QPR financial problems

[brooks]

Interesting article in Independent today outlining QPR problems. Makes our situation look a little bit better.

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/comment/story.jsp?story=461574

 

[nocoat]

I leave the GPG for five minutes, and its chaos!

Wrong forum bumpkin! :thumbs:

 

[Edmundo]

Well, it was, Davey!

 

[brooks]

Sorry I am not familiar with the forums and its Mr Bumpkin to you.

 

[Stanley]

More light on QPR's murky financial position, just looks worse and worse.

Reading this it may even be they don't have Loftus Rd to sell off as a last resort.

I see phrases like "may not last the season" are creeping in again. If that's so how come they were offering decent contracts to Rowly etc as recently as the close season.

Can anyone reading this seriously doubt Bees United and the sort of prudent management they are preaching is the only way forward for us?

 

[brooks]

A few days ago one of the football commentators on Radio 5 cited Brentford as one of the handful of clubs leading the way to just such sensible and prudent management.

 

[Mr Cynical]

Can anyone reading this seriously doubt Bees United and the sort of prudent management they are preaching is the only way forward for us?

Quite right, haven't we been linked with "unnamed" sources of revenue from abroad? I seem to remember Bees United getting a lot of stick for not following these up, just goes to show the sort of situation you can get yourself in if you're not careful. At least at the moment we still have the ground to fall back on. QPR haven't even got that. I'm amazed that their fans haven't been a bit more proactive in trying to stop the board from killing their club, but then I suppose they're still a "Premier League" club so they'll be alright!!

 

[Edmundo]

I think their fans have been doing what they can, but their trust has not been well received by the board at QPR. I think the board was upset at the trust asking some pertinent questions.

 

[abee]

Quite right, haven't we been linked with "unnamed" sources of revenue from abroad? I seem to remember Bees United getting a lot of stick for not following these up, just goes to show the sort of situation you can get yourself in if you're not careful. At least at the moment we still have the ground to fall back on. QPR haven't even got that. I'm amazed that their fans haven't been a bit more proactive in trying to stop the board from killing their club, but then I suppose they're still a "Premier League" club so they'll be alright!!

I am not certain that you are correct and in fact both clubs are in a similar situation.

BFC has a debt of currently £6.4million secured against Griffin Park.

QPR has reportedly a debt of £10million secured against Loftus Road.

QPR however certainly has a higher revenue stream and they seem to be paying an interest rate born from desperation. As I have posted before QPR (assuming that they survive in the short term) still has the fallback option of taking a chainsaw to their wages bill. We have exhausted that now and supposedly have the lowest wage budget not just in the division but in the Nationwide and still we can't meet the bank interest payments of approximately £250,000 p.a. from income.

Both clubs are running at a loss (forget the breaking even at an operational level stuff; the bank overdraft is a fact of BFC life and to say that we are breaking even before we have to pay bank interest is a bit meaningless. It's like saying you can run your household on the monies coming in but you can't make the mortgage payments).

I am not aware of any "unnamed" sources of revenue from abroad but if you are referring to my involvement then it concerned two banks in Dubai (one of them International and the other local) who were prepared to refinance the Barclays debt subject to certain conditions. That is not "unnamed" sources and certainly a lot different to the QPR loan reportedly through a Panamanian registered company.

 

[Mr Cynical]

QPR however certainly has a higher revenue stream and they seem to be paying an interest rate born from desperation. As I have posted before QPR (assuming that they survive in the short term) still has the fallback option of taking a chainsaw to their wages bill. We have exhausted that now and supposedly have the lowest wage budget not just in the division but in the Nationwide and still we can't meet the bank interest payments of approximately £250,000 p.a. from income.

Both clubs are running at a loss (forget the breaking even at an operational level stuff; the bank overdraft is a fact of BFC life and to say that we are breaking even before we have to pay bank interest is a bit meaningless. It's like saying you can run your household on the monies coming in but you can't make the mortgage payments).

I am not aware of any "unnamed" sources of revenue from abroad but if you are referring to my involvement then it concerned two banks in Dubai (one of them International and the other local) who were prepared to refinance the Barclays debt subject to certain conditions. That is not "unnamed" sources and certainly a lot different to the QPR loan reportedly through a Panamanian registered company.

Interesting, sorry, I hadn't heard anything about the Dubai thing, just read somewhere about "middle eastern interest" or somesuch! What were the 'conditions' you talk about?

