Paul Ince

Paul Ince

It is not racist to employ someone on the basis of their ability rather than colour.

If you employ someone on the basis of skin colour and not ability, then that is positive racism, which is worse.
 

Paul Ince

sonofabee said:
Re point number 2- agree with you and be very interested to see stats and percentages as most managers are 40+ and ex footballers and I would suspect that the percentage of qualified black coaches/Managers will increase significantly in next few years as more significantly more black players in the game in last twenty years than in 70's and 80's.
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Not sure exactly how many more black players there are now than in the 70's/80's etc

But in any case, if the figures were, say, 10% in 1970, 15% in 1990 and 20% now, why has the number of black Managers in the game never reached even 5% at any stage in the last 44 years?

And you predict that the percentage will increase "significantly in the next few years". Considering so many (white) players have stepped from playing into their first job in Management, with maybe only a couple of years Coaching/acquiring Badges in between (sometimes not even that), why could this not already have happened for black players during, say, the last 10 years*?

Or do you think something has changed recently during that period to make a substantial difference to the next ten?

I'd like to think you're right, but see absolutely no sign of it myself.

For myself, I doubt that many Chairmen/Owners are consciously racist in shunning black candidates solely because of their colour, but suspect that far too many still harbour a subconscious view that black candidates "may be OK when it comes to playing the game, but they're not really cut out for Managing in it" (due to background, education, contacts, social skills, or whatever other bollox they want to come out with to reinforce their prejudices).

Which if I'm right means the only things which could change this mindset significantly is if:
(a ) the Government intervenes with Quotas or Affirmative Action; or
(b ) a 'black Alex Ferguson' emerges; or
(c ) British Football adopts a version of the NFL's 2003 'Rooney Rule' - "At the start of the 2006 season, the overall percentage of African American coaches had jumped to 22%, up from 6% prior to the Rooney Rule" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule )

Of these three, I don't think (a ) is at all likely, or even desirable and I fear (b ) must be so statistically unlikely as to be discounted.

I suspect (c ) may have an outside chance of being adopted and could prove beneficial if it were, but even then, it is hardly the perfect answer (imo) - http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...ng-job-done/Z8kX8KPbDtKO0gIzrcesmI/story.html


* - You point out that most Managers are 40+, but most players retire in their early/mid 30's, so that those retiring 10 years ago will all now be 40+ and with a high percentage of black people in their ranks. Yet 2014's Managers are still overwhelmingly white. This simply doesn't add up.
 
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Paul Ince

JBN said:
If you employ someone on the basis of skin colour and not ability, then that is positive racism, which is worse.
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I see no evidence that black people are benefitting from positive racism when it comes to getting Management jobs in Football, so I'm not sure why you bring that up.

The real problem is that there may be (white) Owners/Chairmen out there who are employing white people at least partly "on the basis of skin colour and not ability".

Otherwise there wouldn't be so few (able) black managers in the game, and so many (crap) white managers.
 
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Paul Ince

Perhaps it has eff all do with skin colour and is based on ability.

Theres 20 clubs in the top flight English League and less than half have English managers, the rest are foreign. OK they may be a white shade of pale, but they are foreign.
 

Paul Ince

JBN said:
Perhaps it has eff all do with skin colour and is based on ability.

Theres 20 clubs in the top flight English League and less than half have English managers, the rest are foreign. OK they may be a white shade of pale, but they are foreign.
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If it were all to do with ability, not skin colour, then why are only 5% (Hughton) of EPL Managers black, when 20%+ of present and recent former players are black?

Or do you think that black footballers are inherently less able to make the transition than their white counterparts? :eek:

As for the overseas managers coming in, why aren't English clubs recruiting black former players from abroad? Take Spurs, for example. In recent years they have appointed AVB/Portugal, Jol/Holland, Ramos/Spain, Santini/France and Gross/Switzerland from abroad. Each of these is from a country with a high percentage of black footballers, yet each is white.

Of course, they could argue that they are only recruiting from the ranks of existing European managers, who are overwhelmingly white, and that if there was a talented black European manager out there, they'd go for him, too.

