Formation Chat

[swr22]

Hey everyone, I was thinking about our formation, Ted Knutson's recent article about quality shots, and our personnel changes: the question I guess we have to answer is why are we giving away so many quality shots and not getting enough good ones ourselves, considering some of our great passing play and time of possession. It would seem like we could have lots of hypotheses which might be worth exploring or discussing:

* Are our central midfielders adequately stopping central shots in and around our penalty area (statistically, the most likely to be scored), or do we place too much emphasis on passing stats compared to looking at who does best breaking up play? This speaks to the physical presence in CM possibly.
* When our wingers cut inside, do they do so enough? Are they taking the right kinds of shots when they do? Seems like Josh Clarke does look to play one-twos and cut in to a central, shooting position, but do Watkins, Theobold, Jozefzoon etc?
* Is Maupay making different kind of runs or movements to when we had Gray and Hogan? Rather than run in behind or down the channels, is he more likely to have his back to goal and not get a shot in?
* Is Romaine or Yennaris getting past the striker enough or having a pop from the edge of the box in order to maximise our scoring chances?
* Is there a better formation with our current squad to maximise shots in these areas and minimise those against us?

Basically, what is going wrong with this stat and what, if anything, can we do to improve it? Or is this the wrong measure entirely? Or will it come right over time as the squad gets to better know each other? If it's coaching, then that raises the question over whether another coach could get more out of what we have...

 

[jlove]

You've entitled this "Formation Chat" but there seem to be no chat about formations, only a question. It seems to be about players and we've probably done that to death recently.

 

[8 Bee]

You've entitled this "Formation Chat" but there seem to be no chat about formations, only a question. It seems to be about players and we've probably done that to death recently.

I disagree. The thread opens up the debate as to what is expected of players in the position allocated to them, is it appropriate, potentially effective and are the players doing what is expected of them.

For example, shooting opportunities are few and far between these days because of well organised defences. I do feel that our players sometimes look for a pass rather than a shot whereas the opposition are more prepared to unleash a shot whenever a gap appears. Dare I say it, but Sawyers is possibly one of the chief 'culprits' in this respect. We know he has an accurate and powerful shot but it seems that his mindset is not to employ it as often as he should. His fellow central midfielders seem similarly reluctant to pull the trigger - hence their goal tally.

 

[rhbee]

I disagree. The thread opens up the debate as to what is expected of players in the position allocated to them, is it appropriate, potentially effective and are the players doing what is expected of them.

For example, shooting opportunities are few and far between these days because of well organised defences. I do feel that our players sometimes look for a pass rather than a shot whereas the opposition are more prepared to unleash a shot whenever a gap appears. Dare I say it, but Sawyers is possibly one of the chief 'culprits' in this respect. We know he has an accurate and powerful shot but it seems that his mindset is not to employ it as often as he should. His fellow central midfielders seem similarly reluctant to pull the trigger - hence their goal tally.

I understand your point about reluctance to pull the trigger. The thing is this season we've seen lots of defending teams just put lots of bodies between ball and goal, meaning the chances of scoring from outside the box are even smaller than usual. Sawyers, and other midfielders, know that shot quality is greater the closer you get to the goal (pretty obvious I know) and we seem to have sacrificed shot numbers for shot quality. Although it doesn't seem to be working. Possibly (as Knutson mentions) due to variance, and possibly down to our own shoddy finishing. Our expected goals numbers in attack are in fact quite high, and our numbers at the back are also decent. The thing is variance plays against us, giving up a moderate amount of good quality shots to only shooting a low amount of high quality shots (and missing) or, at earlier times in the season (Sheff Utd) shooting a high amount of low quality shots.

 

[Mr Cynical]

Main reason for me is that we're not moving the ball quick enough so by the time we get into the box the defence has had time to regroup. On the odd occasions we've played quick one touch passes through we've found space. Take too long, take a touch or there's no-one moving or in space then we end up shooting from outside the box or inside a congested one.

Part of this is unfamiliarity with basically a new front 3 but could also be confidence as players are wary of trying things or making instinctive passes into space as they're scared of losing possession.. It'll come once we've got a win under our belts and line up is more settled. Also getting Sergi and Vibe back will help with this as Sergi is very direct and Vibe is excellent at drawing defenders away with his runs off the ball.

