How Do We Improve?

[North London Bee]

I am abroad and missed yesterday’s game which seemed to exemplify everything good and bad about us.

How can we continually outplay, outshoot, outpossess the opposition and yet throw away so many points and winning positions?

We have finished in the top ten for 4 seasons in a row. Last season we should have finished much higher.

Our league position this season is ridiculous and simply emphasises that for all the mantra about punching above our weight and the size of our budget I feel that we really should be doing far better.

This is not comng from a misguided sense of expectation and entitlement more a cold blooded analysis of the points we have thrown away all season and an understanding of just how good we are - or could be.

Here are some potential root causes:

- individual errors
- over playing at the back
- goalkeeping howlers
- poor marking at set pieces
- lack of clinical finishing
- lack of experience
- lack of leadership

Of course we are restricted by our budget and you could say we have done amazingly well to be where we are but the question I am asking as it looks as though this season might end in more frustration although we still live in eternal optimism of a continued F.A. Cup run is what do we have to do this Sunmer to turn our brilliant football into winning football?

Maybe there is no more we can do and we should just accept what we have now - which is more than ok with me.

But.....,,,

I just look at the top 6 clubs and for all their extra funding I really do not see too many teams that are better than us.

That’s why I’m frustrated. We are close but cannot seem to be able to take that extra step.

Maybe our need to sell our best talent is an insurmountable hurdle but this summer is different.

We will have a large warchest given the massive sums we have brought in, a head coach who is talented and trusted and a bunch of highly talented players.

Some might leave but what can be done to transform us from the best footballing team in the Championship to one that fulfills its massive potential and allows us to leave Griffin Park with a bang?

I’d welcome everyone’s views.

 

[Pauly Paul]

If we're serious about making a promotion push then we need a settled and experienced defence including GK.

We might fluke it with our current philosophy but 2 of our current back three are having their first championship season.

I think Konsa and Jeanvier will be much better next season (like Maupay and Mokotjo) but right now I couldn't say any of Konsa, JJ & Barbet have formed a partnership that you need in central defence.

 

[beebopalula]

We need to learn how to defend well. That's it as far as I'm concerned. Successful teams are consistent and that comes from defending. Frank said as much yesterday. So Thomas spend the rest of the season inculcating the art to give us a springboard for next season.

 

[beebopalula]

If we're serious about making a promotion push then we need a settled and experienced defence including GK.

We might fluke it with our current philosophy but 2 of our current back three are having their first championship season.

I think Konsa and Jeanvier will be much better next season (like Maupay and Mokotjo) but right now I couldn't say any of Konsa, JJ & Barbet have formed a partnership that you need in central defence.

Agree re the goalkeeper. A safe pair of hands is essential.

 

[wanderer paul]

Too many individual errors costing goals against. That’s it. DB, JJ, CM, EK, HD, YB and RH have all made errors. They still play together though and back each other.

We are still creating enough opportunities too. Saves by the keeper, hitting the post or bar is football. No complaints.

Poor misses, like Maupay has suffered - amongst others - does cost points. Take Maupay yesterday, when clean through. His lack of pace showed. His poor control showed. But we have to accept it unless someone wants to spend £20m for a ready made striker........

It’s getting that run of luck going our way for long enough to get us into the top 6 or top 2.

I’m sure every other supporter could say the same re their club.

 

[marvelous007]

Individual mistakes at the back and switching off is costing us. Also, we need more depth in our squad. Apart from Canos we don't have a match winner on the bench. Hopefully we see an improvement in Konsa who was poor yesterday and Bentley. As well as an improvement in some of the development players like Fors and Mads. We need to move Josh on and bring in 2 or 3 players but I agree we should be alot higher in the table.

 

[ruislip bee]

All clubs miss chances and let in stupid goals at some stage. Just look at Villa v Shef Utd. Hardly a decent goal in 6! I guess it's just reducing the instances which makes for a higher league placing.

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

Two things at the moment: give Daniels a run, and go man to man on set pieces to see if that makes a difference. Nothing else. We've been on a great run, so not a lot wrong. But, with promotion gone, and relegation not a threat, no harm in small experiments.