But I suspect that there aren't many black managers plying their trade in Europe for pretty much the same reasons there aren't many over here, either.
 

Paul Ince

I think all discussions on racism and lack of opportunities for 'black' managers need to take place independently of any reference to Ince. He is a one-off.
 

Paul Ince

JBN said:
Maybe they're not good enough. :shrug:
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What, and the likes of Brian Kidd, Steve Kean, Sammy Lee, Gary Megson, Owen Coyle, Paul Jewell, Chris Hutchings, Phil Neal Lawrie Sanchez and Phil Brown were (to quote just a few names from the very top of a very long list of overwhelmingly white Managers).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Premier_League_managers

If that List proves anything, it is that Chairmen/Owners are pretty crap at appointing Managers. There are probably a number of reasons for this, one of which will be that they don't recruit from the whole of the talent pool available to them. Which in English football's case, includes the 20%+ of candidates who may be black.

It reminds me of the old story of Jock Stein, when he was asked which of a promising Catholic player or a promising Protestant player, he'd sign first for Celtic. "The Protestant", he instantly replied, "since I know Rangers will never sign the Catholic".

Which probably explains why that as well as the best Catholic players in Glasgow, Rangers also missed out on Prods such as Danny McGrain, Kenny Dalglish and Tommy Gemmill.

Or maybe they just "weren't good enough" for Ibrox, along with the likes of Jimmy Johnston, Billy McNeill or Tommy Burns etc?
 

Paul Ince

westwing said:
Yeh, and they're aint many Chinese Managers either, racist pigs them football chairmen !!!
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The point is that the vast majority of Managers are appointed from the ranks of former Footballers, and with so many present and recent Footballers being black, then unless* you think black people are somehow inherently unsuited to Management, you would expect a similar percentage of black Managers to be recruited.

Whereas hardly any footballers are Chinese, so it would be unusual to see a lot of Chinese Managers.

Of course, you might ask why there are so few Chinese footballers, but that is a separate question.



* - I sincerely hope you don't...:eek:
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
The point is that the vast majority of Managers are appointed from the ranks of former Footballers, and with so many present and recent Footballers being black, then unless* you think black people are somehow inherently unsuited to Management, you would expect a similar percentage of black Managers to be recruited.

Whereas hardly any footballers are Chinese, so it would be unusual to see a lot of Chinese Managers.

Of course, you might ask why there are so few Chinese footballers, but that is a separate question.



* - I sincerely hope you don't...:eek:
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Paul Ince

I think that you have too find out why Black players are not taking coaching badges to one day become a manager. Clubs can't appoint someone if they don't apply or are qualified for the role.
 

Paul Ince


Ealing Bee,I think it would be helpful to consider the performance of ethnic minorities in business generally,as football now is certainly big business.The Asian community has an outstanding record in business,both small entrepreneur based enterprise where a lot started,and bigger corporations.This can also be witnessed in Asian ownership of football clubs.

However,as virtually no Asians play professional football in the UK,they are clearly not a potential source of management.The majority of ethnic minority footballers in the 70s/80s/90s were of Afro Carribean origin,and it is a fact of life that this group have underperformed in the wider social sphere,both educationally and in the commercial world.It is significant that very few have made their mark in business,no doubt linked to significant underperformance as a group educationally.

If you apply your logic to the FTSE 100 companies,racism is the reason that not one has a black CEO. I rather suspect this is not the case,very few would have climbed the corporate ladder,and put themselves in the position to be selected.

Agree entirely that the football establishment has given far to many,very limited ex players,the opportunity to manage,and thank goodness this is changing,and thick dinosaurs like Jewell are being replaced by intelligent individuals like our very own Mr.Warburton.

However,I don't believe English football is racist,would be rather unreal given the number of black players,I just don't think many credible candidates have put themselves forward,and those that have,Ince,Barnes,Rosenier to name a few,have hardly covered themselves in glory.
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
The point is that the vast majority of Managers are appointed from the ranks of former Footballers, and with so many present and recent Footballers being black, then unless* you think black people are somehow inherently unsuited to Management, you would expect a similar percentage of black Managers to be recruited.
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Assuming that playing for your country is the pinnacle of a players career,how many former England Internationals are managing football clubs?

