How optimistic are we?

[North London Bee]

Just got back from holiday so I have not seen the team play yet.

Leaving aside the why's and wherefores of the player sales, the bottom line is this.

The best and most cohesive football we played last season was around the begining of the year and for various good reasons we have lost the best part of that team

- Sodje
- Turner
- Tabb
- Pratley
- Newman (blessing in disguise)
- DJ
- Owusu (long term injury)
- Rankin
- Gayle

It will be an immense achievement for any team at our level to overcome the loss of some many of its important assets.

I have not seen any of the newcomers play and only time will tell if Leroy has used his budget wisely.

I am concerned that we no longer seem to have an impact player - someone that can make something happen as Tabb and DJ could do and conjure a goal out of nothing.

Griffiths and Heywood sound solid enough but can they forge a successful partnership?

I worry about where the goals will come as Moore is untried at this level and Kuffour is not prolific and I suspect both are pretty light weight.

Can someone tell me about Tomlins, he scored 5 times in 15 games for a poor Windsor & Eton team last season. Could he be the joker in the pack, have we found an unpolished gem who can replace DJ? Is he better out wide or down the middle?

Hopefully we can somehow get Willock and Fitz off the wagebill and be able to bring in a targetman even on a short term basis. Maybe this is where we can play the loan market but good ones are hard to come by.

I always liked Pinault when he played against us for Colchester as he seemed to have a football brain but is he consistent and will he do his fair share of defensive duty and will he disappear away from home ? Any views welcomed.

One other question. Have our free kicks improved in the pre-season or is it still the normal Frampton thump? Does Pinault have the ability to bend the ball from the edge of the box.

Successful teams at this level have a solid spine, are well organised and have someone who can do that something out of the ordinary - a Beckett, Eastwood, Windass, Thornton or Yeates.

We have lost most of those assets and does anyone yet think that the replacements can do an adequate job - please let me know.

 

[The H]

i don't think we've got that far forward to have an attacking free-kick

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Friendlies make things hard to realy work out and the few I've been to haven't told me anything about Tomlin on the right for example.
Griffiths looks decent in the air and absolute tosh when the ball is on the floor but I am hoping that this is down to lack of fitness, practise and getting to know his new mates.
At 30 years of age or thereabouts Brooker is nearly getting there.
Oli and Pinault have looked half decent but this is against waank opposition and we have absolutely no cover for them at the moment. We haven't even replaced the Hutch and he wasn't even on your list.
We haven't got a keeper for next week, although I'd loved Masters to have been given the vote this seems very unlikely. The former England U17 keeper who was released by Arsenal and is now 20 has earnt a contract at Chesterfield this week. Now I know football doesn't work like this all the time and he is probably useless but you would hope Paul Mortimer had some sort of link to this guy and others that they released as there is always hope with a young ex-prem kid.:sad:
We have a batch of lower league and unproven tiny forwards who may come off but they need the ball in the right areas to do this. IMHO we are lacking in midfield when it comes to giving them the service they need.
What happened to the lads released by Chelsea, Hollands went to Muff and Tillen to MK but what about the others, did we look at any of them?
Less than a week to go and I really thought that this joke of too many forwards and not enough of anything else would have been sorted and a joke no longer but here we are.
I agreed with the players going and starting from scratch but what we have to offer at the moment is scary.

 

[hobbsy]

Just got back from holiday so I have not seen the team play yet.

.......

I have not seen any of the newcomers play and only time will tell if Leroy has used his budget wisely.

Probably for the best, don't go to Harrow, ignore what everyone is saying on here and go into the Balckpool game with an open mind and thinking we can win.

 

[flowerpower bee]

Friendlies make things hard to realy work out and the few I've been to haven't told me anything about Tomlin on the right for example.
Griffiths looks decent in the air and absolute tosh when the ball is on the floor but I am hoping that this is down to lack of fitness, practise and getting to know his new mates.
At 30 years of age or thereabouts Brooker is nearly getting there.
Oli and Pinault have looked half decent but this is against waank opposition and we have absolutely no cover for them at the moment. We haven't even replaced the Hutch and he wasn't even on your list.
We haven't got a keeper for next week, although I'd loved Masters to have been given the vote this seems very unlikely. The former England U17 keeper who was released by Arsenal and is now 20 has earnt a contract at Chesterfield this week. Now I know football doesn't work like this all the time and he is probably useless but you would hope Paul Mortimer had some sort of link to this guy and others that they released as there is always hope with a young ex-prem kid.:sad:
We have a batch of lower league and unproven tiny forwards who may come off but they need the ball in the right areas to do this. IMHO we are lacking in midfield when it comes to giving them the service they need.
What happened to the lads released by Chelsea, Hollands went to Muff and Tillen to MK but what about the others, did we look at any of them?
Less than a week to go and I really thought that this joke of too many forwards and not enough of anything else would have been sorted and a joke no longer but here we are.
I agreed with the players going and starting from scratch but what we have to offer at the moment is scary.

