Our Midfield

[Andy_Mc_is_God]

Brentford fan in peace here.
Great result, performance and point last night at BHA but can any of the great and good on here please explain something for me?
I’m ’old school’ and played at a reasonable standard and have always believed that a game is won or lost in midfield.
A devout disciple of 4-4-2 that pivots well but I am flexible enough to see how 5-3-2 works when you have good wingbacks; but I just can’t see how our midfield is supposed to function in last night’s 4-3-3 formation?
All of our midfields are great players, and run their arses off, but I just don’t see how it’s supposed to work when one of them is assigned the job of CF and closing down the keeper during the high-press.
Damsgaard had a great game (MoM IMO) but as soon as they beat the press they were through our midfield like it wasn’t there ?
With both KLP and MR having their hands-full tracking good wingers/WB’s both VJ and CN were over run and it appeared that they had rubbish games because they were continually chasing the ball and had players running at them.
Can someone please explain?
Regards
Perplexed of Petworth

 

[Beefletch]

Brentford fan in peace here.
Great result, performance and point last night at BHA but can any of the great and good on here please explain something for me?
I’m ’old school’ and played at a reasonable standard and have always believed that a game is won or lost in midfield.
A devout disciple of 4-4-2 that pivots well but I am flexible enough to see how 5-3-2 works when you have good wingbacks; but I just can’t see how our midfield is supposed to function in last night’s 4-3-3 formation?
All of our midfields are great players, and run their arses off, but I just don’t see how it’s supposed to work when one of them is assigned the job of CF and closing down the keeper during the high-press.
Damsgaard had a great game (MoM IMO) but as soon as they beat the press they were through our midfield like it wasn’t there ?
With both KLP and MR having their hands-full tracking good wingers/WB’s both VJ and CN were over run and it appeared that they had rubbish games because they were continually chasing the ball and had players running at them.
Can someone please explain?
Regards
Perplexed of Petworth

I know exactly what you mean .I was discussing this with a friend this morning having both watched the game on TV .As you say it isn’t anything to do with the quality of our midfield so it has to be a formation/ system problem .Clearly if you had an extra body in midfield , which would mean sacrificing a forward, say Schade, then you would hope the midfield would be less porous given it was the right player .
I’m sure TF & his team must see what is obviously a problem, here’s hoping they find a solution ?

 

[A Real Mysteron]

I will probably get piled on here, but I think we surrender midfield in pretty much every game.
Teams play through us at will, and we back off and back off from runners.
It must be a tactic to help with our counter attacking, but it frustrates me to death.

 

[JANORAK]

I know exactly what you mean .I was discussing this with a friend this morning having both watched the game on TV .As you say it isn’t anything to do with the quality of our midfield so it has to be a formation/ system problem .Clearly if you had an extra body in midfield , which would mean sacrificing a forward, say Schade, then you would hope the midfield would be less porous given it was the right player .
I’m sure TF & his team must see what is obviously a problem, here’s hoping they find a solution ?

A few days ago, someone on here was selecting their team in what appeared to be a 4-4-3 formation. I’m sure that would help….

 

[WARFIELD BEE]

Schade needs to press more, then MD can concentrate on midfield, I am longing for when we have a LB so KLP can move back up.

 

[1970 bee]

A few days ago, someone on here was selecting their team in what appeared to be a 4-4-3 formation. I’m sure that would help….

Definite advantage to have 12 v 11

 

[A Real Mysteron]

Definite advantage to have 12 v 11

It’s revolutionary stuff.

 

[Andy_Mc_is_God]

I will probably get piled on here, but I think we surrender midfield in pretty much every game.
Teams play through us at will, and we back off and back off from runners.
It must be a tactic to help with our counter attacking, but it frustrates me to death.

I think the same @A Real Mysteron
Does it mean that the tactics are working perfect and there’s nothing to explain?
Like you, it frustrates the hell out of me.

 

[Hippobee]

I will probably get piled on here, but I think we surrender midfield in pretty much every game.
Teams play through us at will, and we back off and back off from runners.
It must be a tactic to help with our counter attacking, but it frustrates me to death.

Don't disagree. Even against the likes of Wolves, Soton and Ipswich, our midfield was cut through, same as the first half last night.

All I'd say in reply to the OP is that our press in the first half last night was half-hearted. It often seemed to be only 1 of 3 making a proper go of it and as we know, a press only works if you all go together. It improved in the 2nd half, but Brighton also tired. We should probably give Brighton some credit too, as they are one of the best footballing sides in the league.

Most will remember PG's 'Pace and power' quote just after we got promoted. Damsgaard is showing both. Neither Norgaard or Janelt have pace as one of their attributes. Yarmo shows potential. Onyeka was meant to be the answer to that. He had both, but just not enough ball-playing skill.

 

[TorbayBee]

The issue for me is the lack of good full backs working confidently in tandem with our wide players. That would squeeze the opposition midfield into the middle where we can better engage either them. At the moment Roseville and KLP are not confident enough to command the wide area. Albeit a good performance by Mads last night. We have got by waiting for the FB situation to be resolved I think a full back will be incoming this window, probably Reguillon.