And if going man to man, leave two or three up front at corners to create a bit of space in our box to help this.

 

[Bush Tuckerman]

We need to consider using our Chinese connections to follow this path...

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/47172177

Would surely catapult us into sustainability pretty quickly and allow us to hold onto key players!

 

[Gee Bee]

Picking more points up away by improving defensively maybe by putting an extra midfielder in there.

 

[larrysigny]

I think we all have to take into account the traumas our very young players have experienced this season - death, loss of a head coach etc - and also realise that those now in charge are helping them get over it. See out this season, let our new team have a full run at things - and with the extra experience everyone is getting I'm sure things will be better next season.

There is nothing we supporters can do except encourage - we just have to leave it to the professionals to deal with things . I'm sure they will

 

[grutter]

Nothing on this thread that hasn't been done to death before. You can sum it up with 'a lack of consistency' which is mainly caused by our necessary policy of buying lots of potential and youth and selling on, just as players are settled. As others have said, we might fluke it one year when all the pieces fall into place, but it looks like buying experience is something we're not going to do.

 

[clactonbee]

North London Bee you are not the only one who gets frustrated. I think what happens on the pitch and what happens in the boardroom are two different things.
We know the model that's in place is the correct one . We cant expect Matthew to keep making up the losses every year. But this makes it very difficult to build a team over a long time.
The only thing I do not like is that we will sell any player if another club comes up with the right money. Would we have sold Maupay and Sawyers in January if someone had done this, just after selling Mepham.
We are always re-building but we never get to the finished article because the next year we sell our best. Its a great model for the financial side of the business but not for what happens on the pitch.
I think getting to the Premier is going to be very difficult because of what we do. I hope I am wrong.
On the pitch we are inconsistent. We give too many soft goals away and only coaching will improve this. Our first four seasons in the Championship we have conceded 59,67,65 and 52. Far too many and I think this is where we have to improve.
This may all sound obvious but I think its what holds us back. The management have done a terrific job getting us to where we are. The next step is going to be very difficult.

 

[newarkbee]

I think Thomas frank hit the nail on the head yesterday...when we’re not firing on all cylinders we need to learn to grind out a draw...yesterday we gave forest the initiative by sloppy individual play...but we’ve been unbeaten in 10 previous so wouldn’t overreact...but if we are really serious about going for promotion next season we need better options off the bench than Josh Mc
COYB

 

[magicbees]

Games like yesterday have happened far to often this season. Awful Goalkreping, bad defending and wasteful in the last third. I dont think Bentley has helped what so ever with the defence im sure they dont know what he's going to do next. A vouple of older pros in the team would help for games like yesterday. The squad is so paper thin at the moment games like this will happen, a couplee of players dont perform and we havent got a bench to change it. I would only consider Canos coming on and making a difference at the moment.

 

[TheHairdresser]

Having watched the match on a stream y'day, felt that we just made like-4-like changes that didn't adjust the offensive dynamic on the pitch. Forest basically went two(sometimes 3) on Said as, playing on the left, he was always looking to cut inside onto his right. They realised to nullify us offensively they needed to shutdown our wingers, felt we needed a no10 to play infront of the C/M2 to link directly with NM. I think Canos should've started in place of Watkins, or at the very least replaced him closer to the hr and subbed Said for JM to play in a midfield 3 with Kamo holding. In the brief 10/15mins JM was on the pitch he was able to open up and stretch them defensively with his range of incisive passing. Felt all our play was channelled down the left side which Forest contained comfortably. I think they did their homework and it worked, knew playing on the shoulder of our defenders the direct diagonal ball was opening us up repeatedly, they realistically could have scored 5.

 

[rebus]

Nothing on this thread that hasn't been done to death before. You can sum it up with 'a lack of consistency' which is mainly caused by our necessary policy of buying lots of potential and youth and selling on, just as players are settled. As others have said, we might fluke it one year when all the pieces fall into place, but it looks like buying experience is something we're not going to do.