Most of them go into media work.

A quick list of a few players with varying shades of skin colour:- Ian wright, Mark Bright, John Salako, John Barnes (failed manager), Alan Shearer (failed manager), Michael Owen, Jamie Carragher, Gary Linaker, Terry Butcher (failed at BFC), Ray Wilkins (Coaching staff at Chelsea and Fulham), Les Ferdinand (coaching staff at Spurs), David Batty, Jamie Rednapp.
 

Paul Ince

Gee Bee said:
I think that you have too find out why Black players are not taking coaching badges to one day become a manager. Clubs can't appoint someone if they don't apply or are qualified for the role.
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If the 92 football clubs have squads of 25 and assume they have that again in other playing formats, there could be over 4,500 players sloshing around in the top four leagues.

There are only 92 top clubs which require a manager.

I'd be more concerned about the number of ex England Internationals that are not in management. Paul Ince and Terry Butcher about the only ones.
 

Paul Ince

Gee Bee said:
I think that you have too find out why Black players are not taking coaching badges to one day become a manager. Clubs can't appoint someone if they don't apply or are qualified for the role.
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Perhaps some aren't bothering to take the badges, or apply if they do have them, because they look around at the existing situation and conclude it's pretty pointless? I mean, they must talk amongst themselves and hear of cases where distinguished and well-qualified candidates have applied for a job and not even got a reply, then saw the job going to someone from the same old list of people who had failed at their last job.

And as for Qualifications, look at eg Spurs, where Tim Sherwood was recently appointed, despite not yet having the requisite Badges.

Or at the other end of the scale, try Accrington: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25811747
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee,

In 1974 there were only half a dozen black players in 92 league teams squads and by the 80's it will still have been a couple only in most teams. Given it's a young mans game and assuming they have a career of circa 10 years or so and most managers are 40+, it's far more likely that as a huge increase in black players in the 90's it's the next 10 years when we'll start seeing more black coaches as long as they take their badges?
 

Paul Ince

kewbee said:
Ealing Bee,I think it would be helpful to consider the performance of ethnic minorities in business generally,as football now is certainly big business.The Asian community has an outstanding record in business,both small entrepreneur based enterprise where a lot started,and bigger corporations.This can also be witnessed in Asian ownership of football clubs.

However,as virtually no Asians play professional football in the UK,they are clearly not a potential source of management.The majority of ethnic minority footballers in the 70s/80s/90s were of Afro Carribean origin,and it is a fact of life that this group have underperformed in the wider social sphere,both educationally and in the commercial world.It is significant that very few have made their mark in business,no doubt linked to significant underperformance as a group educationally.

If you apply your logic to the FTSE 100 companies,racism is the reason that not one has a black CEO. I rather suspect this is not the case,very few would have climbed the corporate ladder,and put themselves in the position to be selected.

Agree entirely that the football establishment has given far to many,very limited ex players,the opportunity to manage,and thank goodness this is changing,and thick dinosaurs like Jewell are being replaced by intelligent individuals like our very own Mr.Warburton.

However,I don't believe English football is racist,would be rather unreal given the number of black players,I just don't think many credible candidates have put themselves forward,and those that have,Ince,Barnes,Rosenier to name a few,have hardly covered themselves in glory.
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No doubt it's true that Asians may be over-represented in Business and Afro-Caribbeans under-represented. But the white working class is similarly under-represented, for many of the same reasons.

But if you look at Football, the great majority of players, whether black or white, are working class. For example, someone looked at a recent England squad of 25(?), and it was almost exclusively working-class. For example, only one had gone to a fee paying school and that was Frank Lampard! Compare that with eg the England Rugby or Cricket teams.

Yet whereas Business generally overlooks the white working class when making managerial appointments, Football is quite happy to appoint footballers from a working class background as Managers, so long as they are white.

