'Taking one for the team'. Should we be more cynical ?

UnsungZero

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TF mentioned the two opportunities to foul and stop QPR's counter that led to their first goal and seemed to be flagging Bees reluctance to resort to dark arts. QPR received 5 yellow cards to our 1. In away games this season the opposition has now clocked up 36 yellows to our 12 and 3 reds to our 1. Yellows are more equal in home games for some reason though the red count is the same.
 

GABS

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TF mentioned the two opportunities to foul and stop QPR's counter that led to their first goal and seemed to be flagging Bees reluctance to resort to dark arts. QPR received 5 yellow cards to our 1. In away games this season the opposition has now clocked up 36 yellows to our 12 and 3 reds to our 1. Yellows are more equal in home games for some reason though the red count is the same.
Thing is, this Brentford side this season have been a step up in all that dark arts stuff compared to previous seasons. You can't have it both ways as a Bees style team (Benham stated many years back he wants entertaining sides) won't deliver Warnock football and also the recent free scoring stuff.

I get there's a balance but we've moved further towards that stuff already. For me it's more we have really missed Norgaard and Jansson. Hey ho.
 

Gazza Bee

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Absolutely - if Jensen hacks down Willock they probably don't win that game as we were looking comfortable and the momentum changed 20 seconds later. I would add to this we need to slow down games when we are ahead - we are still looking to take quick freekicks at 1-0 up where most teams are timewasting...
 
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UnsungZero

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Thing is, this Brentford side this season have been a step up in all that dark arts stuff compared to previous seasons. You can't have it both ways as a Bees style team (Benham stated many years back he wants entertaining sides) won't deliver Warnock football and also the recent free scoring stuff.

I get there's a balance but we've moved further towards that stuff already. For me it's more we have really missed Norgaard and Jansson. Hey ho.
To be clear, I hate the growing acceptance of the professional foul with pundits praising players who us it. However, while the punishment isn't severe enough (red or sin bin time out maybe better) I can understand TF wondering if we should follow the pattern.
 

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For a change we watched the match via the sky red button. With no crowd noise and very little commentary you could here someone shouting 'foul,foul' as willock was breaking on the half way line. Obviously didn't happen and we conceded. Not sure who was shouting but presume one of our staff.
We definitely should have broken the play up there and given them a free kick.
 

Les Beeavinu

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He probably should have done but there were two other players in cross proximity and quite a few phases before the goal was scored. It was Henry who was culpable really for his dreadful header..
 
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Leedsbee

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Always tempting to look at one incident and try to mitigate the ensuing frustration but the real answer is concentrate on not getting the wrong side of opponents. It may be clever to collapse to the ground under contact, pull shirts on the blind side of referees and 'accidentally' run into the back of players running away from you but I can't think of another SPORT where cheating, cynicism and play acting is seen as professional and praiseworthy. Here endeth. the sanctimonious lecture. Obviously last night Jensen should have taken the player out on the halfway line.
 
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Les Beeavinu

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We also want to get control of the Football rather than giving away cheap free kicks.
 

WarrenBee

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There was a very interesting stat given by Markybee just before half time on Sunday V Barnsley, which was. On average Barnsley give away 12 free kicks per game. On Sunday they gave away 14 free kick in the first half alone!! I'd love to know the stats for fouls against us in the Barnsley, Swansea and QPR games. Not a road I want us to go down, but clearly teams have sussed out that we have a bit of a soft underbelly, and are clearly exploiting it.

:banghead:
 

sonofabee

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Yes.

For them Kane, Dickie and Cameron all took yellows for last ditch, professional fouls outside the box when the last defender. We lacked the nous and yesterday poor Vitaly the least experienced and second string holding midfielder was left with everything to do second half by Jensen and Josh who went missing.

Reid will help us no doubt but his first start in years so we really need Henrik to get among the players and display leadership qualities and inspire young players. Pontus and Norgaard are really needed ASAP
 

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There should have been a tactical foul. @nocoat is bang on in terms of it being a text book example.

It’s important to also recognise that this doesn’t have to dilute our style of play. There is a massive difference between making one tactical foul and and being a cynical bunch of ***** who foul on rotation as part of the game plan (Swansea).
 