Close thread.

 

[Frothybaby]

This beginning of this model got us promoted to the Championship.

 

[psg150]

Individual mistakes at the back and switching off is costing us. Also, we need more depth in our squad. Apart from Canos we don't have a match winner on the bench. Hopefully we see an improvement in Konsa who was poor yesterday and Bentley. As well as an improvement in some of the development players like Fors and Mads. We need to move Josh on and bring in 2 or 3 players but I agree we should be alot higher in the table.

We have a very good squad, learning a new system and TFs defensive systems. Bentley is a good keeper having a bad season. That happens. I do agree with the point on bench players. Whilst we do have cover, I wonder if Marcondes and McLeod had been fit and on the bench yesterday whether the result would have been different..

 

[marvelous007]

We have a very good squad, learning a new system and TFs defensive systems. Bentley is a good keeper having a bad season. That happens. I do agree with the point on bench players. Whilst we do have cover, I wonder if Marcondes and McLeod had been fit and on the bench yesterday whether the result would have been different..

I think Marcondes would have been a good option. It's unfortunate we have had quite few injuries .

 

[whyteleafebee76]

There is only one way to guarantee improvement, buy better players who cost £5m, £10m, £20m etc but that is not who we are. We buy what we can afford and develop them, that means we have a young squad who will make mistakes and at other times be amazing. Yesterday was a blip after a good 5-6 weeks so we just have to ride it out and put it right on Wednesday.

The only bit of tinkering I would consider is starting Daniels against Villa. Bentley has been very inconsistent this season and Daniels has improved with his increased game time and probably now deserves a run of starts.

 

[hughbee]

We are now selling players for increasing amounts. That will enable buying better quality.

When we were last promoted, you could tell that we were buying championship players. Now we’re buying even better. The way we’re doing it is by strengthening over time. The rewards are coming magnana.

 

[alexcavell]

Most teams who get promoted from the Championship are very good at doing the basics right. We're better than most sides at the more complicated, intricate things - but we're not good enough with the simple stuff (though since the formation change we've improved).

 

[BeesBloke]

In the summer we need

New goalkeeper too come in as number 1, not a novice but someone with presence who can command his area.


New CB (2 if Barbet goes)
Again must have a physical presence I do feel we have put too much emphasis on ball playing CB’s and have been guilty of needless overplaying at the back. I wasn’t a big fan of Egan but I do think we have missed him this season. Konsa has a lot of potential but needs to defend first and be a footballer second.


New CM x 2
McEachran & Macleod out. Replacements need to be all rounders, hardworking, mobile good passing ability and tough in the tackle. Not easy to find

New Striker or two if Maupay goes.

Disclaimer, I haven’t got the names of these players.

 

[shouldbee]

I feel the way we operate in terms of buying / selling players will make the next step difficult to achieve. Ultimately I think the only solution is for another person / investor or what ever you want to call them come in and inject for money into the club, whether or not MB is open to this I wouldn't know ?. The new stadium will potentially bring in more cash but I can't see how this will be sufficient for us to make the next big step ? If we sign the type of players to make us real promotion contenders they won't come cheap and will want more money than we currently pay, 17,000 crowds probably wouldn't cover this. I'm happy with where we are and wouldn't mind a few more seasons in the Championship, I doubt the owner would agree ?

 

[jlove]

I feel the way we operate in terms of buying / selling players will make the next step difficult to achieve. Ultimately I think the only solution is for another person / investor or what ever you want to call them come in and inject for money into the club, whether or not MB is open to this I wouldn't know ?. The new stadium will potentially bring in more cash but I can't see how this will be sufficient for us to make the next big step ? If we sign the type of players to make us real promotion contenders they won't come cheap and will want more money than we currently pay, 17,000 crowds probably wouldn't cover this. I'm happy with where we are and wouldn't mind a few more seasons in the Championship, I doubt the owner would agree ?

If you look at our figures and the rumoured amounts, then it does seem that we're both paying more for players and paying players more. We've been paying around the £3m mark for first team squad players recently, when we struggled to sell good players at that level only a couple of seasons ago.

