Racism?

[PAZ]

Any sentiments in this post that come across as even slightly racist in this post are completely unintended, I would just like to make that clear.

My point really is that our club seems to have a major problem with having a vast majority of its supporters being of caucasian origin.
This would not matter too much, but we are in very close proximity to the likes of Hounslow, Heston, Harlesden, Slough and so on, and these are predominantly Asian areas. However, how many of you ever see an Asian (even one) at a B.F.C. match?
These are the people we somehow need to persuade to support the club. This in turn I think would go someway to persuading Hounslow council.
It sounds really bad but when I look around the ground on match days, I do often feel a sense of white supremacy.
Anyone have any views on this?

 

[Spiderbee]

Yes...with apologies to LeicesterBee/HestonBee etc etc.

Most "Asians" are not interested in football unless it is Man Utd or Liverpool etc.
The word "Asian" does not mean only Pakistani or Indian(or Sri Lankan).
It is this kind of generalisation that has made young Indians/Pakistanis etc sceptical of going to football matches(as well as the violence and racist threat).Most Indian/Pakistani origin kids that I deal with at Merton College prefer cricket(their fore-country's national game)but they see THEMSELVES as BRITISH!
Until poeple learn to stop categorising them as "Asian" and accept them as British citizens,then they will feel alienated and will not attend.
The club has targetted this problem.I was impressed with the amount of "ethnic minority" attendees at the Peterborough game though maintaining their interest proved difficult on the day,especially in the 2nd half.
I know where you are coming from PAZ. It just takes time OK?

[This message has been edited by Spiderbee (edited 15 February 2002).]

 

[Spiderbee]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Spiderbee:
Yes...with apologies to LeicesterBee/HestonBee etc etc.

Most "Asians" are not interested in football unless it is Man Utd or Liverpool etc.
The word "Asian" does not mean only Pakistani or Indian(or Sri Lankan).
It is this kind of generalisation that has made young Indians/Pakistanis etc sceptical of going to football matches(as well as the violence and racist threat).Most Indian/Pakistani origin kids that I deal with at Merton College prefer cricket(their fore-country's national game)but they see THEMSELVES as BRITISH!
Until poeple learn to stop categorising them as "Asian" and accept them as British citizens,then they will feel alienated and will not attend.
The club has targetted this problem.I was impressed with the amount of "ethnic minority" attendees at the Peterborough game though maintaining their interest proved difficult on the day,especially in the 2nd half.
I know where you are coming from PAZ. It just takes time OK?

[This message has been edited by Spiderbee (edited 15 February 2002).]</font>

Most Indian/Pakistani origin kids that I deal with

I should stress this has nothing to do with nefarious crime

 

[Leicester Bee]

I have had the misfortune of encountering racist abuse whilst from Brentford fans within Griffin Park. It almost made me turn my back on Brentford for good.
Without going into the details of it, it f*cking hurt that a fellow fan would make comments to me about being oriental.
I know that there are some who are racist, but I'm just about thick-skinned enough to not take notice, and also I have gotten to know a fair few fellow fans who I hope would back me up if it ever came down to it.

However, at all other times, I have never felt anything other than a Brentford fan whilst at games. That is why the abuse right royally got on my tits. I would ask the question of the marketing department as to how they co-ordinate their efforts in gaining fans from the ethnic minorities. I have had an e-mail from them in the past, requesting information about the Korean community, which is a fairly worthwhile venture. But the Asian communities are really worth having a go at. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that most Asians would rather support Chelsea, because of the success associated with them. Most Asians that I know, support Liverpool! If I ask them why they don't come down to Brentford, it's usually met with, who? Are they in the Premiership? They simply need educating, which is why the Football in the Community programme is so important to educating children.

 

[Spiderbee]

Well said Leicester.

 

[Wee Dave]

I don't think we can really point the finger at Brentford particularly. Cast your eye around any football ground, whether on telly or other Div 2 grounds, and you'll struggle to find any faces that aren't caucasian - it's hard enough to find any that aren't male!

