Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

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larrysigny

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Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

North London Bee said:
.......We no longer look a soft touch and made some cynical fouls to protect our lead and keep Reading at a safe distance.......
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I am surprised at you NLB for seeming to condone this. I, for one, really hate the idea of OUR club cheating to get a result.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
I am surprised at you NLB for seeming to condone this. I, for one, really hate the idea of OUR club cheating to get a result.
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Needs must Larry, a foul is a foul - not cheating. Diving is cheating and that I certainly would never condone.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
I am surprised at you NLB for seeming to condone this. I, for one, really hate the idea of OUR club cheating to get a result.
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What tripe.

All the best teams ha e done this for 100 years to try to win a game.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
We're talking DELIBERATE fouls to stop the opposition (ie: breaking a rule on purpose). And that, I'm afraid, IS cheating.
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Larry, like it or not football has moved on. We are no longer in the Corinthian era and I see no return to the time when a team would leave an empty net when conceding a penalty.

Maybe “everyone else does it so we must too” is an indictment of the game but it is a truism too.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Aslong as it's not dangerous It needs to be done sometimes. Never mind the championship where there could be hundreds of millions of pounds at stake , I'm sure it's happened to plenty of us on a cold Sunday morning!
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
We're talking DELIBERATE fouls to stop the opposition (ie: breaking a rule on purpose). And that, I'm afraid, IS cheating.
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Corinthian Casuals is this way! *points*
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

North London Bee said:
Larry, like it or not football has moved on. We are no longer in the Corinthian era and I see no return to the time when a team would leave an empty net when conceding a penalty. Maybe “everyone else does it so we must too” is an indictment of the game but it is a truism too.
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OK, let's take a hypothetical instance.

t's the last game of the season, it's either the Bees needing two points or their opponents on the day needing a draw to get the final promotion place into the premiership.

In the last minute, the score is 0-0 - and suddenly Vibe gets through. The goalkeeper rushes out, slips, and Vibe has an empty net with no-one on the goal line to clear. As he is about to go into the penalty area., the goalie reaches out and pulls his leg from under him. "Needs must". Vibe goes down, the game ends, no goals and the other team goes into the top flight.

Would you condone it - or like me feel somewhat cheated?
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
OK, let's take a hypothetical instance.

t's the last game of the season, it's either the Bees needing two points or their opponents on the day needing a draw to get the final promotion place into the premiership.

In the last minute, the score is 0-0 - and suddenly Vibe gets through. The goalkeeper rushes out, slips, and Vibe has an empty net with no-one on the goal line to clear. As he is about to go into the penalty area., the goalie reaches out and pulls his leg from under him. "Needs must". Vibe goes down, the game ends, no goals and the other team goes into the top flight.

Would you condone it - or like me feel somewhat cheated?
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I’d praise their goale for having the presence of mind to take a yellow card which got his team promotion. All within the rules.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
OK, let's take a hypothetical instance.

t's the last game of the season, it's either the Bees needing two points or their opponents on the day needing a draw to get the final promotion place into the premiership.

In the last minute, the score is 0-0 - and suddenly Vibe gets through. The goalkeeper rushes out, slips, and Vibe has an empty net with no-one on the goal line to clear. As he is about to go into the penalty area., the goalie reaches out and pulls his leg from under him. "Needs must". Vibe goes down, the game ends, no goals and the other team goes into the top flight.

Would you condone it - or like me feel somewhat cheated?
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Were you at the Middlesborough play off games when we got destroyed by gamesmanship and them taking it in turns to get booked?

Yes, it made me angry, but nowhere as angry as I was that we lost. Every time we played them.

Where did the nice guys finish on those occasions?
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Always thought it was called "a professional foul" and is and has been accepted for as long as I can remember?
We have always been the "nice guys" at last we are showing some steel.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
We're talking DELIBERATE fouls to stop the opposition (ie: breaking a rule on purpose). And that, I'm afraid, IS cheating.
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No its called a foul and dealt with by the referee as per his discretation. Trying to pretend you didnt do something when you did is cheating.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Blimey what a weird thread . You commit a foul and if the ref thinks it is deliberate or serious you get a yellow card ( or a red one ) . Then as cards mount up you get a suspension.

It's the way the game works .

