'Taking one for the team'. Should we be more cynical ?

JCMcBee

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....the introduction of Norgaard and latterly Janelt...for me at least.....was something crying out to happen at BFC....in addition to that....our players all over the park....with the exception of say Jensen.....are of a 'bulkier' stamp/stock than of recent times......in conclusion.....we can mix with the best of them.....no bullying Brentford now.
 

red_and_white

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I don't like it at all, but we either do it, or spend sleepless nights moaning about other teams doing it to us.

For year's refs (and those making the rules) have not clamped down on bad/cynical challenges. It's a bit sad for the game but i'm happy we're now starting to do it after what we've learnt from QPR

Despite our results against them, QPR & Swansea could genuinely have taught us what we need to get over the line.
 

GABS

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I was sooooo glad Sergi and then Henrik landed those lovely, dirty, attack breaking tackles and took a yellow for the team.

Obviously I'm a fan as it helped our cause (lack of this cost at QPR etc), but mainly I'm pleased because after watching this evening my son won't complain as much now when I launch those tackles on FIFA21 to stop his superior Xbox skills whoopin' me once again 😂👍🏻🐝⚽
 

johndub

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Should we be more cynical? Too bloody right we should! Every successful team has at least one enforcer. It’s what we need if we are to go up automatically. Oh yes.... and keep playing attractive football.
 

BEEcool

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It worked tonight, no doubt about it, but would be interested to see this thread had Sergi picked up a second yellow or Dalsgaard a straight red and we’d gone on to draw. Fine margins but happy days this time.
 

westendbee

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While I think we need to do more of this, we also have to make sure we don’t overdo it and end up losing players (and future games because key players are suspended?).......
I think we are fairly comfortable on this one to be honest, would be interesting to know how many Swansea players are getting close to 10 bookings though
 

1889

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CN is very good at this side of the game which we’ve missed since he’s been out.
 

Vid

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I really feel for @Vid this evening, we really didn’t play with that Corinthian spirit!
Thanks for your concern. Dalsgaards foul was very poor. Someone like tonight's fourth official (Stroud) would've sent him off. It wasn't even necessary as other Brentford players had it covered. It also injured someone. If you're going to cheat, cheat fair. :redcard:
 

mhead bee

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Still a ball into our box though..bee it half way line or not.....You Reds..
But you are stopping a goal against you in one, I would rather defend a free kick from the half way line then face a 4 v 3 breakaway that results in a goal.

the above is nothing like giving away a cheap free kick by the corner flag in the last minute when the forward is going nowhere and creating no threat.
 

mhead bee

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But everyone loved him in his home country of Argentina. Remember that we were the enemy in more than just a football match! 🇦🇷 👋⚽ V 🇬🇧

Let’s be honest, if one of our players did an unseen/unpunished handball which scored or led to a goal that gave us promotion, would we really fret over it?!!!😂
I have no issue with what he did, I was asking if someone else did. Suarez is ok to do it but maradona is a cheating drug taking scum bag. Only difference being when it happens to you.
 

mhead bee

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The FA don’t make the laws of the game.
But they do implement them and tactical fouls, time wasting, kicking the ball away, blocking quick free kicks and using your arm to block a keepers throw are all yellow card offences but some teams are allowed to do it 15 times a game before a yellow.
 

mhead bee

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Thanks for your concern. Dalsgaards foul was very poor. Someone like tonight's fourth official (Stroud) would've sent him off. It wasn't even necessary as other Brentford players had it covered. It also injured someone. If you're going to cheat, cheat fair. :redcard:
A bit of perspective please, he only meant to trip him, his momentum slid him through to catch the ankle. He is no way meant to hurt the player.

Swansea have been doing this 15 times a game all season and currently are in the hot seat for second place. It is a tactic that has cost us promotion at least twice in the last 6-7 years on top of at least 20-30 defeats since we got into the championship.