we have to hope that leroy has irons in lots of fires
and that there will be major transfer activity this week.

presumably willock and fitz will depart
with at very least a central midfielder
and a specialist striker who isn't 36 coming in?

leroy wants to play good football and i'm sure
he'll get it right in time but the team has to be
strengthened in the short term

 

[SQUELCH]

If you compare our squad with everyone elses in our division ours is very very weak but also a lot untried or unheard of.

With Kev and Frampton not signing yet this will only add to the pressure.

 

[ADWBEES]

I'm not sure why people feel we don't have a midfield...
I imagine that against Blackpool the midfield will be Tillen, Brooker, Skullason and Pinault-this looks pretty appealing in my view, although i suppose question marks remain over Skullason's fitness and his true ability at this level as he's not played in a competitive match thus far.
I understand that that our central defenders are not pacy so this probably needs addressing, but remember Evans, Millen and Batesy were slow as hell, Millen was the only one of them who had any real ability on the ball and we won the league! Therefore if the back 4 strike up a good relationship, then it could be really down to the forwards as to how we do this season. What we need is a big, dirty physical target man.

 

[jlove]

I think we have to face the fact that we are going to start the season with a makeshift squad lacking in each area of the pitch.

In the back-line, by all accounts, we are lacking in pace - for all of Sam's errors last season, he could cover most of them with his pace. This will put more onus on both Nelson coming out quicker and whoever is the designated defensive midfielder doing more tracking back. Again, this is something Newman did quite well.

In midfield, there is no cover and therefore we will become predictable. Hopefully, Pinault and Oli can give us some creativity but we will be relying on Brooker on the right... not renown for his defensive qualities... who I have always liked when attacking and Tillen on the left, who is certainly a left-midfielder as opposed to a wide-man. It seems that Pinault can drive forward and support the forwards; let's hope he can score a few for us.

Up front we will not have a hard-working target-man until Owusu comes back (and he's not really a target man). Santos may scare a few centre-backs but he is hardly the answer. The only position we will have serious competition for is the other front-man, so it is the only position that is avaiable to make changes to alter the way a match is going.

On top of all that, the few members of the 'old team', with all the new players, will need to adapt to a totally new style of play. This is the biggest concern because, if it does not come together quickly, the confidence will go and the pressure will be on. For me, it will be a miracle if we can see any reasonable team performance before mid-September. It may be too late by then.

 

[-superbees2k3-]

I'm not sure why people feel we don't have a midfield...
I imagine that against Blackpool the midfield will be Tillen, Brooker, Skullason and Pinault-this looks pretty appealing in my view, although i suppose question marks remain over Skullason's fitness and his true ability at this level as he's not played in a competitive match thus far.
I understand that that our central defenders are not pacy so this probably needs addressing, but remember Evans, Millen and Batesy were slow as hell, Millen was the only one of them who had any real ability on the ball and we won the league! Therefore if the back 4 strike up a good relationship, then it could be really down to the forwards as to how we do this season. What we need is a big, dirty physical target man.

Mt thoughts exactly

 

[longdistancebee]

The best and most cohesive football we played last season was around the begining of the year and for various good reasons we have lost the best part of that team

- Sodje
- Turner
- Tabb
- Pratley
- Newman (blessing in disguise)
- DJ
- Owusu (long term injury)
- Rankin
- Gayle

.

I actually don’t think it is going to be as bad as some think, and I base this on the fact that we achieved a lot last season on really quite slim resources, so no change there then.

I will quantify that statement as follows, but must first add that I have seen none of the friendlies – I find them a total waste of time and an easy way to get unnecessarily stressed out. I am saving my stress vouchers for next weekend…..

But to add my three penn’orth the NLB’s comments, to my mind we have lost four good players: Turner, Sodje, DJ and Pratley (when at his best). Tabb for me was always unable to fulfil his potential because of the mediocrity around him. So infrequently did he really shine (yes he was normally our best player but in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king) that I just don’t see his departure as a major loss to our overall play. And don’t slag me for saying Tabby was not good – he was outstanding, but you could put Schumacher’s engine in my son’s clapped-out Golf and it will still be a clapped-out Golf, but with a good engine. How often did Tabby’s outstanding play result in a perfect cross to be met by no-one. (or to be mis-hit by Rankin or skied by Lloyd or by watched from afar by Gayle).

