Phil Holder

[scruff puppy pup]

The football was very direct, on its day exciting it was true, but we got found out in Division1/ Championship as there was no plan B.

I remember us getting outplayed at West Ham away when we hardly got the ball and thinking they were playing a different game to us.

Always thought it odd he didn't get another managers job but joined a long list of one club wonders I guess.

I don't think it's fair to say we got found out. We only got relegated on the final day of the season.
We got tonked by Hammers and a resurgent Newcastle, but then we also held Hammers to a goalless draw at our place.
More importantly (in terms of staying up) I remember us on a number of occasions not holding significant half-time leads. Barnsley and Tranmere away I think were two where we went in 2-0 to the good at half-time and then losing the game 3-2.
And then there was the home defeat to 9 man Grimsby when I think the score was 1-1 when they went down to 9 men.
And finally, Notts County at home, a very dodgy ref, an inexplicable length of injury time and Notts County scored with I think the last kick of the match.

...any one of those had gone our way, I think we would have stayed up.
Phil was gruff, a bit naive maybe, but don't forget we lost Holdsworth between the two divisions.

 

[ianallon]

If only Big Tel hadn't got injured...

 

[B2B]

If only Big Tel hadn't got injured...

Still have nightmares about hearing the news....

 

[Downbeat Bee]

His first two seasons were great excitement wise. Mistakes were made in Div1. We should have stayed up. Evans injury, Murray Jones, Manuel in midfield.

I was worried when I saw this thread that he might have died. The fact that I worried about that shows the retrospective respect I must have for him.

 

[Nick Hester]

'Where Are My Doubters'....

 

[Downbeat Bee]

'Where Are My Doubters'....

Any manager of ours can say that if they get promotion from the third division

 

[Chipper]

Just back this morning.
He was very honest about his time with us and accepted that things could have gone better.
He said that it was the away match at Barnsley that showed him that the team was not up for the fight, no matter what he tried it didn't work.
He also said that Martin Lange (sp?) didn't speak to him once during that season.

Lovely bloke, working in the flower trade now, has a stall on the New Kings Road.

 

[NigeriaRay]

'Where Are My Doubters'....

I remember that quote as being "where are the doubters now" which he said at the GP celebration in the aftermath of the win at Peterborough...and let's face it, there were a lot of doubters, particularly after Reading away when we came away with a 0-0 draw in a poor performance. Maybe not the best thing to say at that point but possibly understandable given the dreadful stick he got after Reading. I think I am right in saying that we then went on our 6 match end of season unbeaten run to clinch promotion.

Like other posters, he is the only manager to got us promoted to the second tier in my time (also the first to get us to the play offs), so I always remember his time fondly

 

[Bill Benn]

Just back this morning.
He was very honest about his time with us and accepted that things could have gone better.
He said that it was the away match at Barnsley that showed him that the team was not up for the fight, no matter what he tried it didn't work.
He also said that Martin Lange (sp?) didn't speak to him once during that season.

Lovely bloke, working in the flower trade now, has a stall on the New Kings Road.

Martin Lange was living in the states during that time and Gerry Potter was Chairman.Phil Holder the most successfull manager in the 50 odd years during my time supporting the club FFS.What did l do to deserve this.

 

[Chipper]

Martin Lange was living in the states during that time and Gerry Potter was Chairman.Phil Holder the most successfull manager in the 50 odd years during my time supporting the club FFS.What did l do to deserve this.

He did say this, but it was Lange that sacked him.

 

[wanderer paul]

He did say this, but it was Lange that sacked him.

Yes. As Martin Lange came back for the last couple of games IIRC. If only we had a Director/Chairman who knew what they were doing that December/January time in 91/92. We could've quite easily stayed up that season. Some Poor signings and, for some reason, a lack of fight toward the end, left the club just short of survival.

