and Clarke in that role and I'm assuming that Marcondes will strengthen that option. We will be fine.
 

Isleworth_Bee

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IMO in the short run we could get an improvement by cutting out silly stuff which has gifted goals. We are a bit too obsessed with retaining possession at the back when an industrial clearance would be the better option. Dean improved his error ratio by doing precisely that and became an effective CB. Whilst I always want us to play good football, part of being a good player is knowing when the risk outweighs the benefit.I've noticed lately a tendency to try and direct defensive headers to one of our own players when a good clearance is the best option.

I know what you are saying and yes it is frustrating when we concede goals like that. But IMO i dont think too many have come from giving the ball away from trying to retain the ball. Our problem is that we switch off from break downs and set pieces.
 

beebopalula

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I know what you are saying and yes it is frustrating when we concede goals like that. But IMO i dont think too many have come from giving the ball away from trying to retain the ball. Our problem is that we switch off from break downs and set pieces.

Agree we haven't conceded a goal a from trying to retain possession with defensive headers but we have lost possession maybe 30 yards out and created a dangerous situation when its not necessary. Definitely not good at break downs and set pieces. It has to be down to coaching IMO.
 

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I was recently given a match programme for the 1947-48 season - 10th match at home to Barnsley. The Bees had lost 8 of their first 9 games and were at the foot of the table. The notes at the front could almost have been written for this season e.g ' Here was a game in which the Bees should have scored three times within fifteen minutes of the start. The chances were there for victory (against Forest) to have been made almost a certainty quite early in the game, and it was not so much bad finishing but rank bad luck that prevented the Bees getting the goals that should have come their way. They went on to lose only seven more games and finished 15th.
 

AB

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I noted that Mepham was displaying the right judgements across the range of defending vs Derby and maybe it's simply something you have or don't have as a player. Whilst I love football played the right way, IMO an industrial intervention is also part of that in my view.Mepham will be a quality player for us. Re the attacking I agree and am sure we will be fine when we can replicate the attacking play out wide on both wings which Jota and Canos introduced last year. They stretched defences and created a lot of space. Perm any 2 from Canos, Watkins and Clarke in that role and I'm assuming that Marcondes will strengthen that option. We will be fine.

Encouragingly I think only one of Mepham's clearances to touch was an "industrial" boot into Row Z- the rest were controlled and forward as far as was clearly safe. That suggests to me that he has a good range of control which augurs well for him being able to pass the ball out accurately when there's an available option and that he has a cool enough head not to have booting the ball as hard and far upfield as possible as his first instinct. Early days as yet of course, but very positive and you can see why the club has invested in his future as a first team player.
 
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This problem has reared its ugly head again. Is that 16 now? Getting to be more than a coincidence.
 

Banana

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This problem has reared its ugly head again. Is that 16 now? Getting to be more than a coincidence.
I wonder if the coincidence is anything to do with playing football:shrug:
 
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18 points lost. Would be top 2. Getting embarrassing now...
 

maddogging

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It's the affect it has on everyone now. As soon as we take the lead everyone feels like we won't hold onto it
 

sonofabee

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Maybe, just maybe it's why some are sugggesting we need a better blend of promising youngsters and seasoned pros
 

Invipai

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The problem is that we just stop playing as soon as we go 1 up, including tonight... we don't change tactically to defend a bit more while hoping to hit them on the break, we just....stop playing and 'hope' to get the 3 points. It's cost us here, against Reading, Wednesday and others (inc Millwall, but we got away with it there). We need to be better educated with how to adjust play when ahead and need to be a lot smarter, not just lose 10 yards of the pitch and hope it plays out the same. It needs some working on...
 

UBee5

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How can we find a plethora of attacking talent but a centre back good enough to get us promoted is out of reach?
 

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.....it's really not that difficult to understand...we're just don't have what every winning team has....a ruthlessness....simple...promotion....yeah ok.lol
 

Invipai

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How can we find a plethora of attacking talent but a centre back good enough to get us promoted is out of reach?