The reason why more ethnic minorities don't come to football games is the same reason that more women don't - it's seen as a white man's game, because that's the way it's always been. There needs to be a shift in this culture for that to change, and there needs to be more footballers of Asian origin plying their trade in the English game. It's still right, I think, that there's only one footballer of Indian origin in the League (that feller at Bury...?).

 

[Mr T Bee]

The Brentford v India match in pre-season was an excellent opportunity to attract potential Indian fans, and I think the poor turn out on the day despite all the hype shows that maybe its not something that can be done. Where I live in Wembley (a.k.a. British India), the High Rd was plastered with posters advertising the Bees-India match, and I managed to drag along eight Anglo-Indian mates. However live football standing on a terrace is drastically different to watching ManUre v Liverpool on Sky Sports, and I haven't been able to entice any of them back

(this is compounded by me working on the turnstiles which makes it hard to bring friends)

 

[AB]

I think it depends on where you sit in the ground as well. I have noticed a fair few other non-white fans in New Road, and some in Braemar. Brook Road tends to be very white though. I don't know why- maybe standing equates too much with the "old" days of football and many people from ethnic minorities don't like the idea of being jostled and pushed around as it is easy to feel that it is happening not just because you are in a crowded space.

Perhaps I was being paranoid but for the India game I went to try out the Brook Road seats (nice view!) and got some strange looks from people. Although no-one said anything I had the feeling that they were thinking "why isn't he sitting in the Braemar with the India fans?".

I think Spiderbee has summarised the position pretty well though. Cricket is a bigger sport for many and those who like football like the Premiership. This is still a step up from the terrible generalisations around the time of the India game ("Asians don't like football"). I think it is one of those things which will take a lot of time and effort to build. It has taken years for football to shake off most of the image of the 70s and 80s (although some still are sentimental about the violence even now). Hooliganism put lots of white traditional fans off. It killed the sport entirely for most ethnic minorities at the time and for years afterwards- as I've said before, if you get regularly abused in public by fascist skinheads you certainly aren't going to volunteer to spend your leisure time and spare cash to spend a couple of hours each week cheek by jowl with those same sorts of people! Of course, football fans are not like that now and certainly not in the main at Brentford. It is just that it takes a long time for this to get through.

People like myself and Leicester Bee are hardy enough and regular and committed Bees fans- but if in my first season of coming I felt uncomfortable about my fellow Bees I would not have come back. Now I have more attachment to the Bees I can be more assertive- I want to carry on seeing the Bees so any trouble (and there has been next to none in the 8-9 years I've been following the Bees) is something I'd complain about and try to stop.

 

[Dragonfly]

Is it me or do you hardly see any black supporters either? I can count on one hand the ones I've seen at GP and it certainly seems disproportionately low. This is particularly so given that black footballers are so successful. What's the reason for that? It can't be a cultural issue. Is anyone on the GPG black?

 

[Speedo]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dragonfly:
Is it me or do you hardly see any black supporters either? I can count on one hand the ones I've seen at GP and it certainly seems disproportionately low. This is particularly so given that black footballers are so successful. What's the reason for that? It can't be a cultural issue. Is anyone on the GPG black?</font>

Perhaps it is that when West Indian people came to London in the Fifites they settled in Innercity areas (ie Brixton, Notting Hill etc)whereas the majority of our support was (and still is) Suburban where Black communities were not largely represented.

So, a Black familly settling in Notting Hill or Sheperd's Bush in the 50's for example will probably have an alligence to QPR passed through the familly. In North London how many Greeks support Arsenal as their families in the settled in the nearby areas etc etc.


On a more general issue, someone mentioned above that Football Violence in the 70's/80's was the sole preserve of White
Skinheads. Well all I can say is they have never seen mobs at QPR, Birmingham and Man City then. Two of the most famous Hooligans in London during the 80's (one at West Ham & one at Arsenal)are Black, so I think Black representation at Football has always been healthy, just depends what circles you move in.

