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'Taking one for the team'. Should we be more cynical ?

mhead bee

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Doing my fekkin head in.

Everyone complains about VAR and they might have some strange rules and take forever to make a decision but at least you don't get the constant cynical fouling. It was obvious what was going to happen last night when Ball took one of our players out after less than 2 seconds, he should have been booked and then sent off for any of the 6 further tactical fouls he did later on.

In answer to the question, of course we bloody should because until we get to grips with it we are going nowhere. It cost us last Season against Barnsley and Stoke and lets face it. 6-7 games per season and Swansea being one of the worst recently.

It is basically "allowed" cheating so we need to get with the program or its another play off defeat coming our way.
 

mhead bee

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A lot of this discussion surely centres around if the FA want to improve the entertainment value as well. Less stoppages etc etc, and support the teams that try and play football, rather than the teams trying to stop their opponents at any cost. Only the captain of each team should be able to talk to the referee, that would stop the unnecessary attempts at trying to influence, how difficult would that be to implement? There is so much they could do but there is no interest from what I can see. A lot of this stuff is related to football only, don't see it in Rugby? Why not?
Spot on, but it won't happen and the pundits always think its funny when player are "mischievous"
 

WARFIELD BEE

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Doing my fekkin head in.

Everyone complains about VAR and they might have some strange rules and take forever to make a decision but at least you don't get the constant cynical fouling. It was obvious what was going to happen last night when Ball took one of our players out after less than 2 seconds, he should have been booked and then sent off for any of the 6 further tactical fouls he did later on.

In answer to the question, of course we bloody should because until we get to grips with it we are going nowhere. It cost us last Season against Barnsley and Stoke and lets face it. 6-7 games per season and Swansea being one of the worst recently.

It is basically "allowed" cheating so we need to get with the program or its another play off defeat coming our way.
Ball looked astounded when booked and it was the third foul he had conceded in a very short time!
 

maddogging

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We won’t go up without getting better at the dark arts, simple as that. Too many easy on the eye who don’t fancy getting their foot in, they have to improve on it.
 

Wise old Bee

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Opposition players and coaches need to be aware that if they take liberties then we will respond. We are not going to get any protection from officials so we take it into our own hands. It doesn't have to be blatant, if a foot is left in or one of our players is cynically fouled then the player responsible has his card marked and gets sorted at the next opportunity. After 15 minutes or so of this they will back off. I would prefer to see both teams play football but we know this is not going to happen so if sides resort to the dark arts, we kick the sh*t out of them and referees are unlikely, on present evidence, to punish us particularly. We need to be best at ALL aspects of the game and this is one of them now.
 
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Opposition players and coaches need to be aware that if they take liberties then we will respond. We are not going to get any protection from officials so we take it into our own hands. It doesn't have to be blatant, if a foot is left in or one of our players is cynically fouled then the player responsible has his card marked and gets sorted at the next opportunity. After 15 minutes or so of this they will back off. I would prefer to see both teams play football but we know this is not going to happen so if sides resort to the dark arts, we kick the sh*t out of them and referees are unlikely, on present evidence, to punish us particularly. We need to be best at ALL aspects of the game and this is one of them now.
Bring back Tommy Higginson.
 
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QPR stretched the rules to the limit. Dickie pull back on Henry which led to the free kick we scored from. Dykes left his foot in on Raya. Cameron cynical pull back on Toney about to gallop clear. As for what was said by Austin and also their entire bench to ours after the game I suspect it was appalling.

They won too.

Other Teams don’t like us. They’re jealous, a bit scared and wary of us and afraid that at our best we can hammer them.

They also suspect weakness in us and a soft underbelly and I think they’re right to do so.

A 21 game unbeaten run confirms just how good we are and with teams tired, players injured and poor pitches I doubt that many teams will try and take us on in a proper football match.

I’m not suggesting we fight fire with fire but there are times when we have to prove that if you give it to us we will give it straight back.

Wednesday was a case in point. That was three points thrown away when with a bit more steel and commitment we would have won.
 

murphy

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QPR stretched the rules to the limit. Dickie pull back on Henry which led to the free kick we scored from. Dykes left his foot in on Raya. Cameron cynical pull back on Toney about to gallop clear. As for what was said by Austin and also their entire bench to ours after the game I suspect it was appalling.

They won too.

Other Teams don’t like us. They’re jealous, a bit scared and wary of us and afraid that at our best we can hammer them.

They also suspect weakness in us and a soft underbelly and I think they’re right to do so.

