Excuses Excuses!

[West Ealing Bee]

"Our season was over" might be a bit strong, but he's definitely got a point. Price went on to score a lot of goals the rest of that season, and the season after as I remember - and more importantly he was making a big difference to our side and our play (cf. the away game against Reading).

When he left, under those circumstances it was a blow not only to the side on the pitch and their potential performances, it also sent a message (internal and external) about our ambitions and the way the club was being run. Not only to the fans, but to Coppell, the players etc.

Price not staying made a big difference.

Utter rubbish IMHO.

We missed out on automatic promotion by 11 minutes. If he had stayed Sidwell might not have come. Who would have been the greater loss?

Spot on.

If someone points to the sale of Mahon costing us promotion I might go with it but Price was more than adequately replaced.

 

[beeeehive]

Price was a big loss, Sidwell was a massive gain, both would have been better

 

[beeeehive]

If someone points to the sale of Mahon costing us promotion I might go with it

I couldn't believe it when we sold Mahon, I was so :mad1:

I hope in future when we're pushing for promotion we keep our players for the rest of the season

 

[Luton Bee]

I hope in future when we're pushing for promotion .......

It won't be a worry for a long, long time!

 

[KGB]

I think that the phrase 'Utter Rubbish' is way over the top, WEB. One of Price's last kicks in a Brentford shirt was to score the winning goal at Reading in one of the best away performances I've seen in 50 years of support. A week later he was gone!!

SS was in due course a fine signing for us, but if you remember he took some time to settle in and was not actually that impressive when being played out of position on the right wing.

Price was/is not as good a player as SS, but at the time he was 'on fire' and his energy & enthusiasm fitted into our setup perfectly - he was a big miss for us.

 

[West Ealing Bee]

I think that the phrase 'Utter Rubbish' is way over the top, WEB. One of Price's last kicks in a Brentford shirt was to score the winning goal at Reading in one of the best away performances I've seen in 50 years of support. A week later he was gone!!

SS was in due course a fine signing for us, but if you remember he took some time to settle in and was not actually that impressive when being played out of position on the right wing.

Price was/is not as good a player as SS, but at the time he was 'on fire' and his energy & enthusiasm fitted into our setup perfectly - he was a big miss for us.

Perhaps a little over the top but I get tired of revisionist history :shrug:

He was playing well but, let's remember, was playing for his future in the game and at right back. I think that goal at Reading, and it was a great moment don't get me wrong, has led to him being remembered a little more fondly than usual, plus the fact that he tends to play well against us.

I'm not suggesting he wasn't a big miss but I don't reckon anyone was saying "crikey we could do with Jason Price now" when Rowlands and Sidwell were awesome in the last few weeks of the season and to suggest otherwise is, I submit, revisionist rubbish.

 

[sussexb]

Utter rubbish IMHO.



Spot on.

If someone points to the sale of Mahon costing us promotion I might go with it but Price was more than adequately replaced.

I wasn't saying Price going alone "cost us promotion" - as for me, you can never put an entire season's outcome down to just one decision or incident. However, for me, IMO, etc. etc. Price going was a negative impact on our season - and when you are that close to automatic promotion every little thing contributes. How major or not a factor his departure was is a moot point to a certain extent - but I think it's "utter rubbish" to say that it had no effect at all.

anyway, slightly pointless argument, all about opinions and all that......

 

[West Ealing Bee]

How major or not a factor his departure was is a moot point to a certain extent

I think we can agree on that

 

[KGB]

Not revisionist as far as I'm concerned. I was certainly saying it at the end of the season when we had lost Mahon & had Rowlands carrying an injury which ultimately, along with injuries to BB & DP, severely dented our auto & playoff chances. We also lost Evans for a significant period, as I remember.

 

[Stanley]

Don't tell me you want another "invester" like the previous owner of the football club, do you?
I will ask you this - what would happen to QPR if the new owners decided to pull the plug and request all the monies owed to them? Where would they be if that happened???........ I dont think they are supporters of the football club so this could really happen sooner rather than later, given their current league position!!!!

Sadly football supporters are always seduced by people with bags of money and see them as saviours when most of the time these "Saviours" are only in it for their egos and how much they will eventually make out of it all. The word "investment" in football clubs is one of the most misused phrases there is, no doubt many of the trolls down the road think Ecclestone has just given them £14m without any strings!!

Despite the fact that we have been close to being put out of existence twice by such shining knights I find it depressing that some would still hand over our beloved (if ragged) club to anybody who would flash the cash.

