BFC Academy

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BFC Academy

WisBee said:
...........................personally sad to see him go, especially to those knobs down the road, as he was always courteous and professional in his dealings with me, and IMHO will be a huge loss to BFC............................please don't think that I'm knocking MB for "letting him go", I'm not..................................
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I thought you were answering my post about George Harmes at first ?
 

BFC Academy

aawharris said:
If parents are unhappy that their child has been rejected or let go, maybe they should speak to Chelsea. You know, the club that sweeps up every schoolkid over the age of 4 with promises that they will be in the first team in 5 years, only to let 99.9% of them go the same year.
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dubious about these stats :suspect:
 

BFC Academy

To be honest the academy is a myth.. Producing nothing. When players get near the first team Reeves and Moore (both Barry Quin finds), they soon disappear..
What is the norm is teams like Brentford will take on the big clubs cast offs at 18 year olds and the vast majority of what they have taken through since 8 or 9 years old will end up at yout Hampton and Richmonds etc.
Benhams investment and vision is to bring players through this route but I aint seen nothing from Ose's methods yet.
 

BFC Academy

It's a long term thing. Not even Clarke and Udumaga were wholly part of the new system. We're not going to be able to judge it's merit for at least few years now.

Also take a look at the post above yours. Might address your concern ever so slightly.
 

BFC Academy

How long has Ose been resposible? His players are coming through now..
Not having a direct dig at Ose because nearly all acedemies dont work. Having good players in age groups before they are 16/17 means nothing.
Lets be realistic, the biggest problem for the recruitment team is bringing players to Brentford. Yes a Championship team but still not an attractive club for the top few percent of academy players.. The reality is they will be at bigger clubs.. BFC will always have to go outside what they have produced to feed their development squad.. Some will make it, of course but very much squad players there to give opportunities to one or two individuals.
 

BFC Academy

it's a bit radical but I wonder whether it's even worth having a youth team.....it must cost more to run than you ever recoup? and with the new eppp or whatever its called any decent player will be taken by a top team for peanuts
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
How long has Ose been resposible? His players are coming through now..
Not having a direct dig at Ose because nearly all acedemies dont work. Having good players in age groups before they are 16/17 means nothing.
Lets be realistic, the biggest problem for the recruitment team is bringing players to Brentford. Yes a Championship team but still not an attractive club for the top few percent of academy players.. The reality is they will be at bigger clubs.. BFC will always have to go outside what they have produced to feed their development squad.. Some will make it, of course but very much squad players there to give opportunities to one or two individuals.
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Surely a player will want to be at an academy with a good reputation. It's got nothing to do with the size of club as it might have with first team players.
 

BFC Academy

brooks said:
Surely a player will want to be at an academy with a good reputation. It's got nothing to do with the size of club as it might have with first team players.
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Possibly but does the Brentford academy have a better reputation than others?
I would say only possibly Crewe and Soton might fill that criteria.
 

BFC Academy

hanworthbee said:
it's a bit radical but I wonder whether it's even worth having a youth team.....it must cost more to run than you ever recoup? and with the new eppp or whatever its called any decent player will be taken by a top team for peanuts
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Spot on.. Might as well wait for the big clubs to shed and then fill your development squads. Some have already gone down this road.. Wycombe / Crawley etc have got rid.
 

BFC Academy

... are you seriously putting BFC into the same bracket as Wycombe and Crawley?
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
Possibly but does the Brentford academy have a better reputation than others?
I would say only possibly Crewe and Soton might fill that criteria.
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Unless things have changed over the last 2 year, which I doubt. Brentfords Academy has a very good reputation.Certainly better than QPRs, Fulhams and many other local teams.
From my time scouting in the Reading area for youngsters. Team managers and most parents knew that BFC was a good place to be. I was always amazed that parents would get their lads to the training centers by 5:30 from the Reading area when I turned up to watch the youngsters that I had invited for trials. A few turned down Readings advances to get them to Brentford.
 

BFC Academy

jlove said:
... are you seriously putting BFC into the same bracket as Wycombe and Crawley?
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Read the posts....
They are examples where clubs have shut youth set ups.. The question is, have they got it right or has everyone else..
Is it worth the millions and millions of pounds that goes into these set ups for so small a return? The simple truth is that they do not produce enough..

Lets take Chelsea as an example.. They have a massive youth set up which produces players for other teams.. Why not just let them do it and then reap the rewards of their work.