As for FTSE 100 Boardrooms, they are not representative of anything other, perhaps, than a very narrow section of the population which is white, middle-class, privately educated and male, so I fail to see their relevance to football's situation.

kewbee said:
However,I don't believe English football is racist,would be rather unreal given the number of black players,I just don't think many credible candidates have put themselves forward,and those that have,Ince,Barnes,Rosenier to name a few,have hardly covered themselves in glory.
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I don't believe English football to be "racist", either. But "English football" represents a very wide spectrum. What I am talking about are the 92 Chairmen/Owners, who are hardly typical of the whole of the game (rather like as the 100 FTSE Chairmen are not really typical of the millions of people who are involved in Business at all levels throughout England, either).

Rather I suspect that this relatively small group is subconsciously or unintentionally racist, in that they don't actively dislike or discriminate against black people managing their clubs, they just fail to question the stereotypes which some people use to "explain" [sic] why blacks aren't suitable for, or interested in becoming, Managers. And so they don't even consider them.

As for the fact that the clubs employ so many black players etc, I've no doubt they would employ eg Martians, so long as they could deliver 30 goals a season. But employing hired help on the field is one thing, inviting them into the Boardroom, or socialising with them down the Golf Club etc, is quite something else.
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
Not sure exactly how many more black players there are now than in the 70's/80's etc

But in any case, if the figures were, say, 10% in 1970, 15% in 1990 and 20% now, why has the number of black Managers in the game never reached even 5% at any stage in the last 44 years?

And you predict that the percentage will increase "significantly in the next few years". Considering so many (white) players have stepped from playing into their first job in Management, with maybe only a couple of years Coaching/acquiring Badges in between (sometimes not even that), why could this not already have happened for black players during, say, the last 10 years*?

Or do you think something has changed recently during that period to make a substantial difference to the next ten?

I'd like to think you're right, but see absolutely no sign of it myself.

For myself, I doubt that many Chairmen/Owners are consciously racist in shunning black candidates solely because of their colour, but suspect that far too many still harbour a subconscious view that black candidates "may be OK when it comes to playing the game, but they're not really cut out for Managing in it" (due to background, education, contacts, social skills, or whatever other bollox they want to come out with to reinforce their prejudices).

Which if I'm right means the only things which could change this mindset significantly is if:
(a ) the Government intervenes with Quotas or Affirmative Action; or
(b ) a 'black Alex Ferguson' emerges; or
(c ) British Football adopts a version of the NFL's 2003 'Rooney Rule' - "At the start of the 2006 season, the overall percentage of African American coaches had jumped to 22%, up from 6% prior to the Rooney Rule" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule )

Of these three, I don't think (a ) is at all likely, or even desirable and I fear (b ) must be so statistically unlikely as to be discounted.

I suspect (c ) may have an outside chance of being adopted and could prove beneficial if it were, but even then, it is hardly the perfect answer (imo) - http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...ng-job-done/Z8kX8KPbDtKO0gIzrcesmI/story.html


* - You point out that most Managers are 40+, but most players retire in their early/mid 30's, so that those retiring 10 years ago will all now be 40+ and with a high percentage of black people in their ranks. Yet 2014's Managers are still overwhelmingly white. This simply doesn't add up.
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Nothing like 10% of players were black I n 1970's - early 70's it was Clyde Best and Ade Coker at West Ham and by mid to late WBA Batson, Regis and Cunningham had started to break through but it was very small minority until the 80's.
 

Paul Ince

sonofabee said:
Ealing Bee,

In 1974 there were only half a dozen black players in 92 league teams squads and by the 80's it will still have been a couple only in most teams. Given it's a young mans game and assuming they have a career of circa 10 years or so and most managers are 40+, it's far more likely that as a huge increase in black players in the 90's it's the next 10 years when we'll start seeing more black coaches as long as they take their badges?
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OK, let's skip over the 70's and 80's, if you like.

By the 90's there was a high percentage of black players in the English game (certainly more than their numbers in the wider population would normally lead you to expect.) - and that was 20 or 25 years ago.

Since it doesn't take 20 years or anything like it to progress from retiring as a player, to becoming qualified to Manage (badges, coaching experience, Assistant Manager etc), why are so few of the present crop of Managers black?

I can only think of three possible explanations.

1. Black ex-footballers are somehow inherently less up to becoming managers than their white counterparts;
2. They simply aren't interested in becoming Managers;
3. There are barriers to their becoming so.