GP200

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Gazza Bee

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Man City have done it for years - there isn't any reason why you can't play attractive football and also manage the game well when required. We are getting better at it but incidents like last night are very annoying as it could easily have been prevented.
 

stevil

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Man City have done it for years - there isn't any reason why you can't play attractive football and also manage the game well when required. We are getting better at it but incidents like last night are very annoying as it could easily have been prevented.
Yep - Fernandinho is the master...
 
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UnsungZero

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There was a very interesting stat given by Markybee just before half time on Sunday V Barnsley, which was. On average Barnsley give away 12 free kicks per game. On Sunday they gave away 14 free kick in the first half alone!! I'd love to know the stats for fouls against us in the Barnsley, Swansea and QPR games. Not a road I want us to go down, but clearly teams have sussed out that we have a bit of a soft underbelly, and are clearly exploiting it.

:banghead:
Barnsley 24 Bees 9, Swansea 17 Bees 11, QPR 17 Bees 16.
 

badgerbee

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As someone else as mentioned, it's easy to look at these incidents in isolation. At the time, and after the game last night, I was thinking we should have brought him down and 'taken the yellow'.
But in hindsight I've been wondering, how many other similar situations have there been this season, where we didn't commit a foul (and therefore didn't get a yellow) and the oppo didn't end up scoring? I've no idea tbh, but I'm guessing quite a few. If we had have fouled/got a yellow on all of those other occasions, what would the result have been on the number of (needless) suspensions we received, and subsequently the results in other games due to missing key players..............??..............
 

Vid

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Only poor players foul. Defend properly by marking and reading the game and clearing the ball to your own side.It’s not a “professional foul” it’s bad play. For those of you endorsing this type of cynical play why are you complaining about Swansea and Barnsley using those tactics. Is it because they are good at it or that they are consistently using it as a tactic.
 

jlove

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Norgaard will do it when he comes back.
I think this is the main point. Christian has the experience in his position to both make the judgement and to make the challenge which may or may not result in a foul conceded.

With the younger, less-experienced players there's a greater chance of either missing altogether and leaving an opposition player free, or misjudging and getting a red card. I don't think it's something that is easily coached, not would I like to hear of us coaching it (although I'm sure Brian Riemer would have a different opinion).
 

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A related question is 'should we consider changing the rules of the game to penalise these types of cynical professional foul more strongly'? I know we [QPR] deployed the dark arts effectively last night, but I hate watching it, even when it's my team. Obviously it's even worse when you're playing a team like PNE who have perfected the dark arts and rotate players who pick up the yellow so seamlessly.

I'd be open to the idea of an xx minute sin bin for yellow card offences which the referee deems have been undertaken only to intentionally stop a counterattack or goalscoring chance. I'd hope this would incentivise attractive attacking football and make clubs think twice about going out to play anti-football.
 

Les Beeavinu

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A related question is 'should we consider changing the rules of the game to penalise these types of cynical professional foul more strongly'? I know we [QPR] deployed the dark arts effectively last night, but I hate watching it, even when it's my team. Obviously it's even worse when you're playing a team like PNE who have perfected the dark arts and rotate players who pick up the yellow so seamlessly.

I'd be open to the idea of an xx minute sin bin for yellow card offences which the referee deems have been undertaken only to intentionally stop a counterattack or goalscoring chance. I'd hope this would incentivise attractive attacking football and make clubs think twice about going out to play anti-football.

Sin bins would be awful imo - you'll have teams putting 10 men behind the ball disrupting play as much as possible.
 

VisitingR

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Sin bins would be awful imo - you'll have teams putting 10 men behind the ball disrupting play as much as possible.
Yeah, I think that's a valid concern. Do we eradicate on ill but create another? Perhaps something we'd need to trial in the league cup one year to see how it impacts on games before considering further. I still think there is merit in the idea if a team goes down to 10 men for long enough for it to potentially hurt.
 

VisitingR

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Yes.
that phrase from around 20 years ago applies here “don’t hate the player, hate the game”.
Or, when in Rome, or, nice guys finish last, etc.