A 21 game unbeaten run confirms just how good we are and with teams tired, players injured and poor pitches I doubt that many teams will try and take us on in a proper football match.

I’m not suggesting we fight fire with fire but there are times when we have to prove that if you give it to us we will give it straight back.

Wednesday was a case in point. That was three points thrown away when with a bit more steel and commitment we would have won.
 

murphy

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Our problem wednesday was to much showboating from jds and Jenson
 

Jockbee

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Not so long ago people complained about Canos giving away free kicks after he came on.....seems we cannot win sometimes.....You Reds..
 

BEEcool

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Forget the league table, I want us to be in the top 6 of the foul play league :judge:

Incidentally, is there any correlation between teams that get promoted and their position in the foul play league?
 

jlove

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Forget the league table, I want us to be in the top 6 of the foul play league :judge:

Incidentally, is there any correlation between teams that get promoted and their position in the foul play league?
An injustice league?
 

BEEcool

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An injustice league?
Not sure what you'd call it but was wondering if there's any data to suggest teams that commit more fouls and get more cards are more likely to get promoted.
 

jlove

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Not sure what you'd call it but was wondering if there's any data to suggest teams that commit more fouls and get more cards are more likely to get promoted.
The data is available.

This season, by player, Lerma (AFCB) and Chalobah (Watford) top the charts but then it's Sunjic (Brum); Ihiekwe (Rotherham); Ball (QPR) and Shinnie (Derby), so I'm not sure there's a correlation.
 

mhead bee

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I am not a fan of him but Luis Suarez's handball against Ghana in 2010 World Cup... red card, penalty and Ghana missed. Eventually Uruguay went to semi-finals. Was it instinctive or just bold move to help the team, I do not know? One for the team, brilliant. If Ghana scored or win the penalty shootout, the same result as Uruguay would be out of tournament anyway.

If any Brentford player takes one (be that yellow card 30 metres from QPR goal to stop the dangerous counter attack) for the team, I would be really happy.

Were you happy with Diego Maradona's handball too?

Many English people hated his guts for it.
 

mhead bee

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QPR stretched the rules to the limit. Dickie pull back on Henry which led to the free kick we scored from. Dykes left his foot in on Raya. Cameron cynical pull back on Toney about to gallop clear. As for what was said by Austin and also their entire bench to ours after the game I suspect it was appalling.

They won too.

Other Teams don’t like us. They’re jealous, a bit scared and wary of us and afraid that at our best we can hammer them.

They also suspect weakness in us and a soft underbelly and I think they’re right to do so.

A 21 game unbeaten run confirms just how good we are and with teams tired, players injured and poor pitches I doubt that many teams will try and take us on in a proper football match.

I’m not suggesting we fight fire with fire but there are times when we have to prove that if you give it to us we will give it straight back.

Wednesday was a case in point. That was three points thrown away when with a bit more steel and commitment we would have won.

100%
 

mhead bee

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Not so long ago people complained about Canos giving away free kicks after he came on.....seems we cannot win sometimes.....You Reds..
Oh come on, a massive difference between pulling someone's shirt on the half way line when they are breaking 4 against 3 and a petulant foul by the corner flag when the attacker is about lose the ball for a goal kick and there is no need to touch them.

Surely you see this.
 

mhead bee

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The data is available.

This season, by player, Lerma (AFCB) and Chalobah (Watford) top the charts but then it's Sunjic (Brum); Ihiekwe (Rotherham); Ball (QPR) and Shinnie (Derby), so I'm not sure there's a correlation.

That is because the teams that do it the most get away with it and don't get yellows, Swansea and QPR could easily have had 5-7 yellows by half time but only had one or two. Second half it should move onto three reds but nothing. That is my issue with it, let them cheat, kick the ball away, stop quick free kicks, block the keeper and pull your shirt all day long if the ref is 10% up to his job he would book them every time and it it would not be an issue.
 

Hakonen_72

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Were you happy with Diego Maradona's handball too?

Many English people hated his guts for it.
Happy? I was not happy for Suarez action either, but I think it was an extreme way of showing team spirit, be it instinctive or not.

I wanted England to win that match, and I hated how Maradona got away with the "hand of god bull##it". If we just had VAR those days...

Suarez got what he deserved for his action... red card, penalty for Ghana. Asamoah Gyan should have scored the penalty, he did not.

There is a big difference with these two situations, and I would be very proud if we won when our player stopped the ball with his hands (and gets a red card as it is what should be done) in the last minute of the decisive match and other team missed the penalty. If we scored a goal with the "hand of god", I would not be happy as there should be a way to avoid such mistake by referee. I know quite a few people who would call us cheaters in either case.
 