For myself, I believe 1. to be nonsense - and offensive nonsense at that.

As for 2. I see no reason why black footballers, predominantly from a working class background, should be any less (or more) interested in continuing in the game as their white, working class teammates.

Which leaves 3.
 

Paul Ince

Maybe they don't need the sh*t that comes with being a manager. Lose one game and its a crisis. Lose two and your waiting for the chairmans/board vote of confidence etc etc.
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
OK, let's skip over the 70's and 80's, if you like.

By the 90's there was a high percentage of black players in the English game (certainly more than their numbers in the wider population would normally lead you to expect.) - and that was 20 or 25 years ago.

Since it doesn't take 20 years or anything like it to progress from retiring as a player, to becoming qualified to Manage (badges, coaching experience, Assistant Manager etc), why are so few of the present crop of Managers black?

I can only think of three possible explanations.

1. Black ex-footballers are somehow inherently less up to becoming managers than their white counterparts;
2. They simply aren't interested in becoming Managers;
3. There are barriers to their becoming so.

For myself, I believe 1. to be nonsense - and offensive nonsense at that.

As for 2. I see no reason why black footballers, predominantly from a working class background, should be any less (or more) interested in continuing in the game as their white, working class teammates.

Which leaves 3.
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You said the 90's was when black players were common place in every club in the country and the bulk would be in their early 20's so only reaching typical managers age. You have to remember that only a relatively small percentage of footballers go on and take their full coaching badges anyway and there are only 92 jobs to go round. Add to that very few Premiership jobs go to newly qualified English coaches so only 72 jobs to be had and lots of those to coaches with experience as well.
The point is there are significantly more black players in football nowadays but I'd like to know how many fully qualified black coaches - if they take their badges and interview well they will get every chance of jobs on the lower rungs first off so realistically you've only got circa 50 jobs to go for and I'll bet there still a lot more white managers out of work and applying for jobs than black so all proportionate ?
 

Paul Ince

sonofabee said:
You said the 90's was when black players were common place in every club in the country and the bulk would be in their early 20's so only reaching typical managers age. You have to remember that only a relatively small percentage of footballers go on and take their full coaching badges anyway and there are only 92 jobs to go round.
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The low ratio of Managerial places to Playing places also applies to white players as well.

In the end, if 10-20% of players over the last 20-odd years are/were black, it doesn't take more than 5-10 years to qualify for your first Managerial job, and Managers are drawn almost exclusively from the ranks of former players, then you might logically expect 10-20% of Managers to be black.

It has never reached anything like that, nor are there any signs of it becoming so in the near future.

Now I accept that this is a complex subject, so that there may well be more than one reason for this deficit. But until or unless you or someone else can point me to some convincing alternative reasons, I can only assume that Racism is a major factor, possibly even the major factor.

sonofabee said:
Add to that very few Premiership jobs go to newly qualified English coaches so only 72 jobs to be had and lots of those to coaches with experience as well.
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OK, for the sake of argument, I'll exclude the Prem.

sonofabee said:
The point is there are significantly more black players in football nowadays but I'd like to know how many fully qualified black coaches - if they take their badges and interview well they will get every chance of jobs on the lower rungs first off so realistically you've only got circa 50 jobs to go for and I'll bet there still a lot more white managers out of work and applying for jobs than black so all proportionate ?
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Anyone who wants to become a Manager knows that he ought to take his Badges first. Therefore if black former footballers are under-represented as Coaches, why should that be so?

Are you saying that a lower percentage of black footballers are interested in following a career path into Management than their white counterparts? After all, both will have dedicated 20-odd years to a playing career since leaving school, so I don't understand why they should be any less committed.

And as for your point about "interviewing well", surely the real the point is that black ex-players contend that they are much less likely than white ex-players even to be granted an interview?
 

Paul Ince

You have to say not just how many Black players have gone into management but how many are among coaching staff that then go onto management and more important want to
We for example have Osi in charge of our academy( having spoken to him and watched him on Beesplayer very business like) and doing a great job but does he want all the aggro of being a 1st team manager he like many others may enjoy more the Boys going onto win glory.
As an aside on this just how few black people are actually football supporters in attending games as spectators very few
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
The low ratio of Managerial places to Playing places also applies to white players as well.