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

Brentford fan in peace here.
Great result, performance and point last night at BHA but can any of the great and good on here please explain something for me?
I’m ’old school’ and played at a reasonable standard and have always believed that a game is won or lost in midfield.
A devout disciple of 4-4-2 that pivots well but I am flexible enough to see how 5-3-2 works when you have good wingbacks; but I just can’t see how our midfield is supposed to function in last night’s 4-3-3 formation?
All of our midfields are great players, and run their arses off, but I just don’t see how it’s supposed to work when one of them is assigned the job of CF and closing down the keeper during the high-press.
Damsgaard had a great game (MoM IMO) but as soon as they beat the press they were through our midfield like it wasn’t there ?
With both KLP and MR having their hands-full tracking good wingers/WB’s both VJ and CN were over run and it appeared that they had rubbish games because they were continually chasing the ball and had players running at them.
Can someone please explain?
Regards
Perplexed of Petworth

A tad confused here?
Assigned the job of CF?! That’s Wissa job, MD presses like MJ would if he were in the team.

the 4-3-3 relies on the wide forwards to drop in and help the 3 in the middle out of possession.

I’ve noticed recently that our issue has been the VJ and YY are often caught out of position and end up chasing back leaving CN on his own.

I don’t think we have an issue, but atm we are struggling with the 8 role and CN and MD are having to do a lot of graft.

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

The issue for me is the lack of good full backs working confidently in tandem with our wide players. That would squeeze the opposition midfield into the middle where we can better engage either them. At the moment Roseville and KLP are not confident enough to command the wide area. Albeit a good performance by Mads last night. We have got by waiting for the FB situation to be resolved I think a full back will be incoming this window, probably Reguillon.

Spot on. And we actually saw that when Mads pushed on last night it penned Brighton back and we had more control.

 

[jbee]

A tad confused here?
Assigned the job of CF?! That’s Wissa job, MD presses like MJ would if he were in the team.

the 4-3-3 relies on the wide forwards to drop in and help the 3 in the middle out of possession.

I’ve noticed recently that our issue has been the VJ and YY are often caught out of position and end up chasing back leaving CN on his own.

I don’t think we have an issue, but atm we are struggling with the 8 role and CN and MD are having to do a lot of graft.

Our formation does become a 4-4-2 out of possession a lot of the time.

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

Our formation does become a 4-4-2 out of possession a lot of the time.

Yes, it’s not rigid.

still think we are struggling with consistency with the 8 role.

 

[brentfordfc4ever]

I suspect there will be an overhaul of the midfield next season. Some of the new players are already in the building.

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

In agreement with @Andy_Mc_is_God . I said early on last night that I thought the high press was a mistake against that side. The high press is exactly what they are looking for. They are absolute masters at bringing it on and then playing through it. We were suckered every time and left with our pants down. We have to spot this, back off and limit space in midfield. Keep everyone goalside of the ball as far as is possible. IMO

 

[WARFIELD BEE]

In agreement with @Andy_Mc_is_God . I said early on last night that I thought the high press was a mistake against that side. The high press is exactly what they are looking for. They are absolute masters at bringing it on and then playing through it. We were suckered every time and left with our pants down. We have to spot this, back off and limit space in midfield. Keep everyone goalside of the ball as far as is possible. IMO

I did note though their Keeper kept waiting for our forwards to press and they often refused, so much so the Brighton fans were getting frustrated that he was holding on to the ball too long.

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

I did note though their Keeper kept waiting for our forwards to press and they often refused, so much so the Brighton fans were getting frustrated that he was holding on to the ball too long.

I must have missed this. I thought I saw Wissa go after the keeper every time.

 

[JANORAK]

I did note though their Keeper kept waiting for our forwards to press and they often refused, so much so the Brighton fans were getting frustrated that he was holding on to the ball too long.

Their other tactic is short first pass to Dunk (he’s usually up at the top for ‘most passes’). Were we cutting off that option?

 

[Andy_Mc_is_God]

I know exactly what you mean .I was discussing this with a friend this morning having both watched the game on TV .As you say it isn’t anything to do with the quality of our midfield so it has to be a formation/ system problem .Clearly if you had an extra body in midfield , which would mean sacrificing a forward, say Schade, then you would hope the midfield would be less porous given it was the right player .
I’m sure TF & his team must see what is obviously a problem, here’s hoping they find a solution ?

Possibly not a ‘problem’ but part of the master plan @Beefletch
See post #3

 

[jlove]

Yes, it’s not rigid.

still think we are struggling with consistency with the 8 role.

It’s never rigid, however the media try to bracket it. In our 4-3-3, one or both our wide attackers will drop back to make a 4-5-1… but that may allow a midfielder to drop deeper into a 5-4-1… never rigid lines like a Dyche team. As you say, the main thing we’re seeing is the lack of an 8, really the lack of Jensen who’s quick enough to fill holes when defending and able to get a pass forward and get up to support when attacking.