Perhaps we should remember why BU was formed in the first place and would we actually be still here without it?

 

[beeeehive]

It won't be a worry for a long, long time!

As long as we're dwelling on the last 18 months and looking for scapegoats I agree

Now's the time to stop biatching and give the lads time to settle and build from the ground up.

My prediction is a rocky time up until the end of December and then we'll start to find form and stability for the last 4\5 months of the season, build on that in the summer and challenge next season. This of course will happen after Butcher has quit and Andy is the new gaffer

If we stay sensible and patient this season we'll come good next season, we just need to show a bit of faith in what we have as lets be honest, it's all we can afford.


Believe

 

[sussexb]

As long as we're dwelling on the last 18 months and looking for scapegoats I agree

Now's the time to stop biatching and give the lads time to settle and build from the ground up.

My prediction is a rocky time up until the end of December and then we'll start to find form and stability for the last 4\5 months of the season, build on that in the summer and challenge next season. This of course will happen after Butcher has quit and Andy is the new gaffer

If we stay sensible and patient this season we'll come good next season, we just need to show a bit of faith in what we have as lets be honest, it's all we can afford.


Believe

I agree with your overall point - but the problem for me, and a lot of people I think is the following:

a) with the way that the club is being run, and the money that is being lost hand over fist, we are not making sacrifices for good reason, we are just hiring a cheaper and worse band to play while the ship goes down.

b) is it really all we can afford? We can no longer harp on about the "lowest budget in the division" cos it's not true anymore - and also TB's signings have been difficult to fathom at times. For example - why have we got Brown on the bench when he's reportedly on big money? Why have we signed Mackie when we're already got Heywood in contract, who's surely adequate at this level? Why have we signed Shakes when he's a Peters clone? Why have we got a LB on loan when Tillen's still on our books? I know his confidence is shattered, and he's not the best, but I can't believe he couldn't do a job...
And most importantly, why have we got so many midfielders and so few strikers?

For me, the playing budget has been mishandled (again), and the club is still leaking money like Northern Rock...

 

[letsallgotolourdes]

Investors?

So how did Mr Benham's investment come about or does he not count as a investor. I've no idea how wealthy he is but he has so far put in about £4m, if we were to find someone to put in £8m and pay off all the current investors loans. Would we better off or still in debt to £8m?

I think what you are looking for is a sugar daddy. I'll think you'll find out that even Abramovich will not turn out to be one of them.

I'm talking about investors outside of the club, unless of course there's another Mr. Benham in the wings of griffin park, which I very much doubt. Why is it when anyone mentions outside investors, people throw up the same old tired arguments/words- sugar daddy-ripped off-nobody is going to invest- nobody is going to invest without stripping the club bare. At the risk of repeating myself surely we've got a board so they can properly vet any Potential outside investors and lay down certain restrictions but then having said that with their track record, a consortium led by Dave W£bb, Nick Leeson and the ghost of Robert Maxwell would be in with a shout.

 

[GP200]

.................overseen by Northern Rock.................

 

[Brentford_till_die]

Just saying when we let Price go our season went down

 

[North London Bee]

Utter rubbish IMHO.



Spot on.

If someone points to the sale of Mahon costing us promotion I might go with it but Price was more than adequately replaced.

3 main playing reasons for not being promoted

1. sale of Mahon

2. sale of Gibbs

3. not permitting Coppell to sign a loan striker on deadline day which meant BBB played on one leg for the rest of the season and only scored 1 more goal - an own goal at Cardiff

 

[Edmundo]

It's all very well saying that the supporters' trust model has failed, but we simply don't know what the situation would be now if BU hadn't taken over the club.

Mistakes have been made, but they happen at other clubs too. Remember that Barcelona is owned by its supporters before you write off the entire model of supporter ownership.

Finally, I would suggest that the proper supporter-owned/controlled model has yet to be tried at Brentford and the BU vehicle has been used by certain people to achieve certain ends (personal and collective) that they feel are more important than a truly transparent, democratic form of governership of the club.

 

[Edmundo]

3 main playing reasons for not being promoted

1. sale of Mahon

2. sale of Gibbs

3. not permitting Coppell to sign a loan striker on deadline day which meant BBB played on one leg for the rest of the season and only scored 1 more goal - an own goal at Cardiff

Nail on head.

 

[KGB]

Agree with NLB as ever but would add that Powell & Rowlands were both playing through injury as well. I've always said that a relatively small investment in loans around deadline day would probably have got us up.