 

[abee]

Interesting, sorry, I hadn't heard anything about the Dubai thing, just read somewhere about "middle eastern interest" or somesuch! What were the 'conditions' you talk about?

I do not wish to post the conditions on here and you have blocked your email and PM facilities. If you wish to PM or email me then I will tell you.

 

[CJC]

I thought we were £4.6m in debt and paying more than £250k in interest charges a year. I could be excluding the money we owe Mardonmain (old Palarse) and some other loans though.

I'd be interested to know about the Dubai bank conditions, see if they'd have been better than sticking with Barclays. Aren't most of these banks in the middle-east state-owned and run by members of the respective royal families? If you could have got us a loan abee you should have said that the cost of getting in to the premiership relative to the benefits for them investing their personal money in BFC were good I'd love having a proper arab royal as our owner, we could throw it at the Fulham with their fake Fayed!

As I have posted before QPR (assuming that they survive in the short term) still has the fallback option of taking a chainsaw to their wages bill

If QPR cut their wage bill would they make a profit though? And also you have to take into account that cutting the wage bill would probably equate to a serious exodus, and that the youth system has been cut back on. This in my view would lead to an irretrievable loss of talent, and could cement QPR in the lower leagues and cause a large loss of fans if the team became a mid-table division two side playing not too attractive football. It's a very tough decision on their part, I wouldn't like to be the one having to make it.

I agree with abee however we are far from safe and I would say we stand a decent chance of not making it through with the club intact, especially GP.

 

[abee]

1)I thought we were £4.6m in debt and paying more than £250k in interest charges a year. I could be excluding the money we owe Mardonmain (old Palarse) and some other loans though.

2) Aren't most of these banks in the middle-east state-owned and run by members of the respective royal families?


3) If QPR cut their wage bill would they make a profit though? And also you have to take into account that cutting the wage bill would probably equate to a serious exodus, and that the youth system has been cut back on.

1) Barclays Bank £4.5m; Altonwood £0.250m Herting £0.250m Rogers £0.100m; GPS £1.3m

All the above secured against Griffin Park. To this we need to add the secured Bees United loan which I believe is £0.080m. This gives a total of £6.480m secured by various mortgages on Griffin Park. There are of course other debts including the Bees United unsecured loans and which with various other unsecured creditors would bring the total up I guess to around £7m.

2) No. There are many international banks with large offices and independent lending authority in Dubai. Lloyds and HSBC for example have big businesses there.

3) I have no idea but if I saw the management accounts I could tell you in five minutes if I stopped for a cup of coffee. Their situation would be similar to that of Brentford when the Coppell team was broken up. I was merely pointing out that there are cost-cutting options available to QPR which have already been exercised at Brentford. The surprising thing about the QPR situation is that having elected to go for a **** or bust automatic promotion slot this season that they have reportedly signed on players on extended contracts which severely limits their wage reduction options during the next close season. It was probably the only way to sign some of their new additions i.e. Rowlands, Ainsworth, Thorpe et al and they probably decided that if it was gonna be bust then it may as well be a big one.

 

[Nigel Brooks]

And (oh how I hate starting a sentence with 'and') no lucrative cup run to aid their perilous financial position. Oh dear, how sad!

 

[BoroBee]

The Rangers' situation looks pretty bad from what I've read here. Is this why it's so important for them to get promotion this year? What pressure!! Presumably their supporters are aware of this situation. Does Carl Super-Hooper still come here? I'd be interested to know what the Rangers' supporter on the ground thinks of their plight.

 

[CJC]

Thanks for the debt breakdown abee.

was merely pointing out that there are cost-cutting options available to QPR which have already been exercised at Brentford

Very true, but as you say they look like they're going for broke.

It is quite worrying, West London could have one or not have any professional football clubs in the next ten to fifteen years (my opinion is that Chelsea/Fulham are unsustainable as when their owners pull out there's a big club that was losing a lot of money anyway and a small-ish club respectively).

I could tell you in five minutes if I stopped for a cup of coffee

Could shareholders find out? I know one, probably a negligible amount but they'd have access to some accounts right?

 

[abee]

[B
1) It is quite worrying, West London could have one or not have any professional football clubs in the next ten to fifteen years (my opinion is that Chelsea/Fulham are unsustainable as when their owners pull out there's a big club that was losing a lot of money anyway and a small-ish club respectively).