If we continue to be the nice guys then enjoy missing out on promotion for evermore. We have had it done to us a hundred times already this season, we do it twice in a must win game and our own fans are turning.
 

hanworthbee

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Thanks for your concern. Dalsgaards foul was very poor. Someone like tonight's fourth official (Stroud) would've sent him off. It wasn't even necessary as other Brentford players had it covered. It also injured someone. If you're going to cheat, cheat fair. :redcard:
Agree that was a very poor foul
 
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HaylingBee74

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Until referees start clamping down on cynical fouls, which may be never, we need to take part in this unsportsmanlike act. On fast breaks doing it early in their half of the field, is a yellow and no more. If all of our players dont take part in this, eventually a player already on a yellow wont be able to do it. Also spreading bookings around is important to avoid suspensions from 5 bookings & 10 bookings in the season.
Do I like it? No
Is it necessary? Unfortunately yes it is
 

Ashford Bees

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I thought Dalsgaard's hack was a bit dodgy. Happy he stopped the player but he did rather lunge (and genuinely injure him). A different ref might have taken a different view.
Awful tackle and should have been a straight red in my book. Don’t mind our players “taking one for the team” if a goal threat but their player was near the halfway line and we had plenty back. Taking the dark arts too far in my humble opinion and not a Brentford thing.
 

Beezy

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I'm certain Dalsgaard didn't set out to injure the lad (who I hope will be ok by their next match). It was clumsy execution but not malicious intent for me.
 

BEEcool

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Only Brentford fans (me included) could have a thread going that demands players start ‘taking one for the team’ and then when someone does... take one for the team, we all say it was reckless etc 😂

I don’t like to see any player getting injured but there’ll always be a consequence to deploying this approach that has to be either accepted or binned.
 

GABS

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Just a reminder, QPR didn't exactly go easy on Toney and as a result we missed him at Coventry (Brum!). Everyone does it, perhaps riskier with VAR but none of that until we get to the Premier League. In the meantime let's do what we need to within the laws of the game to get there, well played Henrik and Sergi 👍🏻⚽🐝
 

SlumanBee

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No problem with the two cynical yellows last night, clearly they are listening to Frank and want to do what he says. Which is good, Sergi one was fine - Dals was so far away from the ball I genuinely thought it would be a red.

You can make a couple of bad fouls in the right areas and play great attractive free scoring football still, it isn't an either / or situation.
 

wibs

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I used to do this at University when my mate would want to chat up her fit friend
 

BURFORD BEE

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A bit of perspective please, he only meant to trip him, his momentum slid him through to catch the ankle. He is no way meant to hurt the player.

Swansea have been doing this 15 times a game all season and currently are in the hot seat for second place. It is a tactic that has cost us promotion at least twice in the last 6-7 years on top of at least 20-30 defeats since we got into the championship.

If we continue to be the nice guys then enjoy missing out on promotion for evermore. We have had it done to us a hundred times already this season, we do it twice in a must win game and our own fans are turning.
Even the truly great teams had this about them. There’s nothing new about it either. The likes of Matthews played games trying to avoid full backs intent on hitting them so hard it would negate the threat. They only got away with it then as it was thought of as hard but fair. Nowadays it would have been a yellow at the very least. Nothing has changed just our perception and the fact that the recipient’s reaction is often worthy of a BAFTA.
 

Leedsbee

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Ex-referee Mark Halsey weighs-in

There's a Twitter thread there so you'll need to click on the tweet to read it all.

SPOILER ALERT: he calls it a "poor challenge" 😇

I once asked Roger Milford about adding time on for time wasting and he said there wasn't anything in the laws against it.Seems cynicism is equally absent.Henriks tackle was awful and if against us I'd happily see a red given for it.Thomas in the post match interview inferred two professional fouls was an improvement and I guess while it's common practice we have to indulge.Get a bit closer and grab the shirt would be a more Corinthian answer.
 
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LingfieldBee

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It's really funny seeing some of you whince or say oh Dalsgaard was a dodgy one. Not here to make friends winning is what we need to do. If it means a few not so nice tackles then so be it. I love seeing Janelt play because he is so aggressive in the tackle.
It's all good play nice football but we get bullied. Good to see our darker side yesterday. Christ teams have been doing to us for years how many players have we lost for knocks or injuries.
 

westendbee

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We’ve also learnt to stand over the ball when the opposition win a free kick ... that’s also naughty, but everyone else does it to us. It’s an ugly part of the game but the officials in the Championship show no sign of wanting to clamp down...
 

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I think we all pretty much agree that a certain cynical side to our game is needed. Tactical fouls to stifle a quick counter attack are a very valuable tactic. The trick is to be "good" at it. By that, I mean, do it early enough and subtle enough that there's no booking (Man City and some others are very good at this).