I don't think it's due to one or two defenders personally, more the shape of the whole team and the mentality of keeping the right attacking and defensive mentality depending on the game situation.
 

Wise old Bee

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We all like to see attacking football but our defending has, at times this season been woeful. Not good enough imho and whilst I don't think Dean was a particular loss I wish we had a CB like Aiden Flint who does the simple things very well. To concede like we did tonight is frankly humiliating and we can have all the possession we like but that is no use when our game management and defending is so inept. Surprising considering DS was s CB.
 

BURFORD BEE

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Maybe, just maybe it's why some are sugggesting we need a better blend of promising youngsters and seasoned pros

I get where you're coming from but Andreas and Romaine are no spring chickens but seem to be among the main offenders in failing to stabilise the defence in one case and squandering possession at key moments in the other.
 

wanderer paul

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Forest - W D L - lost 3 points
Bristol - L W D - lost 2 points
Sheff W - W D L - lost 3 points
Reading - W D - lost 2 points
Boro - W D W D - lost 2 points
Sunderland - W L D - lost 2 points
Burton - W D - lost 2 points
QPR - W D - lost 2 points

Disappointing some of the points we’ve lost from winning positions.

However, against Forest we were only leading for 3 minutes. It was catch up after that. Against Middlesbrough, after leading for a while, the mad 8 minutes meant a draw.

The most disappointing has been the points lost versus; Bristol City, Burton and QPR.

So, although the stats show 18 points lost, I just see the 6 points lost, against those three sides, as points we should’ve hung on to.
 

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We're teaching the 'young' players to be better footballers, I think its time we invested in teaching them to be better game managers. It's not hard, don't take quick free kicks multiple times in injury time when 2 up, don't chuck a corner into the box when we rarely win headers, foul intelligently. I watch all these other teams con refs, kick balls away, foul when necessary, get in the referee's faces, they are brilliant at it. We are naive and far too nice.
Actually watching the Sheff Utd - Brum game I noticed Jota was having a few words with the ref at times and giving some verbals to the opposition, I never saw him say anything when he was with us.
 

Judio1999

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Sky said we are Top of the Championship

If there was a table of points dropped from winning positions
 

Banana

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Sky said we are Top of the Championship

If there was a table of points dropped from winning positions

Only if you don't add the same "points dropped from winning positions" to all the other clubs.
 

Guildford Bee

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Forest - W D L - lost 3 points
Bristol - L W D - lost 2 points
Sheff W - W D L - lost 3 points
Reading - W D - lost 2 points
Boro - W D W D - lost 2 points
Sunderland - W L D - lost 2 points
Burton - W D - lost 2 points
QPR - W D - lost 2 points

Disappointing some of the points we’ve lost from winning positions.

However, against Forest we were only leading for 3 minutes. It was catch up after that. Against Middlesbrough, after leading for a while, the mad 8 minutes meant a draw.

The most disappointing has been the points lost versus; Bristol City, Burton and QPR.

So, although the stats show 18 points lost, I just see the 6 points lost, against those three sides, as points we should’ve hung on to.

I'd add Reading to that list.
 

Friji

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On the bright side, we have gained 1 point from a losing position.. up yours Derby!
 

Judio1999

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Only if you don't add the same "points dropped from winning positions" to all the other clubs.
No I think they are saying we have lost more points from winning positions 18 than any other club

So if there was a table we would be top on 18 points
 

sonofabee

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I get where you're coming from but Andreas and Romaine are no spring chickens but seem to be among the main offenders in failing to stabilise the defence in one case and squandering possession at key moments in the other.

No argument here, just not sure they're leaders mate. Need a couple of strong, mentally tough, communicators and influencers but been saying it for 2 years +
 

Rob-BEE

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Forest - W D L - lost 3 points
Bristol - L W D - lost 2 points
Sheff W - W D L - lost 3 points
Reading - W D - lost 2 points
Boro - W D W D - lost 2 points
Sunderland - W L D - lost 2 points
Burton - W D - lost 2 points
QPR - W D - lost 2 points

Disappointing some of the points we’ve lost from winning positions.