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

It’s never rigid, however the media try to bracket it. In our 4-3-3, one or both our wide attackers will drop back to make a 4-5-1… but that may allow a midfielder to drop deeper into a 5-4-1… never rigid lines like a Dyche team. As you say, the main thing we’re seeing is the lack of an 8, really the lack of Jensen who’s quick enough to fill holes when defending and able to get a pass forward and get up to support when attacking.

100%

Jensen has been a real loss and IMO a different player to MD. I think the 3 would be CN MJ and MD.

TF must be so frustrated with the lack of consistent options.

 

[WesHa]

I will probably get piled on here, but I think we surrender midfield in pretty much every game.
Teams play through us at will, and we back off and back off from runners.
It must be a tactic to help with our counter attacking, but it frustrates me to death.

Catch 22 isn’t it do we go back to 2 up front like has been suggested play 5 at the back and play on the counter or 4 on the middle and like last year play on the counter ? Think either way if you are pushed back like we have been not so exciting when it’s not going well horses for courses . Long and short football is thankfully never predictable which makes it great !

 

[whyteleafebee76]

In agreement with @Andy_Mc_is_God . I said early on last night that I thought the high press was a mistake against that side. The high press is exactly what they are looking for. They are absolute masters at bringing it on and then playing through it. We were suckered every time and left with our pants down. We have to spot this, back off and limit space in midfield. Keep everyone goalside of the ball as far as is possible. IMO

We executed it much better 2nd half and Brighton found it very difficult to play out from the back. The high press is really effective when we get it spot on.

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

We executed it much better 2nd half and Brighton found it very difficult to play out from the back. The high press is really effective when we get it spot on.

I’m just obviously reading this different to everyone else, cos I didn’t see it like that at all. What I saw was us continually getting caught in the trap they had baited. They are brilliant at playing through the press and emerging out the other side with space and numbers then stacked in their favour. We got a fantastic draw, but this was largely down to last ditch defending and excellent keeping. In reality, we were often exposed at the back, with defenders having to work without cover. On another day, some of those chances are converted. Thank god it was a Brighton side who have recently been firing blanks.

 

[Greybeard]

I will probably get piled on here, but I think we surrender midfield in pretty much every game.
Teams play through us at will, and we back off and back off from runners.
It must be a tactic to help with our counter attacking, but it frustrates me to death.

It's what I feared would happen back in august. We haven't got the legs in midfield and give the opposition way too much room to play in.

The obvious answer is 4-4-2 to provide another body in midfield. That or push the back line five yards further forward to compress space in midfield. Though you might struggle to persuade the likes of Mer or Pinnock to push up these days!

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

I’m just obviously reading this different to everyone else, cos I didn’t see it like that at all. What I saw was us continually getting caught in the trap they had baited. They are brilliant at playing through the press and emerging out the other side with space and numbers then stacked in their favour. We got a fantastic draw, but this was largely down to last ditch defending and excellent keeping. In reality, we were often exposed at the back, with defenders having to work without cover. On another day, some of those chances are converted. Thank god it was a Brighton side who have recently been firing blanks.

We do forget that Brighton are a very good team.

One thing that stands out to me is how often we also give the ball away is easy situations.

We need a better ball player in the 8 role alongside MD. Then VJ and CN can rotate in the 6 role.

We work so hard to then give the ball straight back.

Not having proper wing backs is really hurting us.

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

We do forget that Brighton are a very good team.

Absolutely! Don’t play to the strengths of a very good side. Employing the high press against expert practitioners is playing to a strength imo.

 

[WARFIELD BEE]

I’m just obviously reading this different to everyone else, cos I didn’t see it like that at all. What I saw was us continually getting caught in the trap they had baited. They are brilliant at playing through the press and emerging out the other side with space and numbers then stacked in their favour. We got a fantastic draw, but this was largely down to last ditch defending and excellent keeping. In reality, we were often exposed at the back, with defenders having to work without cover. On another day, some of those chances are converted. Thank god it was a Brighton side who have recently been firing blanks.

If you had a chance to watch the latter stages again I think you would see we resisted getting sucked in, making it look like keeper was wasting time
which played in our favour.

 

[whyteleafebee76]

I’m just obviously reading this different to everyone else, cos I didn’t see it like that at all. What I saw was us continually getting caught in the trap they had baited. They are brilliant at playing through the press and emerging out the other side with space and numbers then stacked in their favour. We got a fantastic draw, but this was largely down to last ditch defending and excellent keeping. In reality, we were often exposed at the back, with defenders having to work without cover. On another day, some of those chances are converted. Thank god it was a Brighton side who have recently been firing blanks.

1st half yes, 2nd half no. The reason their keeper was so hesitant was because we closed off his outlets. Add to that Collins was first to the ball 2 or 3 times when balls were knocked to Pedro 2nd half because he was pressing so well. We stopped them playing, tactically we got it nearly spot on.