I still also believe that the loss of Price cost us dearly for the reasons given by SussexB above. Just compare the results prior to him leaving with those immediately after he left, & that middle third of the season was actually very poor (3 wins out of 13?). At the time, he was not only the last piece in the jigsaw but also extra cover that we badly needed. Sidwell was brought in to cover for Evans injury & the return of Rowlands coincided with Mahon leaving. It would have strengthened us considerably to have had JP (in place of a raw Steven Hunt or even covering for Dobson!) and Gibbs on hand at that time.

 

[Luton Bee]

It's all very well saying that the supporters' trust model has failed, but we simply don't know what the situation would be now if BU hadn't taken over the club.

Equally, we don't know what would have happened had we been sold onto outsiders instead of BU though If we had been sold on and ended up where we are now would you be happy?

Mistakes have been made, but they happen at other clubs too. Remember that Barcelona is owned by its supporters before you write off the entire model of supporter ownership.

Yes we know the lines by now, mistakes have been made, lessons learnt, lines drawn under etc. etc.

Barcelona is not a fans owned club in the same way Ed and I suspect you know that.

Finally, I would suggest that the proper supporter-owned/controlled model has yet to be tried at Brentford and the BU vehicle has been used by certain people to achieve certain ends (personal and collective) that they feel are more important than a truly transparent, democratic form of governership of the club.

Isn't that what they all used to say about communism and the USSR when it was pointed out to have failed? By the way, what does a truly transparent and democratic form of governorship mean exactly?

 

[Harry Butler]

As long as we're dwelling on the last 18 months and looking for scapegoats I agree
I'M not digging you out or anything BUT based on what do you make this pediction?This is the worst team/s i have ever seen at Brentford(since 1976) and it aint getting better is it?This side is blow away in the wind light on tallent so now we are hoping T.B is some sort of tactical heavy weight and well ...i dont see it.Now's the time to stop biatching and give the lads time to settle and build from the ground up.

My prediction is a rocky time up until the end of December and then we'll start to find form and stability for the last 4\5 months of the season, build on that in the summer and challenge next season. This of course will happen after Butcher has quit and Andy is the new gaffer

If we stay sensible and patient this season we'll come good next season, we just need to show a bit of faith in what we have as lets be honest, it's all we can afford.


Believe

 

[Gee Bee]

I'm talking about investors outside of the club, unless of course there's another Mr. Benham in the wings of griffin park, which I very much doubt. Why is it when anyone mentions outside investors, people throw up the same old tired arguments/words- sugar daddy-ripped off-nobody is going to invest- nobody is going to invest without stripping the club bare. At the risk of repeating myself surely we've got a board so they can properly vet any Potential outside investors and lay down certain restrictions but then having said that with their track record, a consortium led by Dave W£bb, Nick Leeson and the ghost of Robert Maxwell would be in with a shout.

Mr Benham had no connection with the club or Bu at the time he decided to loan money. He was a supporter who hadn't been to a game in years and read of our plight via a BU reps article in a newspaper. therefore he is an outside investor. As is Herting, Rogers, Jones & Bird.
Was Noades an outside investor and what did he do to the club?
Investors tend to want to see a return on their funds, what does BFC offer to get a return? Oh yes real estate value!!!
Any other ideas why investors might want to invest?

 

[Mr Cynical]

3 main playing reasons for not being promoted

1. sale of Mahon

2. sale of Gibbs

3. not permitting Coppell to sign a loan striker on deadline day which meant BBB played on one leg for the rest of the season and only scored 1 more goal - an own goal at Cardiff

Agree with most of that, but sale of Gibbs???

 

[German Bee]

Agree with most of that, but sale of Gibbs???

Gibbs was the morale booster,not the greatest of players but,He left us for a higher league with Barnsley don`t forget.Didn´t play much though.The manager who brought him in left and etc.....

 

[abee]

Mr Benham had no connection with the club or Bu at the time he decided to loan money. He was a supporter who hadn't been to a game in years and read of our plight via a BU reps article in a newspaper. therefore he is an outside investor. As is Herting, Rogers, Jones & Bird.
Was Noades an outside investor and what did he do to the club?
Investors tend to want to see a return on their funds, what does BFC offer to get a return? Oh yes real estate value!!!
Any other ideas why investors might want to invest?

