Promotion Bonuses

Banana

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Looks like The People have an inside track:
Brentford players will share a whopping £15million if they reach the Premier League, writes Neil Moxley in the Sunday People.

The cash was laid on the table at the start of the season by controversial owner Matthew Benham.

And boss Mark Warburton and his boys will be laughing all the way to the bank if they can push their way into the mix during the final fortnight of the season.

Brentford have used 23 players during their Championship campaign so far and any player who has appeared 40 times can expect to trouser over £700,000.

It is not the first time that Benham – a colourful figure who made his fortune using statistical modelling to beat the bookies in football betting – has used such an incentive.

There was also significant cash on offer when the Bees were promoted from League One last term.

However, Brentford have a wage bill that is among the lowest in the division, with the bonus structure more than making up for any shortfall should the club make the move into the top flight for the first time in their history.

Controversial owner eh? Maybe. "Colourful figure" though? :D
 

The Pipe

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Well that's one expenditure that's been saved
 

grutter

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Hardly, it will have to be spent next season on funding a deficit.

What deficit? I'm sure the grand business plan allowed for us to be in this league till Lionel road. Not as though we spent millions in the window, is it?
 
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Banana

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What deficit? I'm sure the grand business plan allowed for us to be in this league till Lionel road. Not as though we spent millions in the window, is it?

I'm lost for words.
 

NorthamptonBee

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I'm lost for words.

This post that you quote and Taylor339's on the other thread just show how far removed from the truth some fans are, I'm off to bang my head against a wall for some considerable time.
 

grutter

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I'm lost for words.

Perhaps you'd care to expand. The point I was making was that we wouldn't have expected to be in the PL next season, therefore the budgeting for this season, although running at a deficit, was planned for, and as we didn't spend big in the window (except for McLeod) this deficit wouldn't have been larger than expected, given attendances are slightly above predictions also. A 15 million bonus would be easily affordable had we gone up. We didn't. MB has said (I think you reported) harder and faster next year, so just why are you "lost for words"?
 

Les Beeavinu

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Controversial owner. FFS. Makes me very sad. The media have been played like a ****ing violin and the man who got us where we are has been made to look a mug.
 
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Banana

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Perhaps you'd care to expand. The point I was making was that we wouldn't have expected to be in the PL next season, therefore the budgeting for this season, although running at a deficit, was planned for, and as we didn't spend big in the window (except for McLeod) this deficit wouldn't have been larger than expected, given attendances are slightly above predictions also. A 15 million bonus would be easily affordable had we gone up. We didn't. MB has said (I think you reported) harder and faster next year, so just why are you "lost for words"?

1. Why do you think we didn't expect to up this year?
2. Your previous post "what deficit?" this post: "although running at at deficit was planned for"
3. "I'm sure the grand business plan allowed for us to be in this league till Lionel road" - what makes you so sure of this?
 
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Banana

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Might also be the reason why we field certain players all the time whether starting or bench and coming on

Indeed. Perhaps a closed-shop to new players coming in eh?
 

grutter

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1. Why do you think we didn't expect to up this year?
2. Your previous post "what deficit?" this post: "although running at at deficit was planned for"
3. "I'm sure the grand business plan allowed for us to be in this league till Lionel road" - what makes you so sure of this?

1. I got the impression that very few people, certainly no-one on here, expected us to go up at the start of the season. Even half way through, I doubt many 'expected' it, hoped maybe. MB may have expected it, I don't know.
2. Fair enough. When I said 'what deficit', I was responding to your point about the 15 million going towards that. You gave the impression that that money would now be diverted to the deficit, when what I was trying to infer was that any deficit had already been planned for.
3. I'm not 'sure' of it. However, (a)I'm confident our wage bill and squad size is amongst the lower half of the league. (b) When we blew up 2 years ago against Doncaster, we were still said to be 'ahead of schedule'. (c) If we had gone up, then if were still at GP, our attendances would be what they are now, which would be by far the smallest, unless we ground shared. I always thought LR was to coincide with PL arrival.

I do not, of course have access to the boardroom, but if you know otherwise, feel free to straighten me out.
 
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Banana

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1. I got the impression that very few people, certainly no-one on here, expected us to go up at the start of the season. Even half way through, I doubt many 'expected' it, hoped maybe. MB may have expected it, I don't know.
2. Fair enough. When I said 'what deficit', I was responding to your point about the 15 million going towards that. You gave the impression that that money would now be diverted to the deficit, when what I was trying to infer was that any deficit had already been planned for.
3. I'm not 'sure' of it. However, (a)I'm confident our wage bill and squad size is amongst the lower half of the league. (b) When we blew up 2 years ago against Doncaster, we were still said to be 'ahead of schedule'. (c) If we had gone up, then if were still at GP, our attendances would be what they are now, which would be by far the smallest, unless we ground shared. I always thought LR was to coincide with PL arrival.