 

[Billy Hunt]

OAKE

 

[No_sting_Bee]

I don't think it's the shooting from distance is the issue its yes we have lots of shots but they are at accute angles AND at a bit of distance. We are not creating chances near and central . We try to resolve this by walking it in but defences know this and it does not help the when we break it all slows up about 20m out. Need to have wingers that go to the line and cut the ball back into the box with someone running through or put in a firm low cross from the by line.

 

[swr22]

You've entitled this "Formation Chat" but there seem to be no chat about formations, only a question. It seems to be about players and we've probably done that to death recently.

I suppose it is about both, and I am sure those not bored will contribute.

 

[swr22]

I disagree. The thread opens up the debate as to what is expected of players in the position allocated to them, is it appropriate, potentially effective and are the players doing what is expected of them.

For example, shooting opportunities are few and far between these days because of well organised defences. I do feel that our players sometimes look for a pass rather than a shot whereas the opposition are more prepared to unleash a shot whenever a gap appears. Dare I say it, but Sawyers is possibly one of the chief 'culprits' in this respect. We know he has an accurate and powerful shot but it seems that his mindset is not to employ it as often as he should. His fellow central midfielders seem similarly reluctant to pull the trigger - hence their goal tally.

Agreed. Would we do better with two up-top and someone looking for a pass down the channels? Seems like Hogan and Gray provided such a threat with their pace that defences would drop back further, which also allowed midfielders to probably get closer to goal before they had to shoot, as defenders were worried about getting in behind.

 

[swr22]

Main reason for me is that we're not moving the ball quick enough so by the time we get into the box the defence has had time to regroup. On the odd occasions we've played quick one touch passes through we've found space. Take too long, take a touch or there's no-one moving or in space then we end up shooting from outside the box or inside a congested one.

Part of this is unfamiliarity with basically a new front 3 but could also be confidence as players are wary of trying things or making instinctive passes into space as they're scared of losing possession.. It'll come once we've got a win under our belts and line up is more settled. Also getting Sergi and Vibe back will help with this as Sergi is very direct and Vibe is excellent at drawing defenders away with his runs off the ball.

Agreed with this. I do think we don't pull defenders out of position as much as we could. Is this a player/coaching/or formation issue? Could we do this better?

 

[BerksBee]

Main reason for me is that we're not moving the ball quick enough so by the time we get into the box the defence has had time to regroup. On the odd occasions we've played quick one touch passes through we've found space. Take too long, take a touch or there's no-one moving or in space then we end up shooting from outside the box or inside a congested one.

Part of this is unfamiliarity with basically a new front 3 but could also be confidence as players are wary of trying things or making instinctive passes into space as they're scared of losing possession.. It'll come once we've got a win under our belts and line up is more settled. Also getting Sergi and Vibe back will help with this as Sergi is very direct and Vibe is excellent at drawing defenders away with his runs off the ball.

Yep, this is spot on in my opinion.

I asked myself the question: What's really changed between now and what we were doing at the end of last season? We were playing some of the best football we've ever played at the end of last season, or at least from January onwards, so what's been the difference?

Apart from the changes at the back, Egan, replacing Dean, Dalsgaard replacing Colin, neither of which will have a big impact on us scoring goals and going forward Dalsagaard looks every bit as good as Colin, the back midfield 3 are unchanged. So what's really changed? The front 3. Vibe and Jota scored 25 goals between them last season. We now have a very inexperienced front 3, ages of which are 19-22. They're young, they're inexperienced and prone to inconsistency and suspect decision making. We need some experience in that front three and the only one we really have with any, is Vibe.

I honestly don't know what the answer is beyond patience with them as they get up to speed with the pace and intensity of the Championship.

If I was Smith I'd experiment with the player positions in that front three, because Maupay leading the line as a No. 9 simply isn't working. He's not working hard enough off the ball, making runs, creating space, moving defenders that that position requires. For that reason, I'd try Watkins in the centre, he has more football nous and instinct than Maupay, with Maupay out wide on the left and Archibald/Clarke on the right. Josefzoon I have little time for, as an impact sub and fresh pair of legs maybe but not as as a starter he simply doesn't do enough.

 

[BerksBee]

Agreed with this. I do think we don't pull defenders out of position as much as we could. Is this a player/coaching/or formation issue? Could we do this better?