Obviously in some cases that's not possible (see, Canos in the 1st half yesterday) and it's worth accepting the inevitable yellow.

On the Dalsgaard one, for me, that was just stupid. 50% of referees would have sent him off for that (definitely our friend Stroud would have done!). He was simply too far away to make a challenge without losing control. In that position, still 70 yards from our goal, there was little benefit to the team in doing that. Hopefully that message has been put across to the players!
 

chasyuk

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Awful tackle and should have been a straight red in my book. Don’t mind our players “taking one for the team” if a goal threat but their player was near the halfway line and we had plenty back. Taking the dark arts too far in my humble opinion and not a Brentford thing.
Awful tackle and should have been a straight red in my book. Don’t mind our players “taking one for the team” if a goal threat but their player was near the halfway line and we had plenty back. Taking the dark arts too far in my humble opinion and not a Brentford thing.
Agree 100%. Could easily have been red with a consequent ban and no argument had it been. Disappointed that TF has advocated this very risky tactic so publicly. A completely unnecessary tackle anyway given the location and as 5 players back outnumbering Wednesday players. Dalsgaard was naive to let himself get turned so easily in the first place before being left in Dele-Bashiru's wake and should be embarrassed when he watches the replay. (The Canos one could have backfired too as arguably he was lucky not to get a second yellow for a shirt pull or dissent when his brain went AWOL in the second half.)
 
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BEEcool

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I think we all pretty much agree that a certain cynical side to our game is needed. Tactical fouls to stifle a quick counter attack are a very valuable tactic. The trick is to be "good" at it. By that, I mean, do it early enough and subtle enough that there's no booking (Man City and some others are very good at this).

Obviously in some cases that's not possible (see, Canos in the 1st half yesterday) and it's worth accepting the inevitable yellow.

On the Dalsgaard one, for me, that was just stupid. 50% of referees would have sent him off for that (definitely our friend Stroud would have done!). He was simply too far away to make a challenge without losing control. In that position, still 70 yards from our goal, there was little benefit to the team in doing that. Hopefully that message has been put across to the players!
I think you touch on a good point here but to be good at something generally takes time. I don’t think we can expect to just turn on the ‘cynical tap’ overnight and expect to be good at it. There’ll be some clumsy ones like Dalsgaard’s along the way.
 

HaylingBee74

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We’ve also learnt to stand over the ball when the opposition win a free kick ... that’s also naughty, but everyone else does it to us. It’s an ugly part of the game but the officials in the Championship show no sign of wanting to clamp down...
Why do referees overlook this? If a player takes an extra 10 seconds to take a throwin they get booked. This method wastes minutes every game, and referees do nothing. If the ball is kicked into the opponent the man accused is the taker not the blocker
 

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Think Leeds Utd under Don Revie..Hunter and Bremner - masters of the dark arts during their mot successful times. :rolleyes:
 

WARFIELD BEE

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Awful tackle and should have been a straight red in my book. Don’t mind our players “taking one for the team” if a goal threat but their player was near the halfway line and we had plenty back. Taking the dark arts too far in my humble opinion and not a Brentford thing.
Must admit I wasn't keen on it, as regards halfway line I don't think Willock was too far from it when he started his run (QPR)
I thought as you did there was cover, but was it anyone who would have brought him down if they failed to get the ball.
I know one thing we would have gone bonkers on here if the tackle was against us.
 

GABS

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Think Leeds Utd under Don Revie..Hunter and Bremner - masters of the dark arts during their mot successful times. :rolleyes:
I was wondering how long this thread would take to get to "Dirty Leeds" 😂
 

LingfieldBee

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Just read through some more of your responses on this. How southern softies is why we get bullied and I'm sure your moan when it happens to us. Refs won't clamp down on it so what's your solution? Lets us get bullied with dark arts and moan after every game?
Come on people, if it takes a few "nasty" tackles to go up so be it.
Nandy Pandy!
Two tackles yesterday that "Potentially" prevented a draw or lost. Maybe we should accept losing then? Be soft little Brentford.
 

Balders Bee

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A foul is a foul and it's up to the Referees to interpret the severity of the punishment within the context of the game. I'm not going to applaud a foul but I'm not going to castigate our players either.
 

Vid

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You can't have a no dickhead policy and then ask players to act like dickheads.
 