In the end, if 10-20% of players over the last 20-odd years are/were black, it doesn't take more than 5-10 years to qualify for your first Managerial job, and Managers are drawn almost exclusively from the ranks of former players, then you might logically expect 10-20% of Managers to be black.

It has never reached anything like that, nor are there any signs of it becoming so in the near future.

Now I accept that this is a complex subject, so that there may well be more than one reason for this deficit. But until or unless you or someone else can point me to some convincing alternative reasons, I can only assume that Racism is a major factor, possibly even the major factor.

OK, for the sake of argument, I'll exclude the Prem.

Anyone who wants to become a Manager knows that he ought to take his Badges first. Therefore if black former footballers are under-represented as Coaches, why should that be so?

Are you saying that a lower percentage of black footballers are interested in following that career path than their white counterparts? After all, both will have dedicated 20-odd years to a playing career since leaving school, so I don't understand why they should be any less committed.

And as for your point about "interviewing well", surely the real the point is that black ex-players contend that they are much less likely than white ex-players even to be granted an interview?
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Based on what?

Until you know how many black qualified coaches taking their badges and applying for jobs you can't form an opinion?

If for every 50 people that apply for a job only 1 or 2 are black the law of averages suggests that with only circa 50 jobs up for grabs there aren't going to be many black managers. I'd like to know how many black players hold their badges, are you saying you believe they're being discouraged from taking their badges and if you are then I'd agree there's a problem.
 

Paul Ince

sonofabee said:
Based on what?

Until you know how many black qualified coaches taking their badges and applying for jobs you can't form an opinion?

If for every 50 people that apply for a job only 1 or 2 are black the law of averages suggests that with only circa 50 jobs up for grabs there aren't going to be many black managers. I'd like to know how many black players hold their badges, are you saying you believe they're being discouraged from taking their badges and if you are then I'd agree there's a problem.
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If disproportionately fewer black players are taking their Badges and applying for Managers' jobs etc, I feel that this is a symptom of the problem, not the cause of it.

That is, they are being discouraged from even trying, since they fear/know that the dice are loaded against them.

Otherwise, why would so few of them (pro-rata) seek to continue their career in the game after their playing days are over, compared with their white counterparts?

I am prepared to accept that there may be some* reasons other than Racism which could explain a certain disparity, but nowhere near sufficiently to explain 20% of black players, but only 2% of black Managers.


* - Not that I've actually heard any
 

Paul Ince

Paul Ince

Don't you all think that by constantly making race an issue you are part of the problem?

Ince is purely a poorly performing football manager.
 

Paul Ince

A Real Mysteron said:
Don't you all think that by constantly making race an issue you are part of the problem?

Ince is purely a poorly performing football manager.
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:sorted: He doesn't strike me as a humble bloke who is
likely to admit he's failed. Think he knew exactly what he was getting into, no one else wanted the job and no other in wanted him and they obviously didn't want him but to keep his son.
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
The low ratio of Managerial places to Playing places also applies to white players as well.

In the end, if 10-20% of players over the last 20-odd years are/were black, it doesn't take more than 5-10 years to qualify for your first Managerial job, and Managers are drawn almost exclusively from the ranks of former players, then you might logically expect 10-20% of Managers to be black.

It has never reached anything like that, nor are there any signs of it becoming so in the near future.

Now I accept that this is a complex subject, so that there may well be more than one reason for this deficit. But until or unless you or someone else can point me to some convincing alternative reasons, I can only assume that Racism is a major factor, possibly even the major factor.

OK, for the sake of argument, I'll exclude the Prem.

Anyone who wants to become a Manager knows that he ought to take his Badges first. Therefore if black former footballers are under-represented as Coaches, why should that be so?

Are you saying that a lower percentage of black footballers are interested in following a career path into Management than their white counterparts? After all, both will have dedicated 20-odd years to a playing career since leaving school, so I don't understand why they should be any less committed.

