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northants bee
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Phil Holder
phil holder,where is he now and also do you think he was a good manager or was he just lucky to inherit perrymans good squad?
Phil Holder
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Downbeat Bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
Been discussed before - though not as much as it should be. Holder seems to have been airbrushed out of Brentford History. Certainly the best years I've had supporting the Bees 1988-. Main problem - most of his signings were poor.
roddy
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Holysmit
Well-known member
Phil Holder
Well anyone who gets us promotion must be good. I think even though he inheirted Steve Perrymen squad remember that Perrymen said he couldn't take the club any further and Phil Holder did.
OP
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northants bee
Guest
Phil Holder
i think he was the best motivator of players i ever saw at griffin park,i dont think he should have been sacked even after we were relegated,look who martin lang brought in!who knows if he had stayed manager perhaps we wouldn't have the saga we have today.even though lewy is the business!
Aussie Bee
Active member
Phil Holder
Sorry - But he was sh*t who got lucky - Remember we had to win the last 6 in a row to grab the title - and look at the team he was GIVEN - And look what he did in the first div - nothing. Long ball hoof
Edmundo
Whinging pom
Phil Holder
"Where are my doubters now?" he asked. Well, I was a doubter but I acknowledge that he did the business in 1991-2. I still think he should have been thanked for promotion and given the tin tack before the 1992-3 season started. For all his strengths, he simply didn't have a clue when it came to buying players.
RodBee
RodBee
Phil Holder
it struck me that Holder always wanted to sign players who were as old and/or as small as himself.
Only his ego and mouth were big!!
Only his ego and mouth were big!!
Kettering Bee
Bronzed God - Here to spread the love!
Phil Holder
I confess that I find it difficult to make an objective post on this issue - Phil is one of the nicest guys I've ever met.
As someone has already said a brilliant motivator. Funny isn't it? The only guy to actually deliver at Brentford seems to have been removed from everyones memories. Perhaps that's it - some of us just love the misery too much.
Yes Ed, Chris Hughton and Brian Statham - both very bad signings weren't they?? Seem to recall that our season just fell apart after signing that pair. With regards to signings, Hmm I think we need to take a reality check and consider how much dosh Phil was allowed to play with. Sell your top striker for 750k and have 75k to replace him. It's true that the Joe Allon deal was expensive and never worked out, but can anyone honestly say that they didn't think this was a good signing when we first got him?
Some wonder why 92/93 season didn't work out. I've already discussed finance, but luck (or lack of) was also a significant factor and a manager struggling against the odds working for a owner/chairman who wouldn't speak to him for the last year of his tenure (allegedly).
As someone has already said a brilliant motivator. Funny isn't it? The only guy to actually deliver at Brentford seems to have been removed from everyones memories. Perhaps that's it - some of us just love the misery too much.
Yes Ed, Chris Hughton and Brian Statham - both very bad signings weren't they?? Seem to recall that our season just fell apart after signing that pair. With regards to signings, Hmm I think we need to take a reality check and consider how much dosh Phil was allowed to play with. Sell your top striker for 750k and have 75k to replace him. It's true that the Joe Allon deal was expensive and never worked out, but can anyone honestly say that they didn't think this was a good signing when we first got him?
Some wonder why 92/93 season didn't work out. I've already discussed finance, but luck (or lack of) was also a significant factor and a manager struggling against the odds working for a owner/chairman who wouldn't speak to him for the last year of his tenure (allegedly).
Simon W
Well-known member
Phil Holder
On TalkSport a few days ago , they were talking to a journalist about football in Japan. He was talking about Steve Perryman and also mention that Phil Holder was out there with him. Now Perryman is back over here , he did not say whether Holder had come back to this country too.
Railway Side Bee
Active member
Phil Holder
Yeah...and we won those six games while the clubs around us bottled it. I was in Aus/NZ during those six games so I missed a lot of the euphoria but I remember what a great way to win a title that was - starting up at Hull wasn't it.
I can't believe we're gonna slate a guy who brought us arguably the club's best achievement in decades.
As to 1992/93, we simply didn't put forward the resources to compete. Had we been able to hold onto Deano and strengthen after promotion I really believe things would have been different. Afterall, we only got relegated by virtue of a Birmingham goal 9 minutes from the end of the season didn't we? (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Sometimes, I really think we Bees love to moan and look at all the bad things that happen. 1991/92 gave some great memories.