So, we have to replace Turner, Sodje, DJ and Pratters. Well, only time will tell if Griffiths and A N Other (Heywood if he stays) will do the biz at centre back. They seem to get average reports from the friendlies but next Saturday is what counts. Pratley – well, Pinault seems to be impressing so maybe he will do the job. And that leaves a replacement for DJ, who really only shone for a short time but to take NLB’s point, our best period coincided with both him and Pratley being on fire. And it is here that I have my only real worry thus far, and that is because we are still pretty impotent up front. That is a real concern.

So to sum up ladies and gents, I am not quite so sure that we should give our entire squad under MA some sort of god-like status, as some seem to be doing. We had three maybe four stars and if we can replace them, we might not (probably will not in fact) finish as high as last season, but I am not fretting about relegation just yet. (digs foxhole and prepares for incoming….. )

 

[condorman]

absolutely disagree about tabb. he was the player who took the game to the opposition. when we didnt have him, or couldnt get him on the ball we looked severely lacking in ideas.

 

[Mr Cynical]

Regardless of who we brought in it was always going to be a case of taking time for the team to gel, so I dont think people should be getting worried about a few not-so-great friendly results..

However I do think the squad is painfully thin, we desperately need more cover, in particular in centre midfield and central defence, but equally we dont appear to have any cover at all for KOC at RB which is a real worry especially as he's stalling on signing a new contract..

I would hope we'll see a little more movement on the transfer front in the next wk with maybe some more loans coming in, otherwise I'll be getting a little worried...

Having said that, I thought exactly the same thing at the beginning of last season....

 

[Les Beeavinu]

I am less optimistic than I should be because of the weakness up front. We need someone with presence, someone who can play with their back to goal. Ignore everything else that happens behind that; if we can't keep the ball up front we will lose more games than not.

I hope Santos isn't the man ear-marked for cf. I'd much rather have Quinn but I suspect that was paper talk however I think that the signings are finished now and that disappoints me because I believe we are still two players short; cm and cf.

 

[Watford Bee]

I work with a couple of Daggers fans who are pig-sick that they have lost Moore. They believe he has real class and ability. Also the few times I have seen Conference gAmes they have been extremely physical - so if a player can survive there, he is unlikely to be too lightweight at League 1 level.

Of the other new players, Torquay seemed miffed to lose Kuffour, people seem to like Pinault. Charles and Ide have impressed in pre-season.

We also have a number of players with points to prove or a last chance to kick-start a professional career. Thiese include Skulason, Brooker, Rhodes, Peters, Mousinho, Griffiths and (to put themselves in the shop window) Kev and Framps.

I agree we are short of cover - but we have been for a number of seasons now (just look at the number of reserves that played last Xmas). This is just something we have to live with.

I dont normally go to friendlies, but I might tomorrow as Leroy has said he is going to play the kids and fringe players. This might give clues as to where cover might come from.

I'm not expecting much from this season, but am more optimistic than before either of Downe's seasons in charge.

 

[jmcp]

absolutely disagree about tabb. he was the player who took the game to the opposition. when we didnt have him, or couldnt get him on the ball we looked severely lacking in ideas.

Completely agree, how can anyone say losing Jay Tabb isnt gonna be a massive loss? Wait a couple of games and longdistance bee will be taking a U - turn on that one id think.

 

[Pete the Bee]

I'm not expecting much from this season, but am more optimistic than before either of Downe's seasons in charge.

We're going into this season without any expectations, perhaps the best approach.

We lack quality in areas certainly, but we've a team good enough to avoid relegation from a poor division.

With the likes of Ide and Charles coming through from the youth team, we've got promising players ready to fill any gaps created by injury or suspension. A couple of signings wouldn't go amiss, don't get me wrong, but we can cope.

I've confidence in Leroy. We'll be alright.

 

[flowerpower bee]

:
With the likes of Ide and Charles coming through from the youth team, we've got promising players ready to fill any gaps created by injury or suspension.

but are they ready?
leroy doesn't seem to think so

charles and ide have been amongst the
pre-season positives yet neither were in the manager's starting line -up yeserday (nelson apart, apparently LR's starting team for blackpool)

my opinion is that both they and the young goalkeeper
masters have all a part to play this season and that they should be
involved in the squad from the outset

 

[Mads Bee]

I am all for giving LR and his team for support. I have attended all friendlies outside of the Devon Tour and watched the trialists come and go, the new players settle in, the youth team players flourish and the regulars play a different type of football.