And as for your point about "interviewing well", surely the real the point is that black ex-players contend that they are much less likely than white ex-players even to be granted an interview?
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I'm asking for evidence and some stats to corroborate? I'd genuinely like to know how many qualified black coaches, how many have applied for managerial jobs and how many believe they are being unfairly treated. Sol Campbell has whinged about never being England manager but hasn't even done all his badges yet anyway and Ince has a giant chip on his shoulder and has had since he was a teenager when he realised his mum wasn't offering physiotherapy to the troops in Germany. lol
 

Paul Ince

sonofabee said:
I'm asking for evidence and some stats to corroborate? I'd genuinely like to know how many qualified black coaches, how many have applied for managerial jobs and how many believe they are being unfairly treated. Sol Campbell has whinged about never being England manager but hasn't even done all his badges yet anyway and Ince has a giant chip on his shoulder and has had since he was a teenager when he realised his mum wasn't offering physiotherapy to the troops in Germany. lol
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With c.25% of players being black, and barely 2.5% of Managers, in the absence of any other plausible reasons, I have made a prima facie case that black players face a degree of Racism when trying to become Managers in the English game.

Therefore if you are going to offer the counter-explanation that up to 10 times more white players may be taking their Badges and applying to become Managers etc than their black counterparts (pro rata), it should be up to you to produce the stats to back up that possible explanation (especially since neither you nor anyone else has suggested any good reason why they wouldn't want to qualify and apply in equivalent numbers).

In the meantime, here is some evidence for my case in the form of an Academic Study which considers the impact of Racism on this topic (seems to point towards it):
http://www.academia.edu/936722/Why_arent_there_more_black_football_managers

And here is some lighter, more anecdotal stuff:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20123376
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24725469
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24702729
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/9441854.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24603866
 
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Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
I have made a prima facie case that black players face a degree of Racism when trying to become Managers in the English game.
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At last. can we now get back to the topic of Paul Ince, horrible person and 5hite manager?
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
With c.25% of players being black, and barely 2.5% of Managers, in the absence of any other plausible reasons, I have made a prima facie case that black players face a degree of Racism when trying to become Managers in the English game.

Therefore if you are going to offer the counter-explanation that up to 10 times more white players may be taking their Badges and applying to become Managers etc than their black counterparts (pro rata), it should be up to you to produce the stats to back up that possible explanation (especially since neither you nor anyone else has suggested any good reason why they wouldn't want to qualify and apply in equivalent numbers).

In the meantime, here is some evidence for my case in the form of an Academic Study which considers the impact of Racism on this topic (seems to point towards it):
http://www.academia.edu/936722/Why_arent_there_more_black_football_managers

And here is some lighter, more anecdotal stuff:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20123376
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24725469
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24702729
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/9441854.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24603866
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Sorry if I didn't make clear, BBC sports pages headlines are not corroborative stats - I enquired as to how many fully qualified black coaches and how many had been unsuccessful in applying for jobs in comparison to equally qualified and experienced white coaches, no sign yet?
 

Paul Ince

sonofabee said:
Sorry if I didn't make clear, BBC sports pages headlines are not corroborative stats - I enquired as to how many fully qualified black coaches and how many had been unsuccessful in applying for jobs in comparison to equally qualified and experienced white coaches, no sign yet?
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If YOU are citing (an alleged) lack of qualified black coaches and Job Applications as a possible explanation for the severe under-representation of black people in Management etc, then it is up to YOU to provide the evidence to back it up.

Meanwhile, if those BBC Reports are nothing more than anecdotal (which I acknowledged), then the Academic Study which I also cited is more compelling.
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
If YOU are citing (an alleged) lack of qualified black coaches and Job Applications as a possible explanation for the severe under-representation of black people in Management etc, then it is up to YOU to provide the evidence to back it up.

Meanwhile, if those BBC Reports are nothing more than anecdotal (which I acknowledged), then the Academic Study which I also cited is more compelling.
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Is it me?

I've seen articles on Paul Ince, Jason Roberts and Michael Johnson stating it's tough being black in professional football but with no substance or proof to back up.