Football has a youth set up that is simply too big. How many players in an average clubs youth set up? Age groups from U8 to U18, average 20 young lads in a squad not including triallists.. Be honest, the large percentage are only there so they can field a team at each age group and normally just so one or two prospects can get a game.
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
Read the posts....
They are examples where clubs have shut youth set ups.. The question is, have they got it right or has everyone else..
Is it worth the millions and millions of pounds that goes into these set ups for so small a return? The simple truth is that they do not produce enough..

Lets take Chelsea as an example.. They have a massive youth set up which produces players for other teams.. Why not just let them do it and then reap the rewards of their work.

Football has a youth set up that is simply too big. How many players in an average clubs youth set up? Age groups from U8 to U18, average 20 young lads in a squad not including triallists.. Be honest, the large percentage are only there so they can field a team at each age group and normally just so one or two prospects can get a game.
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Wycombe haven't closed the youth academy as such they are running the elite school of excellence model,
My youngest is signed there after leaving Barnet academy but could be going to Norwich now
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
Possibly but does the Brentford academy have a better reputation than others?
I would say only possibly Crewe and Soton might fill that criteria.
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Yes it does. I know of players that left QPR to come to Bees when the hoops were in the prem, for example
 

BFC Academy

Ruislipredbee said:
Wycombe haven't closed the youth academy as such they are running the elite school of excellence model,
My youngest is signed there after leaving Barnet academy but could be going to Norwich now
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But is that not more of a community thing, much the same as the ATP? It would suggest that if he could be going to Norwich it is and that he has not signed any official league forms. So in essence not the same.

Just out of interest, how are you going to get him to Norwich 2 or 3 times a week, from Ruislip? Hats off if you can but the lad will be knackered..
I personally would not go down that route unless it was for a youth team (U18s) where he could lodge there. Good luck to him.
 

BFC Academy

GuyBee said:
Yes it does. I know of players that left QPR to come to Bees when the hoops were in the prem, for example
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Thats not as easy as it sounds unless QPR released them. IF they were contracted, then QPR would have a good hold over them. You cant just walk out and go to another club on a whim.
If they were released, then maybe BFC became more attractive.

Also just because a team is in the Prem means nothing in regards to their academy..
 

BFC Academy

Norwich run a satelitte development centre in London. They are quite active in scouting.
 
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BFC Academy

The next step in terms of the development of youngsters is to get more and more of them contracts with league clubs and get some compo. As far as I know, currently the following are out there in the PL, FL and abroad with professional contracts:

James Bransgrove
Afolabi Coker
Jake Lewis
Alfie Mawson
Luke Norris
Michael Onovwigun
Emmanuel Oyeleke
George Pilbeam
Jake Reeves
Joe Taylor
Kyle Vassell

Not bad, though time will tell if some of them will make professional careers for themselves. The system's definitely producing more league players, which is better than the "direct-to-Ryman" results of the previous decade.
 

BFC Academy

How would you get compo if you have released the player?
I don't understand your post, or have you just proved my point that clubs develop players for other teams?
I hope they do have careers in the pro game but sadly I doubt it.
 

BFC Academy

readingbee said:
Unless things have changed over the last 2 year, which I doubt. Brentfords Academy has a very good reputation.Certainly better than QPRs, Fulhams and many other local teams.
From my time scouting in the Reading area for youngsters. Team managers and most parents knew that BFC was a good place to be. I was always amazed that parents would get their lads to the training centers by 5:30 from the Reading area when I turned up to watch the youngsters that I had invited for trials. A few turned down Readings advances to get them to Brentford.
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Interesting that you've worked within the academy set up and have made some comments based on your own findings, yet your post was not responded to by the apparent subject matter expert ;)
 

BFC Academy

Are we genuinely discussing ditching the academy after 3(?) years of existence because it hasn't yet produced significant results?

I despair at the incredibly short term thinking some people display.
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
To be honest the academy is a myth.. Producing nothing. When players get near the first team Reeves and Moore (both Barry Quin finds), they soon disappear..
What is the norm is teams like Brentford will take on the big clubs cast offs at 18 year olds and the vast majority of what they have taken through since 8 or 9 years old will end up at yout Hampton and Richmonds etc.
Benhams investment and vision is to bring players through this route but I aint seen nothing from Ose's methods yet.
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Yes lets start to throw our promising 15-16 year olds in now :rolleyes:

Its only kicked on in the last 3 years and is seen as one of the brightest set ups around.

Some are never happy.
 

BFC Academy

Houghton Bee said:
Are we genuinely discussing ditching the academy after 3(?) years of existence because it hasn't yet produced significant results?