2) Could shareholders find out? I know one, probably a negligible amount but they'd have access to some accounts right? [/B]

1) As far as Chelsea is concerned it depends upon what safeguards (if any) the old board of directors insisted upon when Abramovitch moved in. Lobbing in £107million to buy players is easy when you've got a reported £5billion but if the directors were doing their job properly they should have insisted that he deposit sufficient funds in an escrow account to cover the players contracts. That is if he signs Crespo on a four year contract at a £4million per year salary then that is a real live liability of £16million for the club and if Abramovitch either gets bored or doesn't return from one of his trips to Russia then at least there are some firewalls in place.

My own view is that Abramovitch fell in love with Chelsea as a serious way to provide an immediate high profile image in the West and make it more difficult for him to have a "helicopter crash" or an "accident" in Russia!!!!!!!!

I bet the Chelsea fans wish they had non-exec directors like Rogers, Herting, Tana and Miller to look after their interests and make sure that some firewalls were put up to avoid a possible doomsday scenario.

2) The shareholders are only provided with shortform accounts for what has happened in the past. The management accounts would not be available to the general public or even shareholders.

 

[CJC]

My own view is that Abramovitch fell in love with Chelsea as a serious way to provide an immediate high profile image in the West and make it more difficult for him to have a "helicopter crash" or an "accident" in Russia!!!!!!!!

My view too, and essentially Chelsea could be disposed of once this use of it isn't needed.

I bet the Chelsea fans wish they had non-exec directors like Rogers, Herting, Tana and Miller to look after their interests and make sure that some firewalls were put up to avoid a possible doomsday scenario.

I bet they do

I might do my media research paper on how the television deals in football have affected Brentford and QPR financially over the last ten seasons, if I do I'll have to go down and get some info off them, so if I end up interviewing someone down there or getting data I shall ask pressing questions.

 

[abee]

My view too, and essentially Chelsea could be disposed of once this use of it isn't needed.

And how long do you think it's gonna be before he makes some highly publicised charitable contributions, applies for a UK passport and declares how much he loves this country. When it is turned down at Putin's request Abramovitch then sorrowfully announces that as he cannot get a UK passport and make his life here he can no longer continue to financially support Chelsea as heartbreaking as it is for him and he must therefore try his luck in France where he is looking at First Division teams there who would like his backing and how his new best friend Chirac has promised him a passport if he can't get one from the UK and furthermore............

Fast forward one week and Blunkett having had his official residence firebombed, his guide dog poisoned and with threats of fifty thousand Chelsea fans demonstrating through London suddenly announces that having reviewed the case again he finds that there are extenuating circumstances for allowing Mr Abramovitch to have a UK passport and the substantial contribution to the New Labour 2005 election fund had absolutely nothing to do with his U-turn.

Ain't it grand living in a democracy???????

 

[DidntYouUsedToBee]

Pooperscoopers deep in sh*te!

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/comment/story.jsp?story=461574

 

[nocoat]

balls am I reading ALL that in my leisure time... gonna have to wait till i get back to work in the morning lol

bet its in the wrong forum though :thumbs:

 

[DidntYouUsedToBee]

It's worth the read...although you can jump to the "at Qpr" paragraph for the jist of it.
Seems theyve remortgaged their ground to a dodgy offshore Panamanian company for £10 million at 10% a year and are slowly sinking unless they get a buy out!

which Forum should this be in then?

 

[JTofBFC]

It's worth the read...although you can jump to the "at Qpr" paragraph for the jist of it.
Seems theyve remortgaged their ground to a dodgy offshore Panamanian company for £10 million at 10% a year and are slowly sinking unless they get a buy out!

which Forum should this be in then?

All correct and exactly as mentioned in the thread entitled "QPR Financial problems" in the "Football World" forum.

So you'll know where its been moved to when Nana gets round to it.............!!

Still funny though.

 

[DidntYouUsedToBee]

okay seen it now (never seem to get around to reading that forum) Okay sir blow it out of the water!

 

[King Bee]

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/comment/story.jsp?story=461574

I think the ol' saying people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones is pretty applicable in our case vis a vis QPR.....

 

[TOMOGP]

.

BFC has a debt of currently £6.4million secured against Griffin Park.

QPR has reportedly a debt of £10million secured against Loftus Road.

QPR however certainly has a higher revenue stream and they seem to be paying an interest rate born from desperation. As I have posted before QPR (assuming that they survive in the short term) still has the fallback option of taking a chainsaw to their wages bill. We have exhausted that now and supposedly have the lowest wage budget not just in the division but in the Nationwide and still we can't meet the bank interest payments of approximately £250,000 p.a. from income.

