Larry Asks: "Gamesmanship or Cheating?"

[larrysigny]

True but it makes the need for change all the more urgent.

In snooker, another sport where prestige and money are at stake, players often call a foul against themselves if the referee has missed an infringement. Just a random example but it demonstrates that football doesn't have to be the way it is.

We will never eradicate cheating completely but we can do a lot more to reduce it. I fail to understand why any true sportsman would wish otherwise.

Very well put.

 

[larrysigny]

genuine question
Bees need to win in final game of season to win the PL
We are 2-1 up with a few seconds of injury time remaining.

Opponent breaks though over the half way line, Nathan Collins is running after him and just as the opponent pulls back his leg to shoot on the edge of the area Nathan wipes him out with a late tackle

Deserved red card to Nathan

Free kick to the opposition who blaze it over

Bees win PL

Would you think, it is tainted and not enjoy it? Or would you think needs must and it got us over the line?

I would - genuinely - feel sick that my team had to do that.

 

[Silly Hat]

I *love* cheating, and still have a lickle dribble in my pants when I think of Saman Ghoddos‘ dive in the penalty area against Watford in the 95th minute which resulted in Mbeumo slotting away the resultant penalty. That contributed massively to Watford’s relegation that season.

Watford are still down in the Championship, four seasons later ?

Like Watford Relegation Button below ?

 

[LongLostBee]

genuine question
Bees need to win in final game of season to win the PL
We are 2-1 up with a few seconds of injury time remaining.

Opponent breaks though over the half way line, Nathan Collins is running after him and just as the opponent pulls back his leg to shoot on the edge of the area Nathan wipes him out with a late tackle

Deserved red card to Nathan

Free kick to the opposition who blaze it over

Bees win PL

Would you think, it is tainted and not enjoy it? Or would you think needs must and it got us over the line?

Personally I'd celebrate like I'd won the lottery and then probably die from the resulting alcohol consumption.
Simple fact is there's endless cheating in football of all degrees.
If we're going to be puritanical about it and never do even the most minor bit of cheating then we're just adding an extra 10/20/30% chance of us being relegated (or not winning something).
It's ultimately up to the officials and rule makers to stamp it out.
Trying to be more saintly that everyone else is p*ssing in the wind and only costs us and us alone.

 

[hanworthbee]

We won but personally I think when Bryan got that corner we should have taken it short and tried to run the clock down by any means possible be it skulduggery or anything

 

[AB]

genuine question
Bees need to win in final game of season to win the PL
We are 2-1 up with a few seconds of injury time remaining.

Opponent breaks though over the half way line, Nathan Collins is running after him and just as the opponent pulls back his leg to shoot on the edge of the area Nathan wipes him out with a late tackle

Deserved red card to Nathan

Free kick to the opposition who blaze it over

Bees win PL

Would you think, it is tainted and not enjoy it? Or would you think needs must and it got us over the line?

We could have something like this in the last game v Wolves! If Nathan did it and took out Cunha badly it might also bankrupt and relegate Wolves next season.

 

[whyteleafebee76]

True but it makes the need for change all the more urgent.

In snooker, another sport where prestige and money are at stake, players often call a foul against themselves if the referee has missed an infringement. Just a random example but it demonstrates that football doesn't have to be the way it is.

We will never eradicate cheating completely but we can do a lot more to reduce it. I fail to understand why any true sportsman would wish otherwise.

Define cheating? Are you saying that any foul is cheating? A tactical foul is cheating?

What are you expecting players to do stop the game and say, 'sorry ref I got the player first, not the ball that is a free kick and you may also want to book me.'

If you are talking about players diving to con the referee that is different and I think most people would agree that this is not wanted in the game and we would hate it if our players did it.

 

[whyteleafebee76]

genuine question
Bees need to win in final game of season to win the PL
We are 2-1 up with a few seconds of injury time remaining.

Opponent breaks though over the half way line, Nathan Collins is running after him and just as the opponent pulls back his leg to shoot on the edge of the area Nathan wipes him out with a late tackle

Deserved red card to Nathan

Free kick to the opposition who blaze it over

Bees win PL

Would you think, it is tainted and not enjoy it? Or would you think needs must and it got us over the line?

Straight forward, Nathan did the right thing in the circumstances and I will enjoy the result.

 

[pompeybee]

Is ungentlemanly conduct still (if ever) an offence? If so, can a ref use this at his discretion?

It's now called 'unsporting behaviour', since the laws were rewritten in woke style.

As for what it means, and how it's applied, you'll need to read Law 12 for yourself, but in practice it's clear that there's a degree of interpretation, and thus discretion, on the part of referees.

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct

IFAB Laws of the Game

www.thefa.com

 

[BURFORD BEE]

I would call it sad that a Bees' supporter thinks it necessary to cheat in order to win.

It's about a level playing field surely ?
The opposition uses every possible method to win the game. Time wasting, gamesmanship, influencing the ref, professional fouls to name but a few. We play like Roy of the Rovers against that and we have no chance. It's sad but true.
That said I believe that we are more honest and fair than most.