Phil Holder didn't do himself any favours with that speech. He could've just said, "thanks for believing we could do it and we did." instead of "where are the doubters now?"....... We were all standing in front of him.

Maybe one day soon we'll get back there. Would love another season or two in the Championship.

 

[Sultan]

I remember that quote as being "where are the doubters now" which he said at the GP celebration in the aftermath of the win at Peterborough.

Wasn't the famous 'doubters' speech recited outside the Hounslow Civic Centre after the parade?

 

[wanderer paul]

Wasn't the famous 'doubters' speech recited outside the Hounslow Civic Centre after the parade?

It was at GP. I'm pretty sure it was when the players came back from the Peterborough game. I don't think it was on the day the trophy was awarded either....

 

[kevalutonbee]

I don't think it's fair to say we got found out. We only got relegated on the final day of the season.
We got tonked by Hammers and a resurgent Newcastle, but then we also held Hammers to a goalless draw at our place.
More importantly (in terms of staying up) I remember us on a number of occasions not holding significant half-time leads. Barnsley and Tranmere away I think were two where we went in 2-0 to the good at half-time and then losing the game 3-2.
And then there was the home defeat to 9 man Grimsby when I think the score was 1-1 when they went down to 9 men.
And finally, Notts County at home, a very dodgy ref, an inexplicable length of injury time and Notts County scored with I think the last kick of the match.

...any one of those had gone our way, I think we would have stayed up.
Phil was gruff, a bit naive maybe, but don't forget we lost Holdsworth between the two divisions.

You missed the Millwall game off your list of tonkings

Didn't know Hunt had broken his ankle


Other than sitting by a pool in Egypt what is he upto these days?

 

[wanderer paul]

You missed the Millwall game off your list of tonkings

Didn't know Hunt had broken his ankle


Other than sitting by a pool in Egypt what is he upto these days?

I think Hunty got the cracked ankle bone from the Delap tackle/lunge in the cup match with Stoke? Which Delap subsequently got his red card rescinded?

 

[horshambees]

Remember Marcus Gayle missing a sitter agin Sunderland.I think the ball hit a 65 bus.If that had gone in then the 3-1 Barnsley win would have kept us up....memories.

 

[WarrenBee]

I don't think it's fair to say we got found out. We only got relegated on the final day of the season.
We got tonked by Hammers and a resurgent Newcastle, but then we also held Hammers to a goalless draw at our place.
More importantly (in terms of staying up) I remember us on a number of occasions not holding significant half-time leads. Barnsley and Tranmere away I think were two where we went in 2-0 to the good at half-time and then losing the game 3-2.
And then there was the home defeat to 9 man Grimsby when I think the score was 1-1 when they went down to 9 men.And finally, Notts County at home, a very dodgy ref, an inexplicable length of injury time and Notts County scored with I think the last kick of the match.

...any one of those had gone our way, I think we would have stayed up.
Phil was gruff, a bit naive maybe, but don't forget we lost Holdsworth between the two divisions.

I thought it was Swindon who went down to 9 men, and we ended up drawing 0-0 with them. We also never replaced Dean Holdsworth.

 

[Simon T]

I seem to remember the rot starting around the time we played Derby at home on Boxing Day. We picked up a lot of injuries that day and after that we had lots of players playing out of position (Bennett & Gayle at full back), got battered in a few games and started to slide down the table.

 

[WarrenBee]

The other thing that needs to be remembered, is that Holder's success was with the squad that Perryman had assembled the prevous season.

 

[EASTBRISTOLBEE7]

The other thing that needs to be remembered, is that Holder's success was with the squad that Perryman had assembled the prevous season.

Im glad you said it first because thats what i was going to say , phil was a lovely bloke but most of the better players were perrymans signings. When he had to sign his own players after departures or injuries it started to go pear shape.

 

[Travel Tavern Bee]

Im glad you said it first because thats what i was going to say , phil was a lovely bloke but most of the better players were perrymans signings. When he had to sign his own players after departures or injuries it started to go pear shape.