I despair at the incredibly short term thinking some people display.
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Seems to be what we are up against at the minute................................ Im sure they seem to think of any idea or method MB has and targets it.
 

BFC Academy

Plus have you not noticed the lovely indoor centre MB has helped build at uxbridge??
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
How would you get compo if you have released the player?
I don't understand your post, or have you just proved my point that clubs develop players for other teams?
I hope they do have careers in the pro game but sadly I doubt it.
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Bit of both, mostly that the youth system is now producing a higher calibre of player, which can only be good, wherever they end up.
 

BFC Academy

Seems that with a less than inspiring start to the season some people want to criticise and dismantle everything, I appreciate people's frustrations but this is getting stupid

Unless I dreamt it somewhere I thought the Academy was set up to eventually produce both players for the club and players to sell so that it has a negative cost. Chelsea I believe make a profit out of theirs

Are people so blinkered that they expect MB to just continue funding everything for ever?????

The demand for instant success is annoying, we are Brentford not Chelsea
 

BFC Academy

Doovster said:
Interesting that you've worked within the academy set up and have made some comments based on your own findings, yet your post was not responded to by the apparent subject matter expert ;)
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Another one who can't read... I did not say Brentfords academy was any less that QPRs etc. I simply asked a question and he answered it. I did not disagree with it as he is probably right with the examples he quoted.

Take your Brentford glasses off. It's not about BFC it's a discussion about academies in general. They don't work and give back anywhere near what they take out.
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
Another one who can't read... I did not say Brentfords academy was any less that QPRs etc. I simply asked a question and he answered it. I did not disagree with it as he is probably right with the examples he quoted.

Take your Brentford glasses off. It's not about BFC it's a discussion about academies in general. They don't work and give back anywhere near what they take out.
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But the point is with the right people on board they CAN work. Look at Southampton, they've made £90 million+ through their academy since July 2012. If we can get to even a fraction of that it'll take us to places we'd have no chance of ever reaching without an academy (or a billionaire).

As people have said we are approx. 3 years into the project, we won't see the players coming through for another few years. You only have to look at the results/performances of some of our youth teams to see that we have some special talent coming through.
 

BFC Academy

JONTBEES1 said:
But the point is with the right people on board they CAN work. Look at Southampton, they've made £90 million+ through their academy since July 2012. If we can get to even a fraction of that it'll take us to places we'd have no chance of ever reaching without an academy (or a billionaire).

As people have said we are approx. 3 years into the project, we won't see the players coming through for another few years. You only have to look at the results/performances of some of our youth teams to see we have some special talent coming through.
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I dont disagree and I quoted Soton as a success. Time will tell, of course and fingers crossed it does but we are still talking about exceptions.
Honest question to someone, how long is the project before the clubs wants to see results?
 

BFC Academy

A few are missing the point I am trying to make... IT'S NOT ABOUT BRENTFORD, IT'S ABOUT THE SYSTEM IN GENERAL.
Bleedin hell...
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
Another one who can't read... I did not say Brentfords academy was any less that QPRs etc. I simply asked a question and he answered it. I did not disagree with it as he is probably right with the examples he quoted.

Take your Brentford glasses off. It's not about BFC it's a discussion about academies in general. They don't work and give back anywhere near what they take out.
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You said does Brentford's academy have a better reputation than any others?

You was told by someone who's been involved in our academy it does.

Don't backtrack and spin it as the usual Rose Tinted brigade which seems to be the stock answer to anyone who has a 'positive' view these days.

:wave:
 

BFC Academy

If you read anything about Matthew Benham, his history with NextGen, the Milk Cup and his investment in the Brentford Academy (which is the only one most Bees fans know anything about), then you would know his commitment to the system and youth development in general. He must have a personal interest to have committed so much time and money, mainly prior to his take-over of our club, but his investment cannot be purely altruistic. He's in a position to know.

There is a continuous issue with the development of English players, particularly with technical skills, and, although instant gratification culture and the money washing around the Premier League may be large contributory factors, we can't just give up.
 

BFC Academy

Doovster said:
You said does Brentford's academy have a better reputation than any others?

You was told by someone who's been involved in our academy it does.

Don't backtrack and spin it as the usual Rose Tinted brigade which seems to be the stock answer to anyone who has a 'positive' view these days.

:wave:
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What a plank, i have already answered you.. Nobody is back tracking.. READ it again.
 