It's not a formation issue, it's a wrong person in the wrong position issue. Maupay isn't doing it. For whatever reason, inexperience, wrong style of player not understanding his role and responsibility? Whatever it is, Maupay seems to see himself as a scorer of goals, what he doesn't seem to see is, those goals will come from any one of that front three and all of them have to work together to create and score them. It's a collective effort, not one person's responsibility.

 

[BerksBee]

Would we do better with two up-top and someone looking for a pass down the channels?

No, we don't play that way. We are in effect playing with 3 up front, width comes from the two wing backs, not necessarily the two attacking midfielders either side of the striker. They compress in as the wing backs overlap them to create the width.

 

[Bush Tuckerman]

Main reason for me is that we're not moving the ball quick enough so by the time we get into the box the defence has had time to regroup. On the odd occasions we've played quick one touch passes through we've found space. Take too long, take a touch or there's no-one moving or in space then we end up shooting from outside the box or inside a congested one.

Part of this is unfamiliarity with basically a new front 3 but could also be confidence as players are wary of trying things or making instinctive passes into space as they're scared of losing possession.. It'll come once we've got a win under our belts and line up is more settled. Also getting Sergi and Vibe back will help with this as Sergi is very direct and Vibe is excellent at drawing defenders away with his runs off the ball.

I agree...we appear to be valuing possession over penetration. We often look like we want to be in full control of the ball before we set up an attack, which allows the opposition time to get players behind the ball.

 

[jlove]

I disagree. The thread opens up the debate as to what is expected of players in the position allocated to them, is it appropriate, potentially effective and are the players doing what is expected of them.

For example, shooting opportunities are few and far between these days because of well organised defences. I do feel that our players sometimes look for a pass rather than a shot whereas the opposition are more prepared to unleash a shot whenever a gap appears. Dare I say it, but Sawyers is possibly one of the chief 'culprits' in this respect. We know he has an accurate and powerful shot but it seems that his mindset is not to employ it as often as he should. His fellow central midfielders seem similarly reluctant to pull the trigger - hence their goal tally.

So, it's not about formation but players, as I wrote. None of the subsequent posts mention formation.

 

[North London Bee]

The formation is fine and suits what we have.

We simply lack the ingenuity pace and craft provided by Canos Jota and Vibe.

Until we get they level of ability upfront we will struggle to score as we lack experience and nous.

 

[sonofabee]

The formation is fine and suits what we have.

We simply lack the ingenuity pace and craft provided by Canos Jota and Vibe.

Until we get they level of ability upfront we will struggle to score as we lack experience and nous.

We've lost the "special" at the moment, Sergi and Ollie are capable of it when fit and in the right position?

 

[Invipai]

I wouldn't mind seeing a return to the 4-2-3-1 with Watkins in the no.10 role, with Clarke and Josef either side (until Canos comes back and replaces Josef). Moko and Woods for the 2 DMF positions. I think that would suit Watkins better and may create more, although it's a little harsh on Sawyers who has been very good this year.

 

[Bangor Bee]

I wouldn't mind seeing a return to the 4-2-3-1 with Watkins in the no.10 role, with Clarke and Josef either side (until Canos comes back and replaces Josef). Moko and Woods for the 2 DMF positions. I think that would suit Watkins better and may create more, although it's a little harsh on Sawyers who has been very good this year.

The option you describe may indeed bring more goals, which is a 'must', and could be worth a try. However, in an ideal world I would prefer a formation that accommodates all of our better players, and that clearly includes Sawyers. Offering both Sawyers and Watkins central roles would, however, require a major rethink on formation and to be honest I can't see that happening at the moment. Almost certainly Watkins will continue in the wide position, occasionally alternating with Sawyers or replacing him in the middle if he's having an off day.

 

[shouldbee]

Do you get the players to suit your preferred formation or do you play a formation that suits your players ?............

 

[Invipai]

Do you get the players to suit your preferred formation or do you play a formation that suits your players ?............

The former, but if that doesn't materialise then the latter.

 

[North London Bee]

The latter at club level, the former for international teams.

 

[BFC1997]

Formation is a tough topic to discuss because it's difficult to understand. Players all have slightly different attributes - and therefore slightly different roles. You can loosely follow a 4-4-2, 4-3-3 or whatever, but at this level, the variations of each formation differ so much. You can't squeeze the number of different roles players have in the modern game into 11 'positions'.

For Brentford though, the blueprint is fairly clear.