There's no instant solution, that might occur with a different ownership structure, but that is a significant risk to our Club that I don't think our owner wants to take.

 

[shouldbee]

If you look at our figures and the rumoured amounts, then it does seem that we're both paying more for players and paying players more. We've been paying around the £3m mark for first team squad players recently, when we struggled to sell good players at that level only a couple of seasons ago.

There's no instant solution, that might occur with a different ownership structure, but that is a significant risk to our Club that I don't think our owner wants to take.

Fair comment. MB has taken us to where we are and nobody should feel unhappy. He will do what's right for him.

 

[WARFIELD BEE]

Individual mistakes at the back and switching off is costing us. Also, we need more depth in our squad. Apart from Canos we don't have a match winner on the bench. Hopefully we see an improvement in Konsa who was poor yesterday and Bentley. As well as an improvement in some of the development players like Fors and Mads. We need to move Josh on and bring in 2 or 3 players but I agree we should be alot higher in the table.

I think we will need to bring in more than 2 or 3, Josh,McCleod,Barbet,Judge,Yennaris,Mepham, all off plus possible other players these will need replacing,
not sure many B team players are ready at the moment.

 

[Taunton Bee]

JM

Having watched the match on a stream y'day, felt that we just made like-4-like changes that didn't adjust the offensive dynamic on the pitch. Forest basically went two(sometimes 3) on Said as, playing on the left, he was always looking to cut inside onto his right. They realised to nullify us offensively they needed to shutdown our wingers, felt we needed a no10 to play infront of the C/M2 to link directly with NM. I think Canos should've started in place of Watkins, or at the very least replaced him closer to the hr and subbed Said for JM to play in a midfield 3 with Kamo holding. In the brief 10/15mins JM was on the pitch he was able to open up and stretch them defensively with his range of incisive passing. Felt all our play was channelled down the left side which Forest contained comfortably. I think they did their homework and it worked, knew playing on the shoulder of our defenders the direct diagonal ball was opening us up repeatedly, they realistically could have scored 5.

JM? Get real. Has been useless since he signed. DOFs don't make many mistakes but him as a replacement for Ryan Woods?

 

[Guildford_Bee]

It’s simple, our model needs to change if we are serious about getting promoted. I’m more than happy with watching us in the championship as it’s great fun and love our style of play. It’s also great watching our young talent develop and improve.

 

[spirebee]

Bentley cost us again yesterday. The CB's are fine, but I think Konsa is prone to mistakes, which you would hope will improve. The one thing I seem to remember us doing well was the early ball to Gray or Hogan to run on to. This doesn't seem to be an option these days, so the opposition build a static wall in front of us, waiting to spoil one of the multitude of passes across the front of their area. Teams didn't give us as much respect before, so would be higher up the pitch, leaving space behind for a Gray or Hogan run.
Seperate to this, we're a bit thin in the squad for defence and CDM positions, but hopefully this will be corrected, as well as the GK area.

 

[alexcavell]

JM? Get real. Has been useless since he signed. DOFs don't make many mistakes but him as a replacement for Ryan Woods?

To be fair, I think Mokotjo was supposed to compete with McEachran for the holding role in the 4-3-3, but McEachran rightly kept hold of the shirt when he and the team were in good form at the start of the season. Unfortunately, when things turned for the worse, we had to persist with Josh because Kamo was out injured.

 

[The Pipe]

Many good posts on here but perhaps we need to take a step back and consider this without any emotion.

We are where we are due to a simple philosophy of identifying young talent that we can develop and improve their value, when they are sold it helps to cover the alarming shortfall between income and expenditure without MB having to dig even further into his deep pockets. It also enables us to purchase better talent and pay higher wages.

This philosophy has held us in good stead and enabled us to continually finish in the top half of the Championship, regularly finishing far higher than clubs with big spending.

Demands for “ experienced “ players need to consider the cost to the club as such players don’t come cheap and if we were to head down that route then there is a correlation to be considered with regards to the finding of new talent that can be developed.