By game I mean tactical fouls, and relatively weak punishment for them.
Definitely. Our squad a few years back was far too nice and kept losing in games we'd been on top but opponents knew we had a soft underbelly. You have to stoop to the level of the championship on this particular issue. Zero points for being on a moral highroad.
 

Ja Cobra

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There were at least 4 occasions last night when QPR players grabbed our players shirts to stop them getting past them into potential goal scoring positions. One resulting free kick led to our goal, but they suffered no real consequences for the others, they probably consider the yellows they got to be a good trade off. There should be something between a yellow and a red for an offence like that. Possibly a sin bin as mentioned above, or maybe a free kick with a number of the defenders restricted to stay in the centre circle to mimic the game position at which the offence was committed. Or simply award a penalty regardless of where the offence was committed. If players knew they would give away a penalty for holding back a player going past them it would stop pretty soon. In general I think we are committing less cynical fouls that most teams we come up against, and I want to see that continue.
 

Guildford Bee

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Only poor players foul. Defend properly by marking and reading the game and clearing the ball to your own side.It’s not a “professional foul” it’s bad play. For those of you endorsing this type of cynical play why are you complaining about Swansea and Barnsley using those tactics. Is it because they are good at it or that they are consistently using it as a tactic.
Thomas Frank thinks different. He said himself we missed two opportunities to commit a professional foul and stop the attack.

He also said Cameron bringing down Toney when he was about to break clear was the “right thing to do”.

I actually think we’ve improved at this type of thing this season.
 

HaylingBee74

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Teams could have a 10 minute sinbin for their first cynical foul. A second cynical results in a “red” or player expulsion, which wouldnt mean missing future games against other teams. The team suffering from a cynical foul is in that game, future suspensions are no compensation.
Maybe teams are allowed 2 before a red but I hate that cynical fouls are currently seen as doing the right thing.
Its CHEATING
 

LboroBee

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Only poor players foul. Defend properly by marking and reading the game and clearing the ball to your own side.It’s not a “professional foul” it’s bad play. For those of you endorsing this type of cynical play why are you complaining about Swansea and Barnsley using those tactics. Is it because they are good at it or that they are consistently using it as a tactic.
This may be a philosophical difference, if people intrinsically believe a foul is wrong or if it’s just another part of the game.

I can imagine if this was my business, then a foul is very much a permissible option, it’s just an action that may or may not have consequences.

Imaginary scenario: game 46, Bees need to win to be promoted, it’s minute 89 and Bees are winning 1-0. Somehow an opposition breakaway is on, and Henrik will be outnumbered 3 to 1...would we be happy with him deliberately tripping/shirting the guy with the ball, and booting it out of play, enabling the other 9 to set up and get back, essentially waste time, and it means Brentford get to the Premier League?
 

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Imaginary scenario: game 46, Bees need to win to be promoted, it’s minute 89 and Bees are winning 1-0. Somehow an opposition breakaway is on, and Henrik will be outnumbered 3 to 1...would we be happy with him deliberately tripping/shirting the guy with the ball, and booting it out of play, enabling the other 9 to set up and get back, essentially waste time, and it means Brentford get to the Premier League?
Would you be happy to accept the same scenario but swapping Bees/Brentford for Swans/Swansea ?
 

TG51

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There should have been a tactical foul. @nocoat is bang on in terms of it being a text book example.

It’s important to also recognise that this doesn’t have to dilute our style of play. There is a massive difference between making one tactical foul and and being a cynical bunch of ***** who foul on rotation as part of the game plan (Swansea).
The good football teams who foul to thwart the opposition, are always thought of as good football sides. You can play good expansive football and push the legal limits.
 

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Our heads looked like they'd dropped yesterday overall, just seemed a lack of leadership out there overall. We have identified it as an issue though, so hopefully we can go towards rectifying it. Hopefully it's a lesson that will give us additional points further into the season.
 

Kingston Bee

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Thomas Frank thinks different. He said himself we missed two opportunities to commit a professional foul and stop the attack.

He also said Cameron bringing down Toney when he was about to break clear was the “right thing to do”.