With the players leaving at the end of the season ( not inc.the loanee's Smith and Pratley) ( please add if I have missed any ) Bankole, Turner, Sodje, Tabb, Hutch, Newman, Rankin, Gayle and Lewis

That is 9 players, a couple of them were on higher wages than the norm.

We have brought in Moore ( who's wages are going to be paid by the Coke money ) Kuffour, Griffiths, Tomlin, Pinault and no announcement has been made with regard to Santos, so don't know whats happening there.

So 4 of those are officially on the payroll ( excl. Moore ) and 9 are out.

With the playing budget only being 11k less than last year, surely we can afford to bring in a couple of experienced players to the defence and midfield. Why bring in a player on loan when LR has specifically stated he doesn't really look favourably on loanees. We have lost a hell of a lot of players in comparison to what has been brought in and am sure there are sweetners for OConnor and Frampton which will have increased their wages but not to the extent that we cannot afford to bring in a couple of players.

I feel Charles and Ide especially will get their chances this year but these younger players plus others will also need their contracts looking at, as they finish the end of the season too.

All in all of the new boys, Pinault and Kuffour look to be good 'uns, but we desperately need a couple of experienced players to boost our team.

Santos, ( if he stays ) I feel will be good in defence but not upfront - he is totally uninspirational in that position.People were calling for the return of Gayle yesterday!!!

Overall, we do need more "solid" experienced players and can expect to have to pay them more than the non leaguers brought in but surely we have the money with the players out v the players in ???

Hoping for mid table, expecting near relegation tho....

Oh well UP THE BEES !! See you all on saturday ( and on Monday at Hampton....what a mug :sad: )

 

[Wise old Bee]

We could get lucky if the new signings knit together and gain a bit of confidence with early results. When Noades bought in untried players like Owusu Powell and Rowlands it worked from the start although in a lesser division. If we start badly then it could be a long hard season. I still think that we need another experienced centre back and I've never been entirely confident with Nelson and the team appears to lack a spine. Optimistic? Well I never am after all those years but I retain lingering hopes of being pleasantly surprised. Mid-table and an Autoglass (or whatever it's called) final at Wembley will do for me.

 

[flowerpower bee]

almost immediately after he was appointed leroy stated that
he was concerned to be patient and get the right men
rather than make panic buys and blow the entire season's budget.

there are admirable sentiments but leroy must know that the squad thus far assembled isn't strong enough (especially now that we know owusu will miss the first half of the season) and hopefully a central midfielder and
specialist striker will be brought in this week to give the place a lift

i remember similar pessimism just prior the start of wally's first full season
and responded by bringing in sonko and rowan vine!

i do hope LR can pull similar rabbits out of a hat

 

[longdistancebee]

Completely agree, how can anyone say losing Jay Tabb isnt gonna be a massive loss? Wait a couple of games and longdistance bee will be taking a U - turn on that one id think.

Please read my post again. Maybe I did not express my views quite right (still hungover from Saturday night!!) but I was trying to say that, in my view, Tabby was so revered because of what he could do as an individual, but I think that he only had a material influence on the actual result of a handful of games.

So often I watched him last season and he played an absolute blinder but had no impact on the final result (ie., we lost or drew, especially toward the end of the season) because of the crap around him. Do not forget jmcp that last season's division was one of the weakest for a number of years. Hudders, Forest, Brizzle et al, all failed to deliver, and we had such an ideal opportunity to get out (at the right end!) and still failed. We were not that good, we simply beat teams that were even worse.

 

[longdistancebee]

And I am still staggered that so many on this board are wailing and bemoaning the loss of Owusu. OK - maybe it is my sad duty to comment on the emporer's new garb, but, regardless of what he once was, Owusu is crap. End of. I know it hurts to admit it but he is. I was absoluitely gutted when we sold him and euphoric when he came back, but he is not even a shadow of what he once was and to my mind is juist taking up valuable space on the salary bill. Back to that foxhole.....

 

[maddogging]

And I am still staggered that so many on this board are wailing and bemoaning the loss of Owusu. OK - maybe it is my sad duty to comment on the emporer's new garb, but, regardless of what he once was, Owusu is crap. End of. I know it hurts to admit it but he is. I was absoluitely gutted when we sold him and euphoric when he came back, but he is not even a shadow of what he once was and to my mind is juist taking up valuable space on the salary bill. Back to that foxhole.....

but in the context of what strikers we have available, Owusu is a massive loss, he could do the donkey work to allow Moore/Kuffour/Tomlins to benefit, without him, we are looking at Santos doing the work..............I will let you decide......