 

[BURFORD BEE]

True but it makes the need for change all the more urgent.

In snooker, another sport where prestige and money are at stake, players often call a foul against themselves if the referee has missed an infringement. Just a random example but it demonstrates that football doesn't have to be the way it is.

We will never eradicate cheating completely but we can do a lot more to reduce it. I fail to understand why any true sportsman would wish otherwise.

Snooker is a game, not a sport!

 

[BURFORD BEE]

I would - genuinely - feel sick that my team had to do that.

I'd feel sick after the amount of beer I'd consume that evening!

 

[rebus]

I doubt you've ever watched a game where someone hasn't cheated Larry.

In any sport!

 

[wibs]

I would - genuinely - feel sick that my team had to do that.

Wow, I find that amazing

No criticism of you as that is how you feel but just really surprised that you have such a "pure" requirement for top level sport

 

[AB]

Wow, I find that amazing

No criticism of you as that is how you feel but just really surprised that you have such a "pure" requirement for top level sport

Leave poor larry alone. It’s not his fault he started watching the Bees when it fielded all 11 Cholmondley-Warner brothers who each had a hanky stuffed up their sleeves, only ever raised their voices to note that Hitler chappie was a bit of a rum cove who should steady on a bit and wouldn’t spit in public unless their dentures had slipped. Different times.

 

[hairman]

It's about a level playing field surely ?

Yeovil Town got away without one until 1990.
Is that cheating?

 

[BURFORD BEE]

Yeovil Town got away without one until 1990.
Is that cheating?

No it's a slope.

 

[horshambees]

Gamesmanship or cheating ?
Just watch Rugby Union for tactical fouls and skull duggery.All accepted and part of the game.They will tell us that their game is better than ours though.
Football has a lot to learn it seems

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

Whilst I wouldn’t go as far as Larry in pursuit of a purer game, I have to say I’m totally fed up of the diving and feigning, especially the rolling around, slapping hand on turf/waving hand in air to signify serious injury/holding up imaginary yellow card etc. Please start punishing these things with an “unsporting behaviour” yellow. No problem with the activation foul though. Normal thing in most team sports. Risk/reward/sanction.

 

[Beestill my beating heart]

If we do 'A' then it's gamesmanship. If they do 'A' then it's cheating. ??

 

[AB]

Gamesmanship or cheating ?
Just watch Rugby Union for tactical fouls and skull duggery.All accepted and part of the game.They will tell us that their game is better than ours though.
Football has a lot to learn it seems

Both Rugby League and American Football have fouls as their main game mechanic.

 

[BURFORD BEE]

Leave poor larry alone. It’s not his fault he started watching the Bees when it fielded all 11 Cholmondley-Warner brothers who each had a hanky stuffed up their sleeves, only ever raised their voices to note that Hitler chappie was a bit of a rum cove who should steady on a bit and wouldn’t spit in public unless their dentures had slipped. Different times.

It changed in all sports when money reared its ugly head.
Remember the cricket when there were gentlemen and players, football before the likes of George Eastham, Wimbledon with Hoad, Derek Ibbotson and Gordon Pirie on the track at White City. A different time some would say better, who knows?

 

[Paul_T]

Both Rugby League and American Football have fouls as their main game mechanic.

Sorry, run that by me again, how exactly does rugby league have fouls as their main game mechanic? Don't really understand what you're claiming here?

 

[westendbee]

It changed in all sports when money reared its ugly head.
Remember the cricket when there were gentlemen and players, football before the likes of George Eastham, Wimbledon with Hoad, Derek Ibbotson and Gordon Pirie on the track at White City. A different time some would say better, who knows?

Cricket’s “gentlemen and players” was a particularly odd relic of the British class system; the gentlemen changed in a different dressing room from the players!

 

[horshambees]

Both Rugby League and American Football have fouls as their main game mechanic.

Exactly.Giving away a penalty is better than a try i was told and that is accepted and its a deliberate act on the park.

 

[BURFORD BEE]

Cricket’s “gentlemen and players” was a particularly odd relic of the British class system; the gentlemen changed in a different dressing room from the players!

There's a lot more odd relics of it still around!!

 

[AB]

Exactly.Giving away a penalty is better than a try i was told and that is accepted and its a deliberate act on the park.

It becomes touch rugby otherwise.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

It changed in all sports when money reared its ugly head.
Remember the cricket when there were gentlemen and players, football before the likes of George Eastham, Wimbledon with Hoad, Derek Ibbotson and Gordon Pirie on the track at White City. A different time some would say better, who knows?

Bending the rules in cricket, particularly bowlers, has been going on for ever. The infamous body line series was in 1932, "manakading" was so named after the first known instance in 1947. First proven case of football match fixing was in the early 20th century. 1915 British football match-fixing scandal - Wikipedia

 

[HantsBee]

It has always happened in one form or another..in the 1960's when I was in my early 20's I wouldn't think twice about fouling an opponent who was in for a chance of a goal or promising attack....cheating or just wanting my team to win....?...