You still haven't answered my question- have you any evidence that black coaches are being discriminated against and white coaches are being awarded roles they haven't earnt. Don't reply with BS, show us proof
 

Paul Ince

Ealing Bee said:
If YOU are citing (an alleged) lack of qualified black coaches and Job Applications as a possible explanation for the severe under-representation of black people in Management etc, then it is up to YOU to provide the evidence to back it up.

Meanwhile, if those BBC Reports are nothing more than anecdotal (which I acknowledged), then the Academic Study which I also cited is more compelling.
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You've said it yourself, your argument is your opinion. You've been asked to back up with facts. The study is based on 1,000 people. That is 15% of a Bees gate. When it actually comes down to it, it is a lot less than 1% of those that go to football each week. Hardly representative.

It would have more credibility if it questioned non white players past and present and ask them why they choose not to go into management/media/coaching/football/whatever.

There may or may not be racism in the boardroom when appointing a manager, but when more than half of Premiership managers are not English, your case tends to stumble at the first hurdle.

As far as this topic is concerned, Paul Ince is a grade A Cock and shouldn't be allowed to manage, a great player, but not a manager. I felt the same way about Terry Butcher and he is a slightly litter shade on the old skin colour. As for Darren Ferguson, he ticks of lot of the 'What Ever You Do, Don't Employ Him As A Manager' boxes. Does that make me racist or realistic?
 
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Paul Ince

JBN said:
If the 92 football clubs have squads of 25 and assume they have that again in other playing formats, there could be over 4,500 players sloshing around in the top four leagues.

There are only 92 top clubs which require a manager.

I'd be more concerned about the number of ex England Internationals that are not in management. Paul Ince and Terry Butcher about the only ones.
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But its not just managers its coaching too. Coaching professionally can be at grass roots and there are thousands of jobs. Ex top players now earn so much that is the reason few stay in the game imho.
 

Paul Ince

JBN said:
You've said it yourself, your argument is your opinion. You've been asked to back up with facts. The study is based on 1,000 people. That is 15% of a Bees gate. When it actually comes down to it, it is a lot less than 1% of those that go to football each week. Hardly representative.

It would have more credibility if it questioned non white players past and present and ask them why they choose not to go into management/media/coaching/football/whatever.

There may or may not be racism in the boardroom when appointing a manager, but when more than half of Premiership managers are not English, your case tends to stumble at the first hurdle.

As far as this topic is concerned, Paul Ince is a grade A Cock and shouldn't be allowed to manage, a great player, but not a manager. I felt the same way about Terry Butcher and he is a slightly litter shade on the old skin colour. As for Darren Ferguson, he ticks of lot of the 'What Ever You Do, Don't Employ Him As A Manager' boxes. Does that make me racist or realistic?
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:sorted:
 

Paul Ince

Ince Jnr not in the squad yesterday. What a surprise.
 

Paul Ince

can see why people get bored by Ealing Bee :eek: banging on about a total non-issue. i am not quite bored enough to work out how many of the 92 have once had a black manager. are we approaching 50% yet? i'm out of touch so maybe i'm being wildly optimistic. but it's not like clubs are posting adverts with "only whites need apply" :rolleyes:
 

Paul Ince

Paul Ince kept Macclesfield up in League Two - good achievement.
He took MK Dons up from League Two and won the JPT, with a massive budget and they were a dirty side then.
Ince was a disaster at Blackburn.
He failed to take MK Dons up with a sizable budget and they were dirty then.
Ince was a disaster at Notts County. I recall they were lucky to finish the game with nine men and that game could have been abandoned due to them having five sent off.
He was a disaster at Blackpool. They lost nine in 10.

He's a poor manager. His sides are dirty and play horrible football. He got the Blackburn job because he was Paul Ince, a big name player who had had some success at MK Dons. A bit like why Di Canio got the Sunderland job - another poor manager.
 

Paul Ince

That game v Notts County was a sour nasty night. What was worse was Ince and Rae were standing looking bewildered at why the ref was blowing up every few minutes
 

Paul Ince

To Bee Someone said:
That game v Notts County was a sour nasty night. What was worse was Ince and Rae were standing looking bewildered at why the ref was blowing up every few minutes
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Ince and Rae spent the whole game snarling and intimidating the 4th official and lino - didn't we get a late equaliser?
 
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