I have never supported the BU term "investor" and would have preferred "patron" or "financial supporter" instead perhaps. There is absolutely nothing that the "investors" get by way of "return" either now or in the future. As good as it gets is that our original loans are repaid in devalued pounds having also forfeited loss of interest for however many years. Yes I have a right to a seat on the BFC board which I refused from the outset as in my judgement the structure that Bees United had put together would invite disaster both on and off the field and I wanted no part of it. However I was lucky enough to have talked David Heath into doing it and it took David several weeks of heartsearching before he finally agreed. I am not being wise after the event; I restructure and turn around businesses (mostly large groups) for a living and if ever a business was gonna crash and burn both on and off the field under the new ownership and management it was BFC. Anyway I've done that to death and just posted to say that of course you are right........there is no "investment" other than pandering to the egos of people who have either made a pile of dosh in their brilliant business careers but prefer spending other peoples or who actually haven't made anything very much in the way of hard cash in which case I won't take lectures from them on how they believe BFC a failing small business should be run.

It's different for Ecclestone as he is prepared to lob in a reported £25million as an initial "investment" to kick start QPR and is only one promotion away from the riches of the Premiership...........and one season there is all he will need to get his dosh back and more.

One question..........if Ecclestone had pitched up at a BU board meeting with a cheque for £25million and said that he wanted to play around with a football club would he have been sent packing 'cos he doesn't fit in with our "new model" so he can sling his hook down to Shepherds Bush where they're not so fussy about "new models" and where as far as I know there is not one example of the "new model" that can be shown to be working.

God my head hurts this morning.....now see what you've done to my week-end...

 

[Gee Bee]

It's different for Ecclestone as he is prepared to lob in a reported £25million as an initial "investment" to kick start QPR and is only one promotion away from the riches of the Premiership...........and one season there is all he will need to get his dosh back and more.

That is the reality. The current large investors are not looking outside the Premier & Championship in the main as they know that a season in the Premier will get their return. Only the bigger clubs in the lower leagues such as Forest & Leeds will likely attract any substantial investors. Others who have invested in smaller clubs, I'm convinced have other alternative ideas of eventually getting their money back.

 

[wayfarer172]

Oooooooh Abee,you do have a way with words.
Excuse my impertinence and thickness, but what would be your veiws on how to save this wonderful football club of ours before it goes to the dogs?

 

[VTG]

I restructure and turn around businesses (mostly large groups) for a living and if ever a business was gonna crash and burn both on and off the field under the new ownership and management it was BFC.

Why did you put money in then? Was it a simple case of heart ruling head for once?

 

[abee]

Why did you put money in then? Was it a simple case of heart ruling head for once?

Because I was asked to in March 2005 when the original idea was that four investors should put in £250k each. That fell by the wayside but I gave my word and I don't make a virtue out of keeping it. At the time the club was gonna be run at break-even under Bees United ownership and my own view both then and now was that the opportunities were lost back in 2003 when we were being told how well the club was being run under MacGlashan's executive stewardship. My beliefs on where the club was headed are well recorded on here (see abee v. larrysigny and others passim). Here I go again but the short answer to your question is that I had no belief in the "model" when I wrote my cheque out but felt it better to give them the chance to **** up than spend the next God knows how many years being told that it would all have come good if only certain individuals had kept their promises and put monies in. I have virtually no communication with Bees United and the simple truth is that a majority of the Bees United board believe that the model is running spiffingly, that we have an outstanding and professional BFC board efficiently chaired and with excellent executive management.

I don't and I have posted before on how I believe it should have been structured and why.

Any suggestion of "breaking even" is now just filed under "aspirations" and I happen to believe in business that if you are given every opportunity to achieve your "aspirations" and you don't do it then you step aside and own up to an honourable failure.

 

[Banana]

IOne question..........if Ecclestone had pitched up at a BU board meeting with a cheque for £25million and said that he wanted to play around with a football club would he have been sent packing 'cos he doesn't fit in with our "new model" so he can sling his hook down to Shepherds Bush where they're not so fussy about "new models" and where as far as I know there is not one example of the "new model" that can be shown to be working.

He would be refused admittance unless he had notified the Secretary 24 hours in advance

However if he had knocked on our door then I would expect that BU would stick to the goal of protecting the long-term future of the club. In my view that doesn't necessarily mean having to have a majority shareholding in the club.

 

[Gee Bee]

a consortium led by Dave W£bb, Nick Leeson and the ghost of Robert Maxwell would be in with a shout.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/7006532.stm

Don't forget this bloke.

 

[German Bee]

I wonder whether Patterson would take the job now???