Meanwhile in La La Land we get promoted without any bad fouls or suspensions . ( or maybe not)
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
OK, let's take a hypothetical instance.

t's the last game of the season, it's either the Bees needing two points or their opponents on the day needing a draw to get the final promotion place into the premiership.

In the last minute, the score is 0-0 - and suddenly Vibe gets through. The goalkeeper rushes out, slips, and Vibe has an empty net with no-one on the goal line to clear. As he is about to go into the penalty area., the goalie reaches out and pulls his leg from under him. "Needs must". Vibe goes down, the game ends, no goals and the other team goes into the top flight.

Would you condone it - or like me feel somewhat cheated?
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It's not cheating, it's a foul and the goalkeeper would be punished. Its part of the game and certainly has been in all my life time, when I played and watching football. I don't know what you have been watching if you have only seen pure football played by gentleman who wouldn't dream of committing a foul.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

JTofBFC said:
Blimey what a weird thread . You commit a foul and if the ref thinks it is deliberate or serious you get a yellow card ( or a red one ) . Then as cards mount up you get a suspension.

It's the way the game works .

Meanwhile in La La Land we get promoted without any bad fouls or suspensions . ( or maybe not)
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I can see the stats now, between August and December we did not give away a single free kick and we had 14 players nominated for the EFL fair play award. Unfortunately we remain bottom of the table on 6 points (thanks to back to back victories against QPR and Fulham, again) and will undoubtedly be relegated by February.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
We're talking DELIBERATE fouls to stop the opposition (ie: breaking a rule on purpose). And that, I'm afraid, IS cheating.
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So you would let someone lose the ball on the halfway line leaving the opposition with a clear run on goal with only a last ditch tackle in pursuit or from a defender getting back, with all the dangers of a red card ,goal or pen rather than commit a professional foul?
We might as well give up now.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Larry I think I have let everyone else speak for me.

I am sick and tired of watching our talented midgets get bullied and battered by larger and more streetwise teams. The Middlesbrough playoff home was a prime example. Six of their players (IIRC) were booked and they lined up to take turns and stop our natural game. I am fed up with our being graceful losers whilst others laugh at us.

We sign decent young men who know how to behave on and off the pitch and I take pride in that but the laws of the jungle prevail on the pitch and IMO, sad though it might be, you have to fight fire with fire.
 
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Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

So, you'd rather have a repeat of the game at QPR on a regular basis, Larry? Personally I don't want to see that sort of ending to a game that we are winning EVER again. Give me a few cynical fouls any day of the week if needs must. Fortunately, it looks, from the last few games, that we have wised up on how to see out a game where we're winning and long may it continue.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

North London Bee said:
Larry I think I have let everyone else speak for me.

I am sick and tired of watching our talented midgets get bullied and battered by larger and more streetwise teams. The Middlesbrough playoff home was a prime example. Six of their players (IIRC) were booked and they lined up to take turns and stopping our natural game. I am fed up with our being graceful losers whilst others laugh at us.

We sign decent young man who know how to behave on and off the pitch and Itake pride in that but the laws of the jungle prevail on the pitch and IMO, sad though it might be, you have to fight fire with fire.
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My sentiments entirely :imwith:
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Of course it is but is part and parcel of the game at any level. All good teams know when to do it. Different to diving imho which is despicable but some may argue its the same.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

cromerbee said:
Of course it is but is part and parcel of the game at any level. All good teams know when to do it. Different to diving imho which is despicable but some may argue its the same.
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No, its totally different. Its an attempt to fool the ref. Its contemptible. So is collapsing in agony trying to get someone sent off when they've not actually touched you.
A foul is a foul, plain and simple. Its punishable and its not cheating!
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

This thread is mad. 40 years ago in the Hayes & District Sunday League, I played against nutters who would cheerfully kick me into next week if it meant I didn't score.

It's up to the ref to sort out the wrong-doers. Always has been, always will be. The days of "after you claude" are well gone. I doubt they were ever there!!!
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Newport Pagnell Bee said:
This thread is mad. 40 years ago in the Hayes & District Sunday League, I played against nutters who would cheerfully kick me into next week if it meant I didn't score.