However, against Forest we were only leading for 3 minutes. It was catch up after that. Against Middlesbrough, after leading for a while, the mad 8 minutes meant a draw.

The most disappointing has been the points lost versus; Bristol City, Burton and QPR.

So, although the stats show 18 points lost, I just see the 6 points lost, against those three sides, as points we should’ve hung on to.

Generally agree with that. Impossible to go through a season without throwing some points away from winning positions, it's the really late ones and/or the ones against inferior opposition that hurt us the most. Games like Boro and Sheff Wed (away to probably play-off challengers) are hardly a disgrace, for example.

Regardless of what the trend is telling us, I do think QPR was just a freak occurrence the way it played out. You can (arguably) forgive our players for thinking the game is over at 2-0 with a couple of minutes left. What is obvious though, and disappointing to see, is the lack of conviction we have in defending a lead. As soon as we went 1-0 up yesterday the game changed and it could easily have been 1-1 before we made it 2-0. I can't believe this is something we should just accept as "we're young and inexperienced". We have all week in training to work on this kind of thing and coming up with a game plan to deal with defending a lead. If we have a clear strategy, the mental aspect is less important as the players can focus on following the plan and not worry about the match situation.
We need to start learning from this and turn these marginal losses into marginal gains...it could make a huge difference in a very tight league.
 

Bixer

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Forest - W D L - lost 3 points
Bristol - L W D - lost 2 points
Sheff W - W D L - lost 3 points
Reading - W D - lost 2 points
Boro - W D W D - lost 2 points
Sunderland - W L D - lost 2 points
Burton - W D - lost 2 points
QPR - W D - lost 2 points

Disappointing some of the points we’ve lost from winning positions.

However, against Forest we were only leading for 3 minutes. It was catch up after that. Against Middlesbrough, after leading for a while, the mad 8 minutes meant a draw.

The most disappointing has been the points lost versus; Bristol City, Burton and QPR.

So, although the stats show 18 points lost, I just see the 6 points lost, against those three sides, as points we should’ve hung on to.
I'm glad someone else has mentioned this, I think to say we've lost 18 points from winning positions is just an unnecessary exaggeration. It's like people are saying that if we ever score first in a game, we have some divine right to automatically go on and win, and if we don't then something must be seriously wrong. Obviously it's disappointing, but that's a load of rubbish.

Like you say, Bristol City, Burton and QPR are the only games where I feel like we've actually lost points from what should have been wins. If a team equalise (or take the lead) with more than 20 minutes to go I don't think you can really say we were 'robbed' in quite the same manner.
 

Les Beeavinu

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I'm glad someone else has mentioned this, I think to say we've lost 18 points from winning positions is just an unnecessary exaggeration. It's like people are saying that if we ever score first in a game, we have some divine right to automatically go on and win, and if we don't then something must be seriously wrong. Obviously it's disappointing, but that's a load of rubbish.

Like you say, Bristol City, Burton and QPR are the only games where I feel like we've actually lost points from what should have been wins. If a team equalise (or take the lead) with more than 20 minutes to go I don't think you can really say we were 'robbed' in quite the same manner.

Should've beaten Reading.
 

GP200

Voice of the mysterons...
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Forest - W D L - lost 3 points
Bristol - L W D - lost 2 points
Sheff W - W D L - lost 3 points
Reading - W D - lost 2 points
Boro - W D W D - lost 2 points
Sunderland - W L D - lost 2 points
Burton - W D - lost 2 points
QPR - W D - lost 2 points

Disappointing some of the points we’ve lost from winning positions.

However, against Forest we were only leading for 3 minutes. It was catch up after that. Against Middlesbrough, after leading for a while, the mad 8 minutes meant a draw.

The most disappointing has been the points lost versus; Bristol City, Burton and QPR.

So, although the stats show 18 points lost, I just see the 6 points lost, against those three sides, as points we should’ve hung on to.
.............Sheff Weds was disappointing,played them off the park first half and they score in injury time,it lifts them and the silent home support...............
 
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