Like Murray Jones?

 

[ianallon]

The other thing that needs to be remembered, is that Holder's success was with the squad that Perryman had assembled the prevous season.

Yes, lots of respect for Perryman too - but he didn't get us promotion!

 

[SmiffyBee]

Why Sack Dodgin ?

 

[NigeriaRay]

Yes, lots of respect for Perryman too - but he didn't get us promotion!

Agreed, it was mostly Perryman's squad. This has been discussed on here before. The bottom line is that Perryman didn't get the "same" squad anywhere near the play offs, let alone promotion. The cup run of 88\89was Perryman's glory period and what a great run it was - I was at every game.

It always amazes me that people use the "Perryman" word as the whole reason as to why Holder got us promotion. Holder clearly had something about him that got extra out of the players.

I agree with an earlier poster (Bill Benn?) - the fact that he took us to our first ever play offs and to promotion the following season to the 2nd tier makes him our most successful manager in the last 50 years - for some reason, people on here seem to be unable to accept that

 

[WarrenBee]

Agreed, it was mostly Perryman's squad. This has been discussed on here before. The bottom line is that Perryman didn't get the "same" squad anywhere near the play offs, let alone promotion. The cup run of 88\89was Perryman's glory period and what a great run it was - I was at every game.

It always amazes me that people use the "Perryman" word as the whole reason as to why Holder got us promotion. Holder clearly had something about him that got extra out of the players.

I agree with an earlier poster (Bill Benn?) - the fact that he took us to our first ever play offs and to promotion the following season to the 2nd tier makes him our most successful manager in the last 50 years - for some reason, people on here seem to be unable to accept that

I thought we got to the play offs the season before we got promoted, but lost to Tranmere.

 

[Stanley]

I thought we got to the play offs the season before we got promoted, but lost to Tranmere.

We did but under Holder..

 

[Banana]

The "doubters" speech was DEFINITELY at GP after the coach had returned from London Road.

 

[absenteebee]

I didn't like Holder. Remember being baffled at some decisions and thinking '******' at his 'doubters' comment.

Thinking back now though, we've had another twenty years of nobody matching his achievement. I think its time then that I, and other doubters, give him a bit of kudos for that 92 promotion. Well done Noddy.

 

[2826 claire]

I remember us getting outplayed at West Ham away when we hardly got the ball and thinking they were playing a different game to us.

I managed to listen to his half time talk as there was a window by the staircase in the away end. It consisted of, "for f**ks sake, you're all f**king c**ting useless c**ts. Marcus, you f**king useless c**t get the f**king ball and you're all f**king ..." You get the picture. Oddly enough, it did not inspire and we went on to get absolutely slaughtered.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against the man but he got promotion by and large with a team formed by Perryman and was found to be fairly clueless when we went up.

 

[scruff puppy pup]

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against the man but he got promotion by and large with a team formed by Perryman and was found to be fairly clueless when we went up.

I think Phil Holder was the right man to get us up, but not to keep us there. Bit like Barry Fry maybe.
I think if Webb had been successful in taking us into the Championship, he would have had the nous to keep us there for a few seasons at least.
Perryman has gone on to do a similar behind the scenes job at Exeter.

Curiously, Perryman, Holder, Webb, Noades, Lewington and Andy Scott all have win percentages between 38% and 41%.
Holder's sides drew fewer and lost more, so amassed fewer points relatively speaking.

 

[Brentford Bob]

He's alright in my eyes. Whether they were Perryman's players or not, Phil was in charge of the Bees on what was possibly the greatest day and night of my life - and I've had two kids since.

The doubters speech was a mistake but he, along with the rest of the players was absolutely slaughtered by the the time that coach got back to GP - and deservedly so. It's fair to say that we've all said regrettable things when we've had a drink or two.