It's up to the ref to sort out the wrong-doers. Always has been, always will be. The days of "after you claude" are well gone. I doubt they were ever there!!!
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Indeed. Hacking formed part of the original laws!
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
OK, let's take a hypothetical instance.

t's the last game of the season, it's either the Bees needing two points or their opponents on the day needing a draw to get the final promotion place into the premiership.

In the last minute, the score is 0-0 - and suddenly Vibe gets through. The goalkeeper rushes out, slips, and Vibe has an empty net with no-one on the goal line to clear. As he is about to go into the penalty area., the goalie reaches out and pulls his leg from under him. "Needs must". Vibe goes down, the game ends, no goals and the other team goes into the top flight.

Would you condone it - or like me feel somewhat cheated?
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Lets flip it around.

It's the last game of the season, it's either the Bees needing one point (a draw) or their opponents on the day needing 2 points to get the final promotion place into the premiership.

In the last minute, the score is 0-0 - and suddenly their striker gets through. Bentley rushes out, slips, and their striker has an empty net with no-one on the goal line to clear. As he is about to go into the penalty area., Bentley reaches out and pulls his leg from under him. "Needs must". Their striker goes down, the game ends, no goals and the other team goes into the top flight.

Would you condone it - or would you rather we say sorry and when the free kick is taken move out of the way and let them score the goal they should have scored?

I know which I would choose.

Do you remember the Doncaster match? That was heartbreaking. We needed the points, they needed a draw. They tried to prevent us from getting the points but the referee saw fit to give us a penalty (which was missed). If this happened outside the area and we were about to score, would you have been pee'd off that Doncaster stopped us from scoring and having the chance to have gone up?
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

ladbroke said:
Lets flip it around.

It's the last game of the season, it's either the Bees needing one point (a draw) or their opponents on the day needing 2 points to get the final promotion place into the premiership.

In the last minute, the score is 0-0 - and suddenly their striker gets through. Bentley rushes out, slips, and their striker has an empty net with no-one on the goal line to clear. As he is about to go into the penalty area., Bentley reaches out and pulls his leg from under him. "Needs must". Their striker goes down, the game ends, no goals and the other team goes into the top flight.

Would you condone it - or would you rather we say sorry and when the free kick is taken move out of the way and let them score the goal they should have scored?

I know which I would choose.

Do you remember the Doncaster match? That was heartbreaking. We needed the points, they needed a draw. They tried to prevent us from getting the points but the referee saw fit to give us a penalty (which was missed). If this happened outside the area and we were about to score, would you have been pee'd off that Doncaster stopped us from scoring and having the chance to have gone up?
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I've read this 5 times and I still don't get it.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Crazy thread. Fouling is just an act in football that attracts a ‘penalty’. You decide if the penalty is worth committing the act. It’s part of the game strategy.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

I seem to be the only one but to SOME extent I feel the same way as Larry. After that Middlesbrough game I'm pretty sure most of us (including me) were slagging them off for the cynical and dirty way they stopped us playing and that many on here were coming out with comments such as "I'm glad we don't have to watch that kind of football every week", "cheating Northern ******" etc.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Holder’s team knew how to bite, kick and scream and I doubt any of us minded that, there weren’t many years when I followed Bees teams up north and actually felt that the home teams were more scared of us than the other way around. I hate diving, screaming, running off with the ball, kicking it away, time wasting etc but a wallop or two without breaking people is a lovely part of the game, the professional foul that stops the breakaway is an art, a dark art but you won’t stop it.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

NorthamptonBee said:
Holder’s team knew how to bite, kick and scream and I doubt any of us minded that, there weren’t many years when I followed Bees teams up north and actually felt that the home teams were more scared of us than the other way around. I hate diving, screaming, running off with the ball, kicking it away, time wasting etc but a wallop or two without breaking people is a lovely part of the game, the professional foul that stops the breakaway is an art, a dark art but you won’t stop it.
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Martin Allen teams were hated by opposing players and fans alike as hated losing and while limited in quality were prepared to "battle" and hard to beat.