Mr Tree

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Just read through some more of your responses on this. How southern softies is why we get bullied and I'm sure your moan when it happens to us. Refs won't clamp down on it so what's your solution? Lets us get bullied with dark arts and moan after every game?
Come on people, if it takes a few "nasty" tackles to go up so be it.
Nandy Pandy!
Two tackles yesterday that "Potentially" prevented a draw or lost. Maybe we should accept losing then? Be soft little Brentford.
it's not black or white, there's shades of grey...
 

Oceanbee

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Everyone seems to forget that in football there are a whole variety of incidents, including how cynical or innocuous a tackle is.

From a player’s point of view, some tackles are determined and fierce, but still meant to get the ball. A split second wrong in timing and the other player gets clattered.
Some players are motivated by ‘revenge’ tackles just to get even for a previous incident, normally just beforehand, whilst the red mist descends, rather than during a whole match.

Some tackles are in the stop him at all costs, not because I want to hurt him.

However, such are the fine margins in football, both from players’ decisions and referees’ decisions, the number of combinations of what if’s in football are enormous.

Take for example, 2 different recent incidents.
In the match v Reading, Dalsgaard was awarded a penalty against him. There was zero intent to tackle the Reading player. Dalsgaard did not in fact make an offensive move towards the player as he had stopped aware of the possibility of committing a foul.

However, as the Reading player takes his foot back to shoot, his leg contacts the stationary Dalsgaard. Not really a penalty, and probably wouldn’t have even been given as a free kick elsewhere in the pitch. Referee decides it is.

In the QPR match, Willock runs from his own half through the middle. He is chased with at least 3 or 4 Bees around him.
No one touches him or "takes one for the team". Within 10 seconds from that move, QPR have equalised!

If someone had pulled him back, then unlikely that they would have scored. A match turning point that resulted in being ahead to losing.
Would we have preferred a yellow card, nowhere near goal in the middle of the pitch, and got possibly 3 points, which might mean promotion or played it clean with 0 points?

Honest truthful answers only!

Finally, one final example of the inconsistent moments in football. Two seasons ago, might be three, at GP, Sergi committed an over enthusiastic sliding tackle attempt in front of Braemar Road.
However, just as he did it, he realised his mistake and pulled out of the long slide.

No contact was made, and he wasn’t really that close at the end. However, he was booked yellow for "intent’, even though a foul was not actually committed.

Football is a tough, fast, constantly in contact sport. Fouls of all sorts happen, sometimes they are punished, sometimes they are not.
We all disagree with the ref and his reasons why, at least a few times in every game.
That’s football, and in a way part of the enjoyment of watching.

So, please just ask yourself this question about ‘taking one for the team’.

It’s the very last game, we are 1-0 up at Bristol City with less than a minute to go.
The win puts us into automatic promotion to the Premier League, a draw puts us into the play-offs.

Suddenly, a Bristol City player breaks free alone and is heading alone towards Raya.
A Bee just manages to get close behind him just before the penalty area, but his only option is to take him out by really clattering him from behind. A red card follows, a free kick saved. The whistle blows. We are up!

So would you agree with taking one for the team then?

If so, then no one can be that hypocritical to condemn it happening in any other match.
 

wanderer paul

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You can't have a no dickhead policy and then ask players to act like dickheads.
Totally different.

You can allow players to “take one for the team” to stop an attack. It’s cynical but it’s been happening for years. We all hate it. We all love it.

As for being a dickhead, as a person, that’s no good in a squad.

QPR are finding that out with Charlie Austin.....
 

lanzabee

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It's really funny seeing some of you whince or say oh Dalsgaard was a dodgy one. Not here to make friends winning is what we need to do. If it means a few not so nice tackles then so be it. I love seeing Janelt play because he is so aggressive in the tackle.
It's all good play nice football but we get bullied. Good to see our darker side yesterday. Christ teams have been doing to us for years how many players have we lost for knocks or injuries.
I'm looking forward to Norgard and Janelt in central mid. With Toney up top and Reid/Pontus/Pinnock at the back that will be the toughest spine in years. So we can start bullying for a change.
 

hanworthbee

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I'm certain Dalsgaard didn't set out to injure the lad (who I hope will be ok by their next match). It was clumsy execution but not malicious intent for me.
No way was it clumsy or was as deliberate a hack if ever I've seen one
 

Vid

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In the match v Reading, Dalsgaard was awarded a penalty against him. There was zero intent to tackle the Reading player. Dalsgaard did not in fact make an offensive move towards the player as he had stopped aware of the possibility of committing a foul.