Jockbee

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Oh come on, a massive difference between pulling someone's shirt on the half way line when they are breaking 4 against 3 and a petulant foul by the corner flag when the attacker is about lose the ball for a goal kick and there is no need to touch them.

Surely you see this.
Still a ball into our box though..bee it half way line or not.....You Reds..
 

Ja Cobra

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A lot of this discussion surely centres around if the FA want to improve the entertainment value as well. Less stoppages etc etc, and support the teams that try and play football, rather than the teams trying to stop their opponents at any cost. Only the captain of each team should be able to talk to the referee, that would stop the unnecessary attempts at trying to influence, how difficult would that be to implement? There is so much they could do but there is no interest from what I can see. A lot of this stuff is related to football only, don't see it in Rugby? Why not?
In rugby if a player argues about a penalty then the referee immediately moves the penalty 10m closer to the opposition goal. If they continue arguing then it moves another 10m.
 
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In rugby if a player argues about a penalty then the referee immediately moves the penalty 10m closer to the opposition goal. If they continue arguing then it moves another 10m.
Australian Rules is even better. A free kick is advanced 50 metres for arguing or for not directly returning the ball to the player taking the free kick.
 

Mikey Bee

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Ermmm.....Pass ?
In rugby if a player argues about a penalty then the referee immediately moves the penalty 10m closer to the opposition goal. If they continue arguing then it moves another 10m.
Didn't we have this rule in football about 20 years ago? Not sure why it didn't stay...
 

Oceanbee

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Were you happy with Diego Maradona's handball too?

Many English people hated his guts for it.
But everyone loved him in his home country of Argentina. Remember that we were the enemy in more than just a football match! 🇦🇷 👋⚽ V 🇬🇧

Let’s be honest, if one of our players did an unseen/unpunished handball which scored or led to a goal that gave us promotion, would we really fret over it?!!!😂
 
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Didn't we have this rule in football about 20 years ago? Not sure why it didn't stay...
I think it was because the offending player had to be booked thus causing more slowing down of the game. In rugby or Australian Rules no booking is required so the game isn't slowed down.
 

Kingston Bee

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In rugby if a player argues about a penalty then the referee immediately moves the penalty 10m closer to the opposition goal. If they continue arguing then it moves another 10m.
You don't see this very often, so clearly the threat of doing this has eradicated this behaviour. Football could implement very easily, why is this not done. More incompetence from the FA, or just something they choose to ignore?
 
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There was a very interesting stat given by Markybee just before half time on Sunday V Barnsley, which was. On average Barnsley give away 12 free kicks per game. On Sunday they gave away 14 free kick in the first half alone!! I'd love to know the stats for fouls against us in the Barnsley, Swansea and QPR games. Not a road I want us to go down, but clearly teams have sussed out that we have a bit of a soft underbelly, and are clearly exploiting it.

:banghead:
Yes, along with the time-wasting and high press teams are now fouling us constantly to break up the game and disrupt our rhythm (and then stopping us taking a quick free-kick).
The FA/refs need to get a grip of it.
But won’t.

I don’t watch the Prem, does it happen to Man City anyone?
 

zuko

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You don't see this very often, so clearly the threat of doing this has eradicated this behaviour. Football could implement very easily, why is this not done. More incompetence from the FA, or just something they choose to ignore?
The FA don’t make the laws of the game.
 

ruislip bee

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Second that. Great work boys. Now you need to rotate it like the Leeds side from the early 70's. If Norman wacked you it would be Bremner next then Giles etc
 

hatfieldbee

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Markybee mentioned during commentary that Charlie Austin had attributed the RaRas improved results down to they now do more of the dark acts.
 

BEEcool

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I thought Dalsgaard's hack was a bit dodgy. Happy he stopped the player but he did rather lunge (and genuinely injure him). A different ref might have taken a different view.
Agree - thought that was an ‘orange card” type of challenge. We’d have been apopletic had that been on Toney. But it wasn’t so all’s well that’s ends well.
 

badgerbee

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While I think we need to do more of this, we also have to make sure we don’t overdo it and end up losing players (and future games because key players are suspended?).......
 
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U

UnsungZero

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I thought Dalsgaard's hack was a bit dodgy. Happy he stopped the player but he did rather lunge (and genuinely injure him). A different ref might have taken a different view.
It was worse for being unnecessary since there were two Bees players placed to challenge the Wednesday player. We would have been justifiably angry if the roles were reversed and one of our players had to leave the field injured as a result.
 

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