It's not kids football and there's livelihoods and millions at stake so you do whatever is required and those who don't approve should follow Corinthian Casuals
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

A Real Mysteron said:
I've read this 5 times and I still don't get it.
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Basically Larry suggested the above but roles reversed and would we be annoyed that our opponents "cheated" by stopping us having an open goal and thus getting a winning goal (and the points to take us up).
So I asked the question reversing the roles, asking if we were trying to save the point and Bentley brought their striker would we be happy or not.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

NorthamptonBee said:
Holder’s team knew how to bite, kick and scream and I doubt any of us minded that, there weren’t many years when I followed Bees teams up north and actually felt that the home teams were more scared of us than the other way around. I hate diving, screaming, running off with the ball, kicking it away, time wasting etc but a wallop or two without breaking people is a lovely part of the game, the professional foul that stops the breakaway is an art, a dark art but you won’t stop it.
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I agree a wallop or two is a lovely part of the game and the professional foul that stops a breakaway is a dark art. If push comes to shove and I'm not allowed to sit on the fence, I'd prefer that it's one particular dark art that we don't practice.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Typical Larry lol - the day I agree with anything he says is the day I seriously worry about my state of mind.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

I'd say some fouling is cheating and some isn't. When the player's sole intent is to foul , eg when there's no attempt at all to play the ball, just to trip or kick the player, I'd call that cheating. On the other hand, when you go in hard, doing your best to win the tackle in a way you think is hard but fair but the ref disagrees and calls it a foul, to me that's fouling but definitely not cheating. It's all about intent, that's what determines if it's cheating or just simply fouling.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

ladbroke said:
Did you understand Larry's post then?
I'm guessing you did as you never mentioned anything about his.
All I did was reverse the conditions.
If you didn't understand mine, you didn't understand his.
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Chill. I was confused!! All is good with the world apart from Larry's madness. Up the Bees.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

The devil, I think is in the detail.
You say that the bees need one point to go up and the opposition need two. From memory you can only get 1,3 or 0 points from a game.
Next, Bentley beings the fella down. The Bees draw the game but you say that the oppo go up.

Hence my bafflement.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

A Real Mysteron said:
The devil, I think is in the detail.
You say that the bees need one point to go up and the opposition need two. From memory you can only get 1,3 or 0 points from a game.
Next, Bentley beings the fella down. The Bees draw the game but you say that the oppo go up.

Hence my bafflement.
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I may have not enitrely edited his post but i tried lol
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

larrysigny said:
We're talking DELIBERATE fouls to stop the opposition (ie: breaking a rule on purpose). And that, I'm afraid, IS cheating.
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It's a law not a rule.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

whispering dave said:
I seem to be the only one but to SOME extent I feel the same way as Larry. After that Middlesbrough game I'm pretty sure most of us (including me) were slagging them off for the cynical and dirty way they stopped us playing and that many on here were coming out with comments such as "I'm glad we don't have to watch that kind of football every week", "cheating Northern ******" etc.
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The difference is we can play football as well. And boy most teams in this league cant compete with it. If we add in some "game management" which includes the odd foul to see a win through then we will be a better team IMO and stand a chance of winning promotion. That QPR debacle was sickening and i never want to experience that again.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

I often go to GP with a Chelsea fan of many years standing and on more than one occaision he has said to me that the problem with Brentford is that they are to nice. His meaning being is that nice guys win nothing and you don't get points for being nice on the field of play. All successful teams have a nasty side to them, that I'm afraid is the real world.
 

Is Fouling Cheating? (Split Thread)

Why bring this up now?

I seem to recollect about three seasons ago it was Bees 1 Derby 1 going into stoppage time when Dallas makes it 2 -1. Not having had a player booked for the previous 92 minutes, the remaining 3 minutes of stoppage time saw us pick up 3 Yellow Cards.

But how do you define cheating? By deliberately and unfairly breaking the laws of the game to seek an advantage, if so isn't deliberately stealing a few yards at Throw Ins or not standing the full 10 yards at Free Kicks cheating.

FIFA have realised that the "Professional Foul" has been happening for years and has issued the directive to referees that it is punishable by a Yellow Card as long as it is does not stop a clear goal scoring opportunity.

How many early Yellow Cards did Alan McCormack pick up while at Brentford for crunching fouls just to let his opponent know that he was marking him for the day. Never got sent off because he knew the limits, as did all the hard men of football ever since I started following football 50 years ago. It's all part of the game.
 
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