We play some wonderful football but are subject to making costly mistakes due the inexperience of many of our young team however compared to say Forrest, surely our model is far better and certainly far easier on the eye.

I have no doubt the powers that be are considering every alternative but always with the caveat that there will be cost implications and some balance has to be struck between what we want, what we would like what we need and what we can afford.

Doubt there is any simple “ fix” but trust that our style of play does not change as over the past few seasons we have impressed everyone with our slick attacking fluid play

 

[marvelous007]

Many good posts on here but perhaps we need to take a step back and consider this without any emotion.

We are where we are due to a simple philosophy of identifying young talent that we can develop and improve their value, when they are sold it helps to cover the alarming shortfall between income and expenditure without MB having to dig even further into his deep pockets. It also enables us to purchase better talent and pay higher wages.

This philosophy has held us in good stead and enabled us to continually finish in the top half of the Championship, regularly finishing far higher than clubs with big spending.

Demands for “ experienced “ players need to consider the cost to the club as such players don’t come cheap and if we were to head down that route then there is a correlation to be considered with regards to the finding of new talent that can be developed.

We play some wonderful football but are subject to making costly mistakes due the inexperience of many of our young team however compared to say Forrest, surely our model is far better and certainly far easier on the eye.

I have no doubt the powers that be are considering every alternative but always with the caveat that there will be cost implications and some balance has to be struck between what we want, what we would like what we need and what we can afford.

Doubt there is any simple “ fix” but trust that our style of play does not change as over the past few seasons we have impressed everyone with our slick attacking fluid play

Very good post. I do wonder what our surporter expectations will be when we get to LR. Will we stick with this model or blend it slightly to add some experience?. Personally, i don't think we change too much but time will tell. Either way we be in a good place.

 

[A Real Mysteron]

We need to find our Tim Sparv.
A no nonsense experienced head to bind the squad together.

 

[larrysigny]

Fair comment. MB has taken us to where we are and nobody should feel unhappy. He will do what's right for him .

And for the club. And we supporters.

 

[Bangor Bee]

How do we improve? SImple: we need one highly reliable goalkeeper and an outstanding central defender.

 

[Hullbee]

How do we improve? SImple: we need one highly reliable goalkeeper and an outstanding central defender.

No problems should be able to pick them up in the Tesco finest section tomorrow

 

[ruislip bee]

No problems should be able to pick them up in the Tesco finest section tomorrow

More likely in the damaged goods section in the hope we can rebuild them.

 

[YORKIE]

I think we are struggling with crosses into the box and this has caused problems for Bentley and our centre backs. We lost 3 experienced defenders in Bjelland,Egan and Meps ...and these were more dominant when attacking the ball hoisted into the box. Konsa, Jeanvier and Barbet will get better at this as they develop as players.
We do need to be a bit more realistic and content with the position we are in now as an established Championship team.
We are playing lower “Premiership” teams like Norwich, Leeds, WBA ,Sheffield.Utd and giving them a competitive game and no doubt one or two of these will get promoted this year.
I for one am enjoying meeting these teams and feel we are in with a chance of victory in the Championship against these and other financially strong outfits that make up this league.
But look what happens in the Premier League to these teams..... I reckon it is less enjoyable getting beaten and knowing the chances of success are pretty low every week; it must be pretty disheartening being a Fulham,Cardiff or Huddersfield supporter.
It has taken many years for us to get where we are (thanks MB!) Hopefully we will increase our supporter base when we get to Lionel Road and our owner will not have to keep forking out quite so much to keep us financially stable as a result.
I haven’t spoken to Matthew but I am reasonably confident that he never took up ownership of a football club expecting to make money out of it. He, like us is a fan and enjoys the way we are playing and the progress we have made.
We put an awful lot of unnecessary pressure and frustration on ourselves by seeing our goal as “Premier League” football.
Enjoy our success and be grateful for what we have got.

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

I think we are struggling with crosses into the box and this has caused problems for Bentley and our centre backs. We lost 3 experienced defenders in Bjelland,Egan and Meps ...and these were more dominant when attacking the ball hoisted into the box. Konsa, Jeanvier and Barbet will get better at this as they develop as players.