I actually think we’ve improved at this type of thing this season.
Agree, we need to play the game as a lot of other teams do, it's called gamanship. Not requesting we change the football style or become dirty, but we have to man up and do the necessary if the situation demands. All that needs to happen is for referees to respond quicker with yellow cards for repeated fouling rather than let stuff go, which should ensure a more free flowing game allowing footballing teams to benefit. It really is not that hard, but this is the FA we are talking about, not going to happen.
 

Guildford Bee

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Would you be happy to accept the same scenario but swapping Bees/Brentford for Swans/Swansea ?
An odd question. Of course I wouldn’t be happy if meant us staying down but I would fully understand why they’ve done it and hope and expect us to do the same in that scenario.
 

Hakonen_72

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Beezy

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tougher and more streetwise for sure. Get into the shell of the ref. jump up and down as a team. Norgaard and Janelt the masters at pro fouls. everyone else needs to get on board.
 

Vid

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Thomas Frank thinks different. He said himself we missed two opportunities to commit a professional foul and stop the attack.

He also said Cameron bringing down Toney when he was about to break clear was the “right thing to do”.

I actually think we’ve improved at this type of thing this season.
An odd question. Of course I wouldn’t be happy if meant us staying down but I would fully understand why they’ve done it and hope and expect us to do the same in that scenario.
Where should we draw the line ? Professional fouls. Professional diving. Professional time wasting. Professional faking injury to get an opponent sent off. I'll make it easier for you. It all comes under the heading "cheating". Cheat to win. That's now the default code our kids are being encouraged to follow.
 

Guildford Bee

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Where should we draw the line ? Professional fouls. Professional diving. Professional time wasting. Professional faking injury to get an opponent sent off. I'll make it easier for you. It all comes under the heading "cheating". Cheat to win. That's now the default code our kids are being encouraged to follow.
Hasn’t it always? Maradona cheated to beat England in the 86 WC but looking at the kicking the England players gave him beforehand. Surely all of that falls under ‘cheating’?

It’s part of football and always has been.

If we’re up 1-0 on the last day of the season heading for promotion and a Bristol City player breaks like Willock did last night, I’m more than happy for Thomas to run on himself and kick him over.
 

WARFIELD BEE

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When is a goalkeeper going to get sent off for persistent time wasting, a yellow and that's it never a second 4 yellows a year means no punishment at all,
regarding tactical fouls they stop a good scoring chance for Toney, we fail to foul Willock leading to a goal, 1 point we could have had, I hate it but
if we want to go up we have no choice IMO.
 

Kingston Bee

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When is a goalkeeper going to get sent off for persistent time wasting, a yellow and that's it never a second 4 yellows a year means no punishment at all,
regarding tactical fouls they stop a good scoring chance for Toney, we fail to foul Willock leading to a goal, 1 point we could have had, I hate it but
if we want to go up we have no choice IMO.
A lot of this discussion surely centres around if the FA want to improve the entertainment value as well. Less stoppages etc etc, and support the teams that try and play football, rather than the teams trying to stop their opponents at any cost. Only the captain of each team should be able to talk to the referee, that would stop the unnecessary attempts at trying to influence, how difficult would that be to implement? There is so much they could do but there is no interest from what I can see. A lot of this stuff is related to football only, don't see it in Rugby? Why not?
 

WARFIELD BEE

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A lot of this discussion surely centres around if the FA want to improve the entertainment value as well. Less stoppages etc etc, and support the teams that try and play football, rather than the teams trying to stop their opponents at any cost. Only the captain of each team should be able to talk to the referee, that would stop the unnecessary attempts at trying to influence, how difficult would that be to implement? There is so much they could do but there is no interest from what I can see. A lot of this stuff is related to football only, don't see it in Rugby? Why not?
The FA are out of touch always have been, would be nice to see this addressed but I won't be holding my breath.
 

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I am not a fan of him but Luis Suarez's handball against Ghana in 2010 World Cup... red card, penalty and Ghana missed. Eventually Uruguay went to semi-finals. Was it instinctive or just bold move to help the team, I do not know? One for the team, brilliant. If Ghana scored or win the penalty shootout, the same result as Uruguay would be out of tournament anyway.

If any Brentford player takes one (be that yellow card 30 metres from QPR goal to stop the dangerous counter attack) for the team, I would be really happy.
 

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