[This message has been edited by Railway Side Bee (edited 25 March 2001).]
Indian Bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
Not alot of people knew about this but when we got promoted to the First Division, Southampton contacted Holder and basically said dont sell Holdsworth until they get their second installment from Blackburn from the sale of Shearer, they were offering 2 million for Holdsworth. What did Holder do, he sells Deono to Wimbledon for 750K plus Bennett, buys Murruy Jones as he didn't think Deano would do the business in the first Division.
Thats is the memory I've got off Phil Holder, he was responsible of us being relegated.
Thats is the memory I've got off Phil Holder, he was responsible of us being relegated.
Railway Side Bee
Active member
Indian Bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
Railway Side Bee, Holder had a choice to either offer Millen or Holdsworth the best contract ever offered by Brentford to a player, Holdsworth was on record saying that he would stay at Brentford for only another year, Holder made his choice and offered it to Millen whereas the offer he gave Deano was an insult to a player that just scored us 38 goals.
I'm sorry but Millen was found out in the 1st Division whereas Deano goals would have saved us from relegation and I'm sure his value would have shot up at the end of the year.
What Holder did was waste the money on Bennett, Jones, Allon and Westley...enough said!!!...he didn't have a clue.
I'm sorry but Millen was found out in the 1st Division whereas Deano goals would have saved us from relegation and I'm sure his value would have shot up at the end of the year.
What Holder did was waste the money on Bennett, Jones, Allon and Westley...enough said!!!...he didn't have a clue.
Aussie Bee
Active member
Phil Holder
RBS - Were you in Sydney for the Peterboro game? I had a party with about 10 other Bees fans and got live radio commentary with help from the club down the telephone coming out of a speaker phone - Great night - Signing WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS at 4 in the morning, neighbours nicking my fuse to turn the power off! Nicking one back to turn it back on!
Shame the phone call cost $250! LOL
Park Royal Ben
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Phil Holder
If If's & but's were pots & pans we'd all be cooking with them mate.
The above sounds like total garbage to me, "Don't sell him for your club record fee, we may want to buy him when we've got a bit of cash", bollox.
Jimbee
Who's the dummy?
Phil Holder
Who was at the forum that the management held in stripes just before the end of the relagation season.
Someone stood up and said to Phil 'Why didn't you sign Stan Collymore?'.
His reply was something like 'I watched him several times and he'll do nothing for 80 minutes and then score a goal'.
So Colly went to Sarfend for £100k, kept them in Division 1 that season virtually single-handedly and then onto Forest for £2m+, we got Geordie Joe for £275k and went down.
So desipte the euphoria of the climax to the previous season which, I agree, came from foundations ladi by Perryman, Holder's answer to that question is my one abiding memory of him - he was a poor judge of players.
Someone stood up and said to Phil 'Why didn't you sign Stan Collymore?'.
His reply was something like 'I watched him several times and he'll do nothing for 80 minutes and then score a goal'.
So Colly went to Sarfend for £100k, kept them in Division 1 that season virtually single-handedly and then onto Forest for £2m+, we got Geordie Joe for £275k and went down.
So desipte the euphoria of the climax to the previous season which, I agree, came from foundations ladi by Perryman, Holder's answer to that question is my one abiding memory of him - he was a poor judge of players.
mhead bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
I didn't want to sign jo allon. My dad kept on about it as he had scored a hat trick for chelsea, but if he was so good why did they want to get rid of him after having just bought him?
Anyone who had watched him play for 20 plus mins would have known he was bloody awful, no skill, touch, pace, or footballers brain. All his goals were also so dodgy, off his knee or arse. He could score a few in the lower divisions but 1st division never.
As for replacing noddy with webb, well webb is the best manager we ever had, it was when he took over the club the sh*t started. Webb built a brilliant team, the players he got from nowhere for next to nothing..forster,taylor, ijah, stephenson, mundee, ashby, asaba and granger. So he went and sold them all but he did find them first!!
Anyone who had watched him play for 20 plus mins would have known he was bloody awful, no skill, touch, pace, or footballers brain. All his goals were also so dodgy, off his knee or arse. He could score a few in the lower divisions but 1st division never.