Both clubs are running at a loss (forget the breaking even at an operational level stuff; the bank overdraft is a fact of BFC life and to say that we are breaking even before we have to pay bank interest is a bit meaningless. It's like saying you can run your household on the monies coming in but you can't make the mortgage payments).

_____________________

Taken on board what you say but point one our interest is £250k pa for our debt Rangers £1 million?
Point 2 from RUMOURS it is indicated that Rangers wage bill is at least 3 times ours ie £1.5 mill
From those 2 points would indicate expenditure of £1.75 mil over ours even other revenue streams would not cover that, However it is reported that Fulham are paying £1 million pa for rental this could leave us on a par, if so why does that report forecast a £2.5 million Loss against our £500,00.

 

[abee]

.


_____________________

Taken on board what you say but point one our interest is £250k pa for our debt Rangers £1 million?
Point 2 from RUMOURS it is indicated that Rangers wage bill is at least 3 times ours ie £1.5 mill
From those 2 points would indicate expenditure of £1.75 mil over ours even other revenue streams would not cover that, However it is reported that Fulham are paying £1 million pa for rental this could leave us on a par, if so why does that report forecast a £2.5 million Loss against our £500,00.

You can't tell without looking at the accounts. Maybe there is an overhang from previous years; paying up of player contracts or whatever. Your point is well made and this has been covered in an earlier thread a few months ago. Taking QPR's average gate as say 7,000 more than ours then that gives them an extra £1.6million through the gate alone (7,000 x £10 x 23) plus the £1million they get from Fulham i.e. their core income is perhaps some £2.6million more than ours of which £0.750 million goes on interest payments leaving them perhaps £1.850million "better off" than Brentford of which you say £1million goes on a higher wage bill.

Can't make sense of their forecast loss unless there are exceptional write down of assets and/or pay-off of players contracts. I don't see how a forecast loss of this size is possible at an operational level if your knowledge of the wage bill is correct.

 

[TOMOGP]

Just had a chat with a rangers mate (sorry) he reckons Rowlands went there on £1750-2K per week I cannot see many of the players you mentioned above being on less probably more so if we take an average of 1500 and say 30 players that works out at something over £2mill which could well start to explain the projected loss.
It would also be interesting to know what "gates"they have budgeted for, which if the push falls away with the gates less!

 

[Stanley]

Just had a chat with a rangers mate (sorry) he reckons Rowlands went there on £1750-2K per week I cannot see many of the players you mentioned above being on less probably more so if we take an average of 1500 and say 30 players that works out at something over £2mill which could well start to explain the projected loss.

I think they've got a smaller squad than that, they had a couple of 16 year olds in Saturday's squad as they are badly hit by injuries....

 

[CJC]

Ain't it grand living in a democracy???????

No idea never have

Besides Chelsea are a perfect New Labour football club, shaft your traditional support base and ride on the crest of Middle England to success. Besides Abramovich could just go somewhere like Poland for a year or so, get his EU passport there and come back to London.

I know that the season QPR went down they were paying people in the reserves 8 grand a week and other ridiculous salaries.

I would say QPR are long-term in a worse position as their capacity to develop is stifled. If they are getting near-full houses on ticket prices that are quite high now, there isn't much scope to invest in players that are needed to sustain top flight football. I can't see them finding a new ground too quickly, and if they stay in the lower leagues for too long they could have the problems we experienced in crowds going down, though probably a lot worse. Whereas should we build Lionel Road we would be in the situation where we have the cash to build a decent enough team to get us promoted (the one now probably could take us up with a couple of years experience and an addition or two the division is so weak) and the sky's the limit. Optimistic but possible.

 

[Snappy]

Their squad size is 26 according to their official website, with about half a dozen of them in their first or second pro years.

Still must have a huge wage bill with the likes of Padula, Carlisle, Ainsworth, McLeod, Gallen, Barton etc.

I make it about 14 players who are probably on at least two grand a week, probably more. That's over a million and a half a year already, without the other dozen or so players on top.

I must now go and cleanse myself in holy water as I have looked at the QPR website for more than a split second and have started to grow a penis in the middle of my head (not a coincidence!).

 

[CJC]

If you go near anything to do with Fulham you turn into a gnome, I went to a pre-season Intershit Cup match at the Cottage and it's like bloody B&Q! This guy in my college for some reason has started going to see them, he resembles a gnome more every time I see him.

Remember all Fulham fans look like Garden Gnomes!!

 

[bees66]

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/qprlsa?forum=2