 

[rebus]

Cricket’s “gentlemen and players” was a particularly odd relic of the British class system; the gentlemen changed in a different dressing room from the players!

Indeed - but even they recognised it was nonsense well before football did. Cricket abolished amateur status 11 years before football.

 

[rebus]

Bending the rules in cricket, particularly bowlers, has been going on for ever. The infamous body line series was in 1932, "manakading" was so named after the first known instance in 1947. First proven case of football match fixing was in the early 20th century. 1915 British football match-fixing scandal - Wikipedia

Brentford were suspended for a month and forced to turn professional by the football association in 1899 for paying players illegally - if that's not cheating then I don't know what is.

 

[whyteleafebee76]

Brentford were suspended for a month and forced to turn professional by the football association in 1899 for paying players illegally - if that's not cheating then I don't know what is.

How many of the GPGers remember that season and can share their memories of that?

 

[BS7Bee]

Whilst a slightly different case, I'm curious what @larrysigny thought of the Ivan Toney free kick foam adjustment? Because I thought it was a beautiful moment of sporting triumph over Notts Forest.

 

[larrysigny]

Whilst a slightly different case, I'm curious what @larrysigny thought of the Ivan Toney free kick foam adjustment? Because I thought it was a beautiful moment of sporting triumph over Notts Forest.

He cheated. What he did was against the rules of the game - and I'm sad that you thought it "a beautiful triumph".

 

[Vid]

Diego Armando Maradona Franco.....cheat.

 

[nocoat]

He cheated. What he did was against the rules of the game - and I'm sad that you thought it "a beautiful triumph".

Let’s change our name to Corinthian tw8 Casuals !

 

[Brentford Bob]

I want Brentford to win - pretty much at all costs.
If that means Ivan moving a bit of foam or Ghoddos falling over in the box, then I’m all for it.

I had a dream once that Mitrovic was about to score a winning goal for Fulham at Griffin Park, I jumped over the paddock barrier and took him out above the knee. The life ban was worth it.

 

[larrysigny]

I want Brentford to win - pretty much at all costs.
If that means Ivan moving a bit of foam or Ghoddos falling over in the box, then I’m all for it.

I had a dream once that Mitrovic was about to score a winning goal for Fulham at Griffin Park, I jumped over the paddock barrier and took him out above the knee. The life ban was worth it.

Accepting a life ban fo the sake of one goal? Is it against the rules to say I think you're a f---ing idiot?

 

[aawharris]

I would love to live in your World Larry.
I bet the flowers all smell beautiful and its always sunny and warm.

 

[nocoat]

Accepting a life ban fo the sake of one goal? Is it against the rules to say I think you're a f---ing idiot?

Glad I wasn't next to you in the trenches!

In actual fact I am glad I wasn't in the trenches!

 

[Brentford Bob]

Accepting a life ban fo the sake of one goal? Is it against the rules to say I think you're a f---ing idiot?

???

Larry, it was a dream, you silly sod.

 

[tfel63]

If you don't understand the basic idea of sportsmanship it's no use trying to answer.

'sportspersonship' shurely (ed)

 

[larrysigny]

I would love to live in your World Larry.
I bet the flowers all smell beautiful and its always sunny and warm.

Come on in - it's a world where the flowers smell beautiful and The Bees aways win.......using skill. But it does get bloody cold sometimes..

 

[whyteleafebee76]

I want Brentford to win - pretty much at all costs.
If that means Ivan moving a bit of foam or Ghoddos falling over in the box, then I’m all for it.

I had a dream once that Mitrovic was about to score a winning goal for Fulham at Griffin Park, I jumped over the paddock barrier and took him out above the knee. The life ban was worth it.

That is a truly beautiful dream squire, I hope you didnt wake up before Mitrovic was stretchered off?

 

[OhBeehave]

He cheated. What he did was against the rules of the game - and I'm sad that you thought it "a beautiful triumph".

If he'd moved it further forward, that would be cheating. He moved it sideways, I see no problem with that. The foam is to indicate where the offence occurred. Moving a foot or two forward is cheating, however, it's done frequently in the middle of the pitch by all players, and the referees let it go.

 

[Banana]

He cheated. What he did was against the rules of the game - and I'm sad that you thought it "a beautiful triumph".

Where do the laws say that it is not permitted to move foam please Larry?

 

[larrysigny]

Where do the laws say that it is not permitted to move foam please Larry?

I don't think they do actually mention foam - but the ref puts the stuff down as a marker of where the free kick has to be taken. And as I'm sure you knew perfectly well, rule 13: 2 (procedures) says that: "All free kicks are taken from the place e offence occurred."
Ivan moved the ball showing dissent from the ref's decision - at least a yellow card and possibly even a red.

 

[Banana]

I don't think they do actually mention foam

There you go. Ivan's out of jail.

 

[A Real Mysteron]

Accepting a life ban fo the sake of one goal? Is it against the rules to say I think you're a f---ing idiot?

You’ve cracked.