I do not, of course have access to the boardroom, but if you know otherwise, feel free to straighten me out.

1. We will leave it at that
2. Well - I expect to pay my mortgage for the next n years - be nice not to though eh? Especially if it's in the order of £70m and growing at £10-15m a year
3. Gates don't mean jack sh*t in the Premiership. The TV money dwarves everything.
 

abee

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Banana,
Assuming that the report is correct (we haven’t yet been told that it’s a ‘crock of sh*t’) and presumably can only have been ‘leaked’ from inside the Club then how does this work exactly within FFP?

Is this damaging or has it been ‘leaked’ to show our ambitions and the potential rewards from signing/playing for BFC? In other words is this a ‘good leak’ or a ‘bad leak’……….the timing seems contrived to me?

Can we assume that it is not damaging because it would be written into the players contracts and presumably lodged with the Football League who will have calculated the impact on our P&L/FFP reporting?

I know that the FFP rules have been made more flexible recently and I have no idea of the current figures or the limit on our reported losses to stay within the rules but the best that I can figure out is that we are heading for a loss of around £12m for the financial year ending June 30. If we had been promoted (I’m assuming that we won’t be now)then there would be a bonus liability of £15m for the players and I suppose another £2m - £3m for the Team Management principals and staff.

That suggests to me that the accounts would show something like:

Basic loss (£12m)
Promotion bonuses (say) ( £18m)

Operating loss (say) ( £30m)

Players sales in June/July (say) £5m

Reported loss (say) £25m

Does this put us in QPR territory i.e. we don’t care about breaching the FFP rules (if we have done under the above scenario) because we’re in EPL and cannot be touched by the Football League as long as we remain in the EPL? I'm not concerned about the short term negative cash flow impact because MB presumably gets well from the EPL monies (tv and other) and am merely asking if we will breach the FFP regulations by paying these bonuses.

If Banana doesn’t know then perhaps one of our fellow supporters who are on the Bees United board and who post on here regularly could provide an opinion or preferably BFC Official.
 
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abee, I've no idea.
 

JB Skipper

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I believe there is a promotion prize given to clubs and thus we were relying on this perhaps, although I can't find the figure atm
 

abee

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abee, I've no idea.

Okay..........I ask on here because I'm not having much luck with polite questions through the more conventional channels. Maybe six/seven weeks ago I asked NLB in a private email what I thought was a reasonable question re Bees United. NLB preferred not to answer directly but copied me in on his email to David Merritt and Donald Kerr which attached my email and asked them to respond to me directly. NLB said that he hoped I would get a proper response from them shortly. I haven't heard a word.

I also put up on here my comments on the released June 2014 audited accounts and I did this because 'wandererpaul' had told a fellow poster that we had no debt or loans which was simply not true. I drew his attention to the very considerable loans that MB had in the Club.........there is absolutely nothing wrong with how the monies are being injected........a mix of equity and loans but I thought that I'd comment before the 'no debt/no loan' legend grew legs.

At the same time I referred to the comments in the Chairman's report that we still had two parcels of land to purchase (as at June 30 2014) before Lionel Road could proceed. I believe that most of us had understood that he referred to Duffy's and Capital Court and I gently pointed out that the auditors had stated that there were 'no capital commitments' going forward and I wondered therefore regarding the mechanism for purchasing the plots. I emailed the Club on April 2nd and again have had no response.

I suppose that I could trundle along to the next Fans Forum and ask!!! :(
 
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Banana

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abee, just done some digging and my understanding is (interestingly) that bonuses don't count towards FFP.
 

GABS

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abee, just done some digging and my understanding is (interestingly) that bonuses don't count towards FFP.

I bet QPR will be quoting bonuses all over the shop pretty soon then!
 

abee

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abee, just done some digging and my understanding is (interestingly) that bonuses don't count towards FFP.

:sorted:

Thanks for this............so it was a 'good leak' then........ which reminds me
 

Bill Benn

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No wonder it's all kicking off in the dressing room lol

On a serious note,I can't see how bonuses are not included in FFP as there are no limits to what you can claim as a bonus.
 

Gee Bee

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No wonder it's all kicking off in the dressing room lol

On a serious note,I can't see how bonuses are not included in FFP as there are no limits to what you can claim as a bonus.

Maybe the bonuses are deferred beyond the season played and come out of the premier league windfall funds?
 

Bill Benn

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Maybe the bonuses are deferred beyond the season played and come out of the premier league windfall funds?

Yes that would be the solution to get over FFP rules.My query was bonuses can be excluded from FFP as I can't see that being correct as it would be open to major abuse.
 

Brentford 4 Life

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Controversial owner. FFS. Makes me very sad. The media have been played like a ****ing violin and the man who got us where we are has been made to look a mug.