However, as the Reading player takes his foot back to shoot, his leg contacts the stationary Dalsgaard. Not really a penalty, and probably wouldn’t have even been given as a free kick elsewhere in the pitch. Referee decides it is.

" This is because of the ex-player pundits and coaches instructing players to hit the deck following any contact in the penalty area regardless who instigated the contact. José Mourinho mentioned it when Bryan Mbeumo stayed on his feet instead of diving in the penalty area v Spurs. His players hit the deck if someone farts in their general direction. Harry Kane is very adept at instigating contact. "

Finally, one final example of the inconsistent moments in football. Two seasons ago, might be three, at GP, Sergi committed an over enthusiastic sliding tackle attempt in front of Braemar Road.
However, just as he did it, he realised his mistake and pulled out of the long slide.

No contact was made, and he wasn’t really that close at the end. However, he was booked yellow for "intent’, even though a foul was not actually committed.
"I was on ER and remember that incident probably because it was so unusual. Sergi missed him by miles."

It’s the very last game, we are 1-0 up at Bristol City with less than a minute to go.
The win puts us into automatic promotion to the Premier League, a draw puts us into the play-offs.

Suddenly, a Bristol City player breaks free alone and is heading alone towards Raya.
A Bee just manages to get close behind him just before the penalty area, but his only option is to take him out by really clattering him from behind. A red card follows, a free kick saved. The whistle blows. We are up!
" Don't be silly every Brentford supporter knows they would score from the free kick and we would be without a defender in the play offs."

So would you agree with taking one for the team then?

If so, then no one can be that hypocritical to condemn it happening in any other match.
"If you are happy for us to do it then you cannot criticise other teams doing it to us. What does it say in the Skypilot book "" Do unto others as you would have done unto you."" I want to watch football, not watch players being hacked down on the half way line to stop them playing."
 

Oceanbee

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Hi Vid, I agree with much of what you’ve added in to my post above.

However, I think I’ve become used to the style of modern football, where if a player falls over an earthworm cast, he falls to the ground as if a priest might be needed to administer last prayers.

Thinking back, players like Jim Towers, Tommy Higginson, Mark Lazarus, etc.. used to sort out evening up the free kick ratio during the game.
By and large, in those days players used to follow your comment of " Do as you would be done by".

Every player understood the rules of the jungle. So if you got elbowed in the face, or kicked over, then you knew that you or one of your tougher team mates would deal with the offender at some stage in the 90 minutes, just when the ref was preoccupied elsewhere.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many players survived games back then, a wet sponge down the shorts and some smelling salts seemed to work.

Before subs were allowed, I can’t remember many games at all where one or both sides were so depleted from their original 11, whether through injury or sending off.

If you watch video of old matches, it is rather surprising that so many were left standing after 90 minutes.

Suffice it to say, that this season we are tougher. I would rather see us matching the opposition toe to toe in every respect, rather than being rolled over for playing great football, but being too ‘nice’.

The current player, who reminds me most of football days gone by, and has something of the Tommy Higginson about him, is Vitaly Janelt.

He is tough and uncompromising in his tackles. Often he is unfairly penalised because he does tackle the ball, but such is the strength of his tackle that the other player goes flying.
Referees have now been wrongly conditioned that if the other player falls over, it must be an unfair tackle.😳

However, Janelt is tough, as he bounces up again when he is clattered, but he does have great football skill.
Plus, his character is so good, because he just wants to get in with the game, and I can hardly recall him sizing up to anyone else in a red mist.

With all due respect to the fireball that was the late legend Tommy Higginson, then Tommy would be just waiting to even things up. I can never forget his total commitment and energy.

Janelt combines all that into the needs of the modern footballer. Player of the season IMHO because he has provided the steel that is necessary, particularly in the absence of Norgaard.

I am not condoning fouling, but such are the way rules etc.. administered, that I believe you have to have a fair amount of relentlessness to achieve success in modern football.
Perhaps, if the pretend fouls, oh dear I was tripped up by a daisy, were stopped, then it would highlight the difference between those, and then focus on punishing real fouls.
 
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