- Wing backs
- Three central midfield players - at least one of which comes deep to act as a third centre half when we are under pressure (how many times has Woods played us out of danger in the box!)
- A single number 9 - with two wide forwards to run off him.

There has, IMO, been a minor difference this season in that our midfield three seems to be deeper and more compact. So we've been using something like a 4-3-2-1. I think it's possible that when we get Lewis/AJ back into the dedicated No 10 position, it may be that we start creating the 'better chances' that Ted Knutson was talking about. We currently don't have a lot of players that believe they can score, and you can tell - we often make one pass too many.

 

[maconleary]

Offering both Sawyers and Watkins central roles would, however, require a major rethink on formation

You could keep the current formation unchanged, and have one of Kamo or Woods holding, with Sawyers and Watkins as the pair ahead of them (Sawyers picking the passes, and Watkins bursting from deep). Watkins looked good there as a sub, but I really don't know if that was a flash in a pan or if he has the skills to prosper there as a regular alternative to Yennaris.

 

[ladbroke]

As someone mentioned above, and subsequent comments following on, we don't seem to get the ball forward quick enough and/or players don't seem quick enough to join in.

Not saying they're others are slow or anything, but I only see Canos, Yennaris, and Woods seemingly the ones that get out quicker than others, and Clarke when playing/positioned further up field. Jozefzoon is quick but I think he is not quick in the mind. Sawyers can, if he switches on, get into good positions but as pointed out above by the time he has got into a good position defenders have regrouped. Not necessarily Sawyers fault but maybe he should get into a different position to assist first and foremost.

In our first season in the Championship we managed to break so quick and be so lethal.
We also had the likes of Gray, Pritchard, Dallas, Judge, Jota etc all busting a gut to break and form an attack.
This season we have (although some are injured) Vibe, Maupay, Canos, Clarke, Sawyers, Watkins and FloJo. Am I missing someone (other than Yennaris and Woods who are more positioned to be in central mid rather than forward players)?
I know you can argue this seasons players are different type of players, but that is the point I am trying to make. The 2014/15 squad were quick and hungry players, whereas 2017/18 are not up to that level (yet).

I personally think we should play a formation that is more to the strength to the players we have and not try and make them fit into the system. Teach them the system, but whilst we are not winning (8 league games without a win is to be honest alarming regardless if we are playing well and outplaying them) we should be mixing things up. I imagine that teams have learnt our system to a T and all know how to counter it. We have no surprises for anyone anymore and I know the phrase "plan B" gets used a lot and laughed at, but we don't have one (and to do Plan A better is rather poor excuse). We keep trying the same stuff and teams keep laughing at us as its not (currently) working.

 

[rhbee]

Beesotted posted on twitter that we'd had the most shots in the entire EFL... Strange that we seem to think we've had very few. What's more lacking is the quality of these shots, as I have mentioned previously, and I think DS and the other coaches and analysts etc are working to sort it out, based on our play.

 

[Gee Bee]

Beesotted posted on twitter that we'd had the most shots in the entire EFL... Strange that we seem to think we've had very few. What's more lacking is the quality of these shots, as I have mentioned previously, and I think DS and the other coaches and analysts etc are working to sort it out, based on our play.

How hard have we worked keepers Johnstone was mom for Villa anyone else?

 

[rhbee]

How hard have we worked keepers Johnstone was mom for Villa anyone else?

The brizzle keeper. Also, as I have mentioned before, teams now tend to be able to and are willing to throw a lot of bodies on the edge of their area to stop us

 

[JANORAK]

Lots of shots are taken, but us fans don't really remember them as many are blocked and/or deflected?

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

Oh, I see! I thought this was going to be about a new craze, an alternative to formation dancing for those who prefer to blether.

 

[rhbee]

Lots of shots are taken, but us fans don't really remember them as many are blocked and/or deflected?

THIS!!!

 

[GP200]

Lots of shots are taken, but us fans don't really remember them as many are blocked and/or deflected?

.............not today!!!!!..........

 

[No_sting_Bee]

I was thinking that we can't afford the way we play. Literally. In that whilst we can find the quality to play a passing game within budget the finishing in the last 1/4 is what's missing and strikers are by far the most expensive. What makes the best so much more expensive than other strikers is goals per attempt. Other champ teams have bigger budgets and can pay for these and therefore they need fewer chances to get goals. We tend to sell ours each year as the lost of that one player reaps so much revenue in return. I get the feeling we need twice as many chances to score same amount of goals.