As for replacing noddy with webb, well webb is the best manager we ever had, it was when he took over the club the sh*t started. Webb built a brilliant team, the players he got from nowhere for next to nothing..forster,taylor, ijah, stephenson, mundee, ashby, asaba and granger. So he went and sold them all but he did find them first!!
AB
Well-known member
Phil Holder
Having started following the bees after the Div 1 season I don't have an opinion on any of this. I was just looking on soccerbase for Joe Allon's stats- doesn't look too bad, exactly a goal in every other game (56 appearances 28 goals). What's the story? We'd all be wetting ourselves with a goalscorer with that record now (eg Andy Scott earlier in the season!!).
Park Royal Ben
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Phil Holder
Joe Allon was a typical bustling lower division striker, he scored bags of goals for Hartlepool in one season, I think they may have got promotion that season.
It brought him to everyones attention, don't know why Chelsea got rid of him so quick, could have been a change of manager or something.
At the time he did seem a good signing though, I was surprised by those stats because I don't remember him being that prolific. He was I think quite injury prone, susceptible to jaw injuries anyway he he, so the appearances and goals are spread over quite a loong time, i think he was around for about three seasons.
His goals may have come in the Anglo Italian or something, we did quite well in that, loosing to Derby in the Semi-Final over two legs, I think he got a hatrick in one of the games.
[This message has been edited by Park Royal Ben (edited 27 March 2001).]
It brought him to everyones attention, don't know why Chelsea got rid of him so quick, could have been a change of manager or something.
At the time he did seem a good signing though, I was surprised by those stats because I don't remember him being that prolific. He was I think quite injury prone, susceptible to jaw injuries anyway he he, so the appearances and goals are spread over quite a loong time, i think he was around for about three seasons.
His goals may have come in the Anglo Italian or something, we did quite well in that, loosing to Derby in the Semi-Final over two legs, I think he got a hatrick in one of the games.
[This message has been edited by Park Royal Ben (edited 27 March 2001).]
Y
Yiewsley Bee
Guest
Phil Holder
Wasn't Webb the manager of Chelsea then?
Also can we please place the record straight here. Webb was a good manager, but godawful chairman ....
Also can we please place the record straight here. Webb was a good manager, but godawful chairman ....
Park Royal Ben
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Phil Holder
If it's for the record then we'd better realise that Webb wasn't chairman, step forward Tony "My pet dog's called Brentford" Swaisland, Webb was chief executive and I believe major shareholder, what ever it was yes he was awful.
TOMOGP
Active member
Phil Holder
I cannot comment on the last Para but agree fully with Ed he was no good at "spotting" players you mention 2 what about the Finnigans Mickey Bennett Paul Miss the ball Mortimer, what about the training for the Juniors "belt it as far as you can" he was responsible for Westly over 100K he had the most money to spend that any bees Manager had but he wasted it thanks for the championship but no thanks for anything else,
'Ayes B
Well-known member
Phil Holder
The only reason we got prompted under Holder was becuase the team were shocked and hurt at being booed of at Reading. A player later onfirmed to me that this event was to be the kick up the harris that they needed.
The squad was Perrymans, and lady luck shone to keep us in contention.
Talking of Joe Allen, do yo remember he was always offside. We were belittlling his performance in stripes when this bloke came over who introduced himslef as Joes mate, He said that he had asked Joe why he was always offside and Joe told him that it was Holders tactic. When the Bees were under the cosh, Joe was to stay deeply offside and the defence were told to hoof the ball over the halfway line, therefore conceading a free kick where-ever Joe stood as opposed to a throw on near our penalty box or a corner.
The squad was Perrymans, and lady luck shone to keep us in contention.
Talking of Joe Allen, do yo remember he was always offside. We were belittlling his performance in stripes when this bloke came over who introduced himslef as Joes mate, He said that he had asked Joe why he was always offside and Joe told him that it was Holders tactic. When the Bees were under the cosh, Joe was to stay deeply offside and the defence were told to hoof the ball over the halfway line, therefore conceading a free kick where-ever Joe stood as opposed to a throw on near our penalty box or a corner.
The Southall Bee
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Phil Holder
Noddy Holder got Steve Perryman's team playing a more direct style. Holdsworth & Blisset clicked, and our physical play defeated most teams. I have to apologise about not knowing the above attempts to keep Deano. My memory was that Dean was always going to leave at the end of the season. Alas, in the first division we needed a bit more than the long ball. Still lets not knock Holder too much. He did get us promoted. Dodgy signing though Joe Allon.