Very true, but like I said elsewhere our own supporters haven't helped much. They have doubted MB and sang the name of MW far to frequently and loudly, its only a little thing but it hasn't exactly been full show of backing for MB, a total backing for MB might have made the press look silly or at least get them to have second thoughts on their opinion of MB.
 

AB

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If the bonus accrued at an even rate (£17.5k per appearance gives £700k on 40 appearances) any regular player who got permanently dropped after a new player arriving in January would have "lost" £200k+ Compared to what they'd have got if they'd won promotion without the aid of new players. What price harmony eh?

Better to fail together than succeed with interlopers sharing the spoils?!
 

AB

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Yes that would be the solution to get over FFP rules.My query was bonuses can be excluded from FFP as I can't see that being correct as it would be open to major abuse.

I don't see it as abuse- ffp is there to prevent clubs paying more than a set proportion of actual revenue. If a bonus is offered on condition that extra revenue comes in it doesn't lead to any unfairness.
 

Markybee

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Controversial owner. FFS. Makes me very sad. The media have been played like a ****ing violin and the man who got us where we are has been made to look a mug.

Not sure I agree with that. Most of the media do have a lot of respect for MB.
 

beebopalula

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The inferences of this thread in terms of harmony ( if true ) make me feel very depressed :(
 

Gee Bee

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If the bonus accrued at an even rate (£17.5k per appearance gives £700k on 40 appearances) any regular player who got permanently dropped after a new player arriving in January would have "lost" £200k+ Compared to what they'd have got if they'd won promotion without the aid of new players. What price harmony eh?

Better to fail together than succeed with interlopers sharing the spoils?!

So better to get nothing rather than a smaller amount because a few additions got you over the line?? Odd!!
 

AB

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So better to get nothing rather than a smaller amount because a few additions got you over the line?? Odd!!

"Look lads, we can do it anyway so why should we who've done all the hard work to get us this far get less for doing it and also know we'll be shipped out next season? Stick together, get the job done, pocket all the booty and let the money man who not only has never played the game but being a maths nerd is the sort we'd have nicked the glasses off for a game of keepy uppy, know how it should be..."
 

gbems92

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Not sure I agree with that. Most of the media do have a lot of respect for MB.

Really ? After it hit the fan all i heard on every article bar a couple was what are brentford (benham) thinking , why sack your manager whos on course for the premier league etc, painting him out to be making a reckless and random gamble
 

hobbsy

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Really ? After it hit the fan all i heard on every article bar a couple was what are brentford (benham) thinking , why sack your manager whos on course for the premier league etc, painting him out to be making a reckless and random gamble
I think that is certainly how the national media portrayed it, which was based on information from their source.

I guess Marky is referring to those who know and work with the club and media department regularly.
 

Newport Pagnell Bee

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"Look lads, we can do it anyway so why should we who've done all the hard work to get us this far get less for doing it and also know we'll be shipped out next season? Stick together, get the job done, pocket all the booty and let the money man who not only has never played the game but being a maths nerd is the sort we'd have nicked the glasses off for a game of keepy uppy, know how it should be..."

Blimey mate, that's a cynical view. I'm sure you'll be accused by some of giving an unbalanced view. Human nature being what it is though, I do wonder if your rather cynical view had some links with the importance of "squad harmony".
 

Isleworth_Bee

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Threads like this are just adding to my need for the end of the season.................
 

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Having a pop at the Management and players over their decisions and performances is one thing.
But it is very sad that some on here are questioning the integrity of possibly the finest squad of players we have had for 50 -60 years . And, for the record, it is a squad that have absorbed over a dozen newcomers since the close season, with 5 or 6 of those guys featuring regularly in the matchday squad.
Hardly a closed shop ...
 

PJ

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I'd be surprised if there wasn't also a decent drink in it for the players / management if top 6 was delivered?
 

NorthamptonBee

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Having a pop at the Management and players over their decisions and performances is one thing.
But it is very sad that some on here are questioning the integrity of possibly the finest squad of players we have had for 50 -60 years . And, for the record, it is a squad that have absorbed over a dozen newcomers since the close season, with 5 or 6 of those guys featuring regularly in the matchday squad.
Hardly a closed shop ...

The players are powerful, too powerful, I've stuck up for HD on the pitch but I would guess that he's a right handful to manage, JD too, I do think that Warb's reluctance to bring others in would have had that in mind, I see his reasoning about harmony but not to the extent that virtually nothing happens but it does point to a powerfully minded set of players IMO.
 

Markybee

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Really ? After it hit the fan all i heard on every article bar a couple was what are brentford (benham) thinking , why sack your manager whos on course for the premier league etc, painting him out to be making a reckless and random gamble

No doubt about that bit but they Benham as very different from some of the real 'colourful' chairman.
 
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