 

[longdistancebee]

but in the context of what strikers we have available, Owusu is a massive loss, he could do the donkey work to allow Moore/Kuffour/Tomlins to benefit, without him, we are looking at Santos doing the work..............I will let you decide......

Rats! You are of course right, or certainly to a fair extent. His ability to work with his back to goal and create chances for others is still good. I just remember him as he was before he got all his natural goal-scoring instincts coached out of him by our wonderful English system of play.

 

[jmcp]

I dont get your logic longdistancebee. It seems to be (and correct me if im wrong) jay tabb was a really good player who played blinders but it didnt result on us winning many games as a result of the players around him. You now think we will be better off with similar 'crap' players minus a brillant Jay Tabb. Its beyond me!

 

[longdistancebee]

I dont get your logic longdistancebee. It seems to be (and correct me if im wrong) jay tabb was a really good player who played blinders but it didnt result on us winning many games as a result of the players around him. You now think we will be better off with similar 'crap' players minus a brillant Jay Tabb. Its beyond me!

OK - I am as big a Tabb fan as any on here, but I do not believe - my opinion here... - that he was as instrumental to our success last season (and the one before) as some feel. He was great when he had the ball and he created many good chances for attacking play. As is said above and also in many other threads, he was one of the few areas of creativity last season. However, I think that his skills were to a degree wasted and I believe that if we replace him with someone who only has 70% of Tabby's skill, that would not have a noticeably detrimental effect to our play, because there would be nobody else around him to take advantage of his skill.

Another analogy: it takes a lot of laps to put a F1 car around in a competitive time. If I did some laps tomorrow I would be no quicker in Schumacher's Ferrari as in last season's Minardi with square wheels! You are limited by the lowest common denominator (Newman, Fitz, Willock etc).

 

[Bigbee]

Another analogy: it takes a lot of laps to put a F1 car around in a competitive time. If I did some laps tomorrow I would be no quicker in Schumacher's Ferrari as in last season's Minardi with square wheels! You are limited by the lowest common denominator (Newman, Fitz, Willock etc).

Thats two references to F1 today from you ! Maybe youve got a bit over excited about it being on !

 

[condorman]

have we definately signed Tomlin ? I know he was offered a dela but didnt know that he had accepted

 

[Youngbee2]

have we definately signed Tomlin ? I know he was offered a dela but didnt know that he had accepted

Genrally trailests do

 

[Stanley]

I can understand longdistancebees logic in that playing an "in your face" direct style of play under MA did not really make the most of Tabby's ability, however his ability on the ball would have made him a perfect part of LR's team so we will miss him.

The others to leave like Hutch, Newman, Rankin, Gayle and Lewis we will hardly miss, workhorses and/or huff and puff players at best, I don't know how people can say the attack will be so much weaker with the likes of the nearly men like Rankin in it last season.

The key men we will miss are Sodje and Turner and much will depend on how these are replaced, not just in terms of our defending but our ability to put the oppo under pressure if we are leading or drawing. MA's style of play was to defend a narrow lead or draw which put a lot of pressure on the back four to defend like lions. I am hoping we will spend a lot more time in the oppo's half which may mean less dependenecy on the central defenders in particular.

 

[longdistancebee]

Thats two references to F1 today from you ! Maybe youve got a bit over excited about it being on !

Sorry Bigbee! I just love the smell of burning rubber......

 

[Canadian Bee]

i'm looking forward to this season greatly,i think we might just suprise a lot of people this year!

 

[ChinaBee]

Another analogy: it takes a lot of laps to put a F1 car around in a competitive time. If I did some laps tomorrow I would be no quicker in Schumacher's Ferrari as in last season's Minardi with square wheels! You are limited by the lowest common denominator (Newman, Fitz, Willock etc).

Your analogy of the German in F1 is so far off what you are trying to say. Schumacker can win F1's in poor cars becasue he is a good driver. Tabb can win games with his skills beacuse he is a good player. He did it sooo many times last season and the season before it is not true

Luton (cup), Wycombe, Barnsley, Hull watch him go at Coventry

Last season we were crap up front but Tabby helped to make them look good, no other player (apart from Pratley early season) made the forwards look good.

I just HOPE Oli is as good as MA said he was (to us and the board - wages) and that he can take Tabbys boots and make sh!t forwards look good with his passing


Oh in answer to the question - I am very pessimistic - sorry

 

[Boston Bee]

Sorry Bigbee! I just love the feel of rubber......

 

[GP200]

....not overly...............

 

[Downbeat Bee]

....not overly...............

Unfortunately ditto

But then I'm always moderately pessimistic

 

[Paul O'Brien]

I'm more optimistic than a turkey who's just found out that his new owners are called Goldstein.