 

[The Pipe]

I was thinking that we can't afford the way we play. Literally. In that whilst we can find the quality to play a passing game within budget the finishing in the last 1/4 is what's missing and strikers are by far the most expensive. What makes the best so much more expensive than other strikers is goals per attempt. Other champ teams have bigger budgets and can pay for these and therefore they need fewer chances to get goals. We tend to sell ours each year as the lost of that one player reaps so much revenue in return. I get the feeling we need twice as many chances to score same amount of goals.

Ok so just what do you suggest???

MB set a philosophy for the way we play football across all teams from the outset and generally speaking we but players that fit into the style and buy into the way we do things. Same with the coaching staff

Over the past few years we have played some of the best football in my 60 plus years of watching Brentford. Yes we have had a poor start points wise but continue to play a style that is more attractive than most in every division.

Personally I am happy to continue watching our style of play and remain confident that it will eventually click and the results will come and have no wish to see us return to a style where effort is preferred to skill

 

[jlove]

Ok so just what do you suggest???

It reads like the introduction to a dissertation on the price of Championship strikers.

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

Ok so just what do you suggest???

MB set a philosophy for the way we play football across all teams from the outset and generally speaking we but players that fit into the style and buy into the way we do things. Same with the coaching staff

Over the past few years we have played some of the best football in my 60 plus years of watching Brentford. Yes we have had a poor start points wise but continue to play a style that is more attractive than most in every division.

Personally I am happy to continue watching our style of play and remain confident that it will eventually click and the results will come and have no wish to see us return to a style where effort is preferred to skill

I think you're missing his point.
It's not that he dislikes our style of play, its attractiveness, or the way we do things.
He's not saying he's not happy to continue watching it either.
The question is whether, "clicking" or not, we'll always be hamstrung at this point in the league by having to sell a crucial part of the team (those who get goals), just to tread water and pay the bills (because those around and above us at this level can throw money at players like we can't).
I think he's right (and have said similar before).......however the "answer", is ultimately reducing this deficit where we're at such a financial disadvantage. That might be via LR, and all the things it entails, or some real luck where we buy a few attackers who all play like superstars from the first game of the season and we make it into the Prem, etc.

 

[No_sting_Bee]

I think you're missing his point.
It's not that he dislikes our style of play, its attractiveness, or the way we do things.
He's not saying he's not happy to continue watching it either.
The question is whether, "clicking" or not, we'll always be hamstrung at this point in the league by having to sell a crucial part of the team (those who get goals), just to tread water and pay the bills (because those around and above us at this level can throw money at players like we can't).
I think he's right (and have said similar before).......however the "answer", is ultimately reducing this deficit where we're at such a financial disadvantage. That might be via LR, and all the things it entails, or some real luck where we buy a few attackers who all play like superstars from the first game of the season and we make it into the Prem, etc.

This. Plus we may have to adapt the playing style i.e. less passing etc and go direct to get into the prem and then bizarrely go back to the current style that A maybe more effective against similar style teams and B affordable to complement with suitable strikers with tv Money.

 

[BerksBee]

I was thinking that we can't afford the way we play. Literally. In that whilst we can find the quality to play a passing game within budget the finishing in the last 1/4 is what's missing and strikers are by far the most expensive.

Ironically, the opposite is true, the style of football we play has removed the need for expensive goal scoring strikers. Deliberately so, for all the reasons you give—we can't afford them. We've replaced that with a striker who's role is to not only score goals, but help create them for the two attacking midfielders either side.

It's not happening at the moment for a whole variety of reasons (which are discussed at length here and elsewhere) but it isn't just down to the quality of the main striker. Once the side gets back some of its key players, we get some consistency of selection and the players start playing together as a unit and move the ball faster, we should start to see better quality chances being created, rather than the speculative longer range efforts and rushed, snatched at opportunities we're currently seeing.

 

[No_sting_Bee]

I was not specifically thinking about strikers but finishing chances. It is implied that quality of striker would resolve that as its usually their role and where marginally improvements are achieved with big bucks.

 

[No_sting_Bee]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ECWsQFggcMAA&usg=AOvVaw3rMAYQxodkGQxISUt7K795 see conclusion at the end