Phil Holder
My judgement on Holder was still in the balance until, on what was surely the proudest day of his football life, I saw him celebrating promotion on an open top bus in Hounslow dressed with a very fetching sweater wrapped around his shoulders. That odd fashion statement soon got me wondering about his 1st division credentials!!!!
Phil Holder
In my view, Geordie Joe (Allon) will always be a legend at Griffin Park for 1 thing....
Reading at home very early in the season (not sure which) and in the warm-up he just kept booting the ball at their fans in the Wendy House (which they were a tad upset about). Into the game and Joe only goes and scores what turns out to be the only goal of the game at that end. The celebration was quite magnificent. He ran the length of the Wendy House with his right hand out simulating clapping the hands of the Reading fans who were going absolutley mental with anger.
You can't buy memories like that!!!
Reading at home very early in the season (not sure which) and in the warm-up he just kept booting the ball at their fans in the Wendy House (which they were a tad upset about). Into the game and Joe only goes and scores what turns out to be the only goal of the game at that end. The celebration was quite magnificent. He ran the length of the Wendy House with his right hand out simulating clapping the hands of the Reading fans who were going absolutley mental with anger.
You can't buy memories like that!!!
Kettering Bee
Bronzed God - Here to spread the love!
Phil Holder
You're quite right The Southall Bee, Deano was always going to leave at the end of our promo year. There wasn't anything Phil or anyone else could have done to change his mind.
Downbeat Bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
Was not just Holder who mucked it up in Div 1 - the club geerally - We didn't stay up; but if Evans had not been injured and we had bought anyone half decent instead of Murray Jones we would have stayed up
Indian Bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
I am not disputing what Holder did for Brentford in our championship year, in fact the 4-0 thrashing of Fulham and the Championship day at Peterbourough will live in my memories for a long time.
However, I really think he lost the plot when we were in the 1st Division, I cant agree that the club didn't back him, he was giving more money by Gerry Potter than any other Brntford manager and blew it on his signings.
With regards to Holdsworth, what I stated above is true, I'm actually good friends with Ian Branfoot's daughter, y did Southampton bid £3 million for him after when he was with the Dons for only 2 months.
However, I really think he lost the plot when we were in the 1st Division, I cant agree that the club didn't back him, he was giving more money by Gerry Potter than any other Brntford manager and blew it on his signings.
With regards to Holdsworth, what I stated above is true, I'm actually good friends with Ian Branfoot's daughter, y did Southampton bid £3 million for him after when he was with the Dons for only 2 months.
Park Royal Ben
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Phil Holder
In a similar vein, I knew a Fulham fan who who told me that after Marcus Gayle scored his goal in the 4-0 thrashing, you may remember that he ran behind the goal and along, apparently he was screaming "what a F£%king goal!!" I nearly fell off my chair laughing.
Baz Bee
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Phil Holder
I was not a Holder fan. He had the benefit of Steve Perryman's team and when faced with the First Division was found to be lacking in both tactical accumen and transfer dealings.
However, if memory serves, up until Christmas we were more than holding our own (no comments please!!!), and were in the top 8. After Christmas things went pear shaped. What crowned it for me was the swindon home game. Swindon, down to 9 men midway through the first half and still we couldn't create any chances. Glen Hoddle ran the middle of the park for them and our lot just stood and watched. Holder should have been able to sort out the tactics and formation at half time, but no. Those dropped two points would have kept us up.
I could also comment upon his transfer dealings but they've been well documented above. However, I was reliably informed by someone close to the club that Deano was indeed prepared to sign a one year contract if the financial package was right. Draw your own conclusions!
However, if memory serves, up until Christmas we were more than holding our own (no comments please!!!), and were in the top 8. After Christmas things went pear shaped. What crowned it for me was the swindon home game. Swindon, down to 9 men midway through the first half and still we couldn't create any chances. Glen Hoddle ran the middle of the park for them and our lot just stood and watched. Holder should have been able to sort out the tactics and formation at half time, but no. Those dropped two points would have kept us up.
I could also comment upon his transfer dealings but they've been well documented above. However, I was reliably informed by someone close to the club that Deano was indeed prepared to sign a one year contract if the financial package was right. Draw your own conclusions!