I'd happily sit down with the man and buy him a drink or two and discuss whether it was true that Richard Cadette "couldn't trap a bag of cement" - Phil's words, not mine.

 

[absenteebee]

Yeah, congrats to Noddy for the Hall of Fame induction.

 

[bees66]

Deano's goals got us up more than Holder, why Deano never got a new contract was baffling as we sold him for peanuts..with no sell on

 

[Les Beeavinu]

£700k wasn't it? hardly peanuts.

 

[Stanley]

Seems sad to me that was his first trip back to GP since he left, maybe he has been very bitter about it all?

 

[Sunbury Bee]

Deano's goals got us up more than Holder, why Deano never got a new contract was baffling as we sold him for peanuts..with no sell on

Nonsense. Also Deano was going to go no matter what the club did he made that very clear and as Les has said we got decent money for him.

 

[TW3Bee]

Congratulatations 'Noddy'.

 

[bees66]

£700k wasn't it? hardly peanuts.

Deano should have cost more Les, we was robbed! Holder never replaced him.. Sir Gary of Bliss went for peanuts and fat wombles manager said that once we signed him.. always Brentford

 

[bees66]

Nonsense. Also Deano was going to go no matter what the club did he made that very clear

the club didn't offer him a new contract Deano said. no bosman in those days:shrug:

 

[Sunbury Bee]

He was out of contract and had the right to move. A fee would have been decided by a FL tribunal. He made it clear he was going to leave so the club didnt offer him a new deal as they knew they couldn't match what was on offer from elsewhere so took the money rather than risk a tribunal fee.

 

[ruislipbee]

Phil Holder's team played long ball one dimentional football. Decent ball players like Allan Cockram were left out of the team, yes he got us out of the third tier but only because we had exceptional finishers in Holdsworth and Blissett. In my view the overall standard of the football played under Holder was rubbish. Long diagonal ball, try and flick it into the box and hope someone would get on the end of it.

 

[horshambees]

the club didn't offer him a new contract Deano said. no bosman in those days:shrug:

I understood at the time Deano wanted to stay another season.We took the money and signed Murray Jones.

 

[bees66]

yes he got us out of the third tier but only because we had exceptional finishers in Holdsworth and Blissett.

I rest my case me lord:thetruth:

 

[bees66]

I understood at the time Deano wanted to stay another season.We took the money and signed Murray Jones.

hmm I seem to remember something like that, if they offered him he would have stayed now..:bound::banana::bound:

 

[Sunbury Bee]

I rest my case me lord:thetruth:

I think both you are Ruislip Bee are doing Holder a massive disservice by saying that it was only down to Blissett and Holdsworth that we went up that season. There was so good players in the squad and Holder got the best of them all by playing to there strengths. It may not have been pretty at times but he got us up something that a lot of managers have tried and failed to do!

 

[Sunbury Bee]

hmm I seem to remember something like that, if they offered him he would have stayed now..:bound::banana::bound:

Once again nonsense. Holdsworth agent had been talking to a lot of clubs and he had told Holdsworth what he could earn away from GP which BFC could not get anywhere near. He was never going to sign even if we had offered him a contract.

 

[bees66]

It may not have been pretty at times but he got us up something that a lot of managers have tried and failed to do!

agreed but why didn't Lange give him another season then?

 

[bees66]

Once again nonsense. Holdsworth agent had been talking to a lot of clubs and he had told Holdsworth what he could earn away from GP which BFC could not get anywhere near. He was never going to sign even if we had offered him a contract.

fair enough

 

[SH]

My understanding (from a director some years later) was that Deano would have stayed another season for a re-signing on fee of £75,000 but that Lange & Co. wouldn't do it. If true, that must be the worst £75,000 of business the club ever did... What we'd give for Holder's team today.

 

[Easter 1959]

Marvellous Interview here:

https://www.brentfordfc.com/news/2017/june/20170605---phil-holder/

'Very proud to have been given the opportunity to Manager Brentford'