BFC Academy

jlove said:
If you read anything about Matthew Benham, his history with NextGen, the Milk Cup and his investment in the Brentford Academy (which is the only one most Bees fans know anything about), then you would know his commitment to the system and youth development in general. He must have a personal interest to have committed so much time and money, mainly prior to his take-over of our club, but his investment cannot be purely altruistic. He's in a position to know.

There is a continuous issue with the development of English players, particularly with technical skills, and, although instant gratification culture and the money washing around the Premier League may be large contributory factors, we can't just give up.
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I agree with the current academy system clubs have a choice.. Try and do it right (which for the thicko's on here) I think BFC are doing..
Let's play devils advocate here for a second..
Clubs will tell you it's not about the results at youth level.. Yes it is!
Take the development responsibility away from the clubs who all have an their own agenda and give it to the FA. Let the FA run regional development centres where they take kids up to 16 years.. Clubs then select players from that pool for youth teams and upwards.
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
A few are missing the point I am trying to make... IT'S NOT ABOUT BRENTFORD, IT'S ABOUT THE SYSTEM IN GENERAL.
Bleedin hell...
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The system in general needs time to improve, that isnt happening overnight. at least teams in this country are getting their acts together which may bring about long term results. as i've posted on over threads we are so far behind europe its pitiful, hopefully these academies produce a better class of player for the sake of English football as a whole. Beyond the academies there may be well be a real problem at 'grass roots level' with youth training, maybe the fa need to invest some of the millions they have banked improving and standardising it.
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
Take the development responsibility away from the clubs who all have an their own agenda and give it to the FA. Let the FA run regional development centres where they take kids up to 16 years.. Clubs then select players from that pool for youth teams and upwards.
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I really wouldn't trust the FA to arrange a bun-fight in a bakery. They can provide guidelines and produce nice badges but it is those 'on the ground' that are the only ones who will get things done. There is nothing that is solved by centralisation, especially youth development by a has-beens' club.
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
I agree with the current academy system clubs have a choice.. Try and do it right (which for the thicko's on here) I think BFC are doing..
Let's play devils advocate here for a second..
Clubs will tell you it's not about the results at youth level.. Yes it is!
Take the development responsibility away from the clubs who all have an their own agenda and give it to the FA. Let the FA run regional development centres where they take kids up to 16 years.. Clubs then select players from that pool for youth teams and upwards.
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On the 30th August 2011, your post #258. You stated that it's not about results. You are now saying it is. What's changed your mind ?
 

BFC Academy

readingbee said:
On the 30th August 2011, your post #258. You stated that it's not about results. You are now saying it is. What's changed your mind ?
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It should not be about results but the truth is it is at club level. I have not changed my mind..
Ose will be under pressure to produce winning teams at all levels..
 

BFC Academy

jlove said:
I really wouldn't trust the FA to arrange a bun-fight in a bakery. They can provide guidelines and produce nice badges but it is those 'on the ground' that are the only ones who will get things done. There is nothing that is solved by centralisation, especially youth development by a has-beens' club.
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You have a pount, the FA dont exactly have a good track record on the development front but we could substitute them with a neutral body funded by the FA.
 

BFC Academy

Houghton Bee said:
The system in general needs time to improve, that isnt happening overnight. at least teams in this country are getting their acts together which may bring about long term results. as i've posted on over threads we are so far behind europe its pitiful, hopefully these academies produce a better class of player for the sake of English football as a whole. Beyond the academies there may be well be a real problem at 'grass roots level' with youth training, maybe the fa need to invest some of the millions they have banked improving and standardising it.
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Finally a sensible post.. Fingers crossed the clubs do get their acts together and the system produces some quality. I personally have my doubts but lets hope in 5 years time, we start to see some home develped talent getting in the first team and staying there..
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
Take the development responsibility away from the clubs who all have an their own agenda and give it to the FA. Let the FA run regional development centres where they take kids up to 16 years.. Clubs then select players from that pool for youth teams and upwards.
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I believe Trevor Brooking advocated this about fifteen years ago following another England tournament failure. His quote was along the lines of; putting clubs in charge of youth development is akin to putting a fox in charge of the chicken coup.
 

BFC Academy

Bumble Bee said:
It should not be about results but the truth is it is at club level. I have not changed my mind..
Ose will be under pressure to produce winning teams at all levels..
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Sorry, You have changed your mind. You clearly state in your post in 2011 that its not about results, you now say it is.

So what has changed your mind? Just interested, not having a pop.

You also demonstrate a lack of knowledge what the FA are doing at grass routes level.
 
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