Downbeat Bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
The Swindon game does stick in the memory - I think it was the biggest game in London that day - nearly 11,000 watched it. I can still remember them playing a 7 - 1 formation in the second half with Brian Marwood up front who nearly took Brentford on and scored - that game did show Holder to be lacking in ideas.
christom
Brentford and proud
Phil Holder
How little we remember. Lets deal with the salient facts Perryman claimed he was unable to motivate the team yet Holder proved that was his strength. With regards to the spotting or otherwise of talent I reckon all Managers get it wrong from time to time, lets face it Perryman felt a certain midfielder would not make the grade when he bought Blissett, yet that same midfielder ended up with a load of caps and now manges Nottingham Forrest.
With regards to Deano, he was a regular visitor to Gary Blissets house near me in Rickmansworth and Gary was a regular picking up his kid from the local School, he advised me in January of our promotion year that Deano had made it clear he would leave at the end of the season.
Part of the incoming deal was Detski who had made all the difference at the end of the season and I for on thought we would be ok, lets not forget at Christmas we were only just outside the play-offs.
At the end of the day it just didnt work out that season and whilst it is easy to criticise Holder I thought that by the end of the season the players aqlso had decided it was just too tough and there was a noticable lack of fight, the final game was just a capitulation and whilst Holder got it in the neck there were a number of players who equally should not have worn the shirt again.
Sorry, it is easy to criticise the Manager and in hind sight a number of mistakes were made however reponsibility for that failure rests equally with the board, management and players.
With regards to Deano, he was a regular visitor to Gary Blissets house near me in Rickmansworth and Gary was a regular picking up his kid from the local School, he advised me in January of our promotion year that Deano had made it clear he would leave at the end of the season.
Part of the incoming deal was Detski who had made all the difference at the end of the season and I for on thought we would be ok, lets not forget at Christmas we were only just outside the play-offs.
At the end of the day it just didnt work out that season and whilst it is easy to criticise Holder I thought that by the end of the season the players aqlso had decided it was just too tough and there was a noticable lack of fight, the final game was just a capitulation and whilst Holder got it in the neck there were a number of players who equally should not have worn the shirt again.
Sorry, it is easy to criticise the Manager and in hind sight a number of mistakes were made however reponsibility for that failure rests equally with the board, management and players.
Voice from the Braemar
Well-known member
Downbeat Bee
Well-known member
Phil Holder
Christom - Pretty much right. I wonder when someone would trot out the doubters statement. Was Holder really more arrogant than the managers since him? Yeah Holder made mistakes in 1992-3, but supporting Brentford with the exception of parts of 1994-5 and other false dawns has got worse not better in the post-Holder years. Just remember how exciting it was to watch Brentford in the early 1990s. Let's be honest few fans have risked dying of excitement in the last few years.
J
jaybee
Guest
Phil Holder
I was at school with Phil Holders nephew !
But I did see Phil Holder working on a market stall in Watford selling plates or something, very amussing. This was after we were relegated because of his intuition in the transfer market ie Murray "goal machine" Jones.
But I did see Phil Holder working on a market stall in Watford selling plates or something, very amussing. This was after we were relegated because of his intuition in the transfer market ie Murray "goal machine" Jones.
B2B
Active member
Phil Holder
Holder was awful. I worked with the footie in the community scheme during our relegation season. I will always remember him standind on the dugouts during 'training' shouting 'hump it up there' over and over again.
By teh way, Allon scored goals but was awful, but the only reason we stayed anywhere near the top and had a half decent season to begin, and come to think of it, not be relegated by Christmas, was Mr gary Blissett. He scored 29 goals in a sh*te side... what would we give for someone like that now?
Besides, the reason we really went down was Easter Monday and 7 minutes of injury time...GUTTED!
By teh way, Allon scored goals but was awful, but the only reason we stayed anywhere near the top and had a half decent season to begin, and come to think of it, not be relegated by Christmas, was Mr gary Blissett. He scored 29 goals in a sh*te side... what would we give for someone like that now?
Besides, the reason we really went down was Easter Monday and 7 minutes of injury time...GUTTED!
Calne Bee
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Phil Holder
Wonder if "booing" would work on our current squad?
I loved Phil Holders updates on clubcall. It got the fans fired up too.
"Fire in bellies" time ... class.
Brentford Bob
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SmiffyBee
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