We've not been brilliant aerially at the back for a while (Harlee used to do most of that work on his own rather than Egan).
I don't think that's anything to do with experience.
Jeanvier isn't a young kid and Mepham wasn't an old experienced grizzled CB.
It's just a case of what the individuals are good at and we've imo for a long time we seemed to focus on ability on the deck rather than physical/aerial attributes (all over the park) with our signings. JJ is perhaps the exception.

Although looking at the goals at the weekend this looks more like back to basic individual errors again.

 

[IslandBee]

Nothing on this thread that hasn't been done to death before. You can sum it up with 'a lack of consistency' which is mainly caused by our necessary policy of buying lots of potential and youth and selling on, just as players are settled. As others have said, we might fluke it one year when all the pieces fall into place, but it looks like buying experience is something we're not going to do.

Add to this that we were severely disrupted by DS's move to Villa and the horrible loss of a massively important figure at the club and I think you have probably got all the explanations you need for this season.

 

[larrysigny]

As I said above.

 

[Mr Cynical]

This all seems like a bit of an overreaction to a slightly unfortunate defeat. Yes, we weren't at our best but we could well have come away with a point or even three. We're a young side and as such we will make errors from time to time. We've been on a good run and have looked a lot more solid. I think Frank certainly seems to be well on it and we will learn from this unlike under a previous incumbent. Even clubs like Man City have off days, the trick, as Frank said himself, is to knuckle down and ensure you get at least a point anyway by doing the basic stuff right. Hopefully we'll see that on Wed and we'll have another 'near perfect' performance like the Stoke game..

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

This all seems like a bit of an overreaction to a slightly unfortunate defeat. Yes, we weren't at our best but we could well have come away with a point or even three. We're a young side and as such we will make errors from time to time. We've been on a good run and have looked a lot more solid. I think Frank certainly seems to be well on it and we will learn from this unlike under a previous incumbent. Even clubs like Man City have off days, the trick, as Frank said himself, is to knuckle down and ensure you get at least a point anyway by doing the basic stuff right. Hopefully we'll see that on Wed and we'll have another 'near perfect' performance like the Stoke game..

I'm slightly wary of Villa (as I think they have the players to do better than they have been) but I generally agree with you.
Let's face it - Bentley makes two errors and we concede two goals.
No errors and we win 1-0 (albeit luckily due to his saves from the pen).

There have been lots of reasons for prior dropped points (more Bentley errors, no mobile midfielder like Kamo, no experienced CB like JJ, not yet benefiting from having natural fullbacks like Rico/Moses competing for the spot, Watkins playing through injury, managerial change, and so on and on).

As usual I think we're alright really, but to progress, just like every year, will depend on keeping everyone fit, and the more of the squad we keep together the better we'll be next year (with a few additions it could be a title winning team). Question is whether, unlike other years, we can have a year without losing key players/experience. They will grow individually and as a team given time.

 

[jbee]

We are short of the defensive players we need to be top six, which is due to squadbuilding mistakes in the summer that we will hopefully learn from. In the summer we will need an aerially dominant centre half, some proper back up for the full backs, and at least one midfielder that can break up play.

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

Steroids?

 

[HertfordBee]

This is a ridiculous thread and a total over-reaction.

 

[GP200]

This is a ridiculous thread and a total over-reaction.

..............just right for the GPG..............

 

[Mr Cynical]

we just need to cut out the individual errors, We're a good team and on our day can give anyone a game, but if we keep gifting chances like we did on saturday we'll not get far but it happens with young players. On another day we could have got 3 or 4 goals and won it.. We're not that far off, subs were positive and put us on the front foot and nearly grabbed us a point. We're not likely to go up but we can get as high up the table as we can and I think we're good enough to get ourselves into the top ten again whilst giving some younger players a bit of experience.. Personally I can't wait for Marcondes to come back as I think the idea of him and Benhrama sitting behind Maupay rotating with Canos and Watkins is an extremely exciting prospect...