 

[Indian Bee]

I've been a Brentford supporter since the early 80s and i can tell u that although i was only about 8 at the time even then i could sense i was the only Asian (they were a couple of black supporters) but it never bothered me. In those days i could hear the racist chants directed at black players (which i always found confusing considering we had Francis Joseph, Chris Kamara and the famous Keith Cassells...remember him?) but did i care like **** did i, i was too young. I can honestly say i have never ever felt threathen at Griffin Park because im of Indian origin. There is no easy way or answer to recruit the Asians in the West London area, its a national-wide problem (although Charlton r succeeding). At the end of the day, Asians on the whole will always support the likes of ManU/Arsenal/Liverpool as they feel they have more identity with them. Up to about 3 years ago i hardly ever missed a home game but with work commitments in NYC, i can only managed about 12-15 games per year now but i do see more Asian supporters.....like wee-dave 31 said, football is perceived as a white mans game and it will take generations to get progress, from me being one of a couple Asians, from what i have seen we have about 15 max!!!

 

[Silly Chip]

When I goto Griffin Park, everyone in red and white around me are my family. If I ever saw any racial abuse I'd have no qualms about addressing the situation there and then whether it be directly or through stewards. We must all stick together to drive out any racism at our club and must not ever turn a blind eye.

 

[Nigel Brooks]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PutneyBee36:
When I goto Griffin Park, everyone in red and white around me are my family. If I ever saw any racial abuse I'd have no qualms about addressing the situation there and then whether it be directly or through stewards. We must all stick together to drive out any racism at our club and must not ever turn a blind eye.</font>

Spot on Putney Bee. Don't however reduce yourself to addressing the situation directly, that's what we pay the stewards for. Name and shame and let them deal with it.

 

[Bigbee]

At the Bournemouth game there was an Indian father with three young kids with him sat near me.Brought a packed lunch with them and he tried to explain the rules through out the game.Nice to see

 

[Russell]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bigbee:


At the Bournemouth game there was an Indian father with three young kids with him sat near me.Brought a packed lunch with them and he tried to explain the rules through out the game.Nice to see</font>

Did they throw you any scraps or was the "Don Not Feed" sign still there?

 

[Ladbroke Grove Bee]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dragonfly:
Is it me or do you hardly see any black supporters either? I can count on one hand the ones I've seen at GP and it certainly seems disproportionately low. This is particularly so given that black footballers are so successful. What's the reason for that? It can't be a cultural issue. Is anyone on the GPG black?</font>

Yes sir, I is!

 

[Gaz]

The Prophet and myself are as well and can be found at the back of Brook Road every home game.

The best way of getting ethnic minorities into GP is for us as fans to bring them along. I first went to see the Bees when a friend of the family took me along. To me this is the best form of advertising.

[This message has been edited by Gaz (edited 16 February 2002).]

 

[yateleybee]

Not many of us came, but the friday night before the Princess Di funeral, we were at sarfend. On my way out, i noticed a family of Asians who had bothered to travel through the traffic, which was great.

Clearly, BFC is traditionaly a white, cloth cap, working class mans team. But now we are in the 21st century, we must attract locals as well as the displaced regulars.

 

[Silly Hat]

As someone who lives and works in India I think some authentic Asian spin is put on this subject. Basically, football is not a popular grassroots game here. Period. Sure, an element of the 'westernised' middle class who have access to satellite/cable TV may watch English Premiership games on Star Sports (Sky feed). But for the vast majority of Indians the only sport that matters is cricket, perhaps followed by hockey. The 'organised' (sic) national football league is perpetually breaking down due to mismanagement, accusations of corruption , lack of funding etc. And it only attracts half decent crowds in West Bengal (Calcutta, basically). The standard of football is pants too. Let's face it - the national team of a country of one billion people got beaten by Brentford. What more could tell you about the state of the game here? So, Indians arrive in England with little/no knowledge or interest in football. Compound this with (generally) misplaced worries about hooliganism and 'racism' and that's a big barrier to break down.

By the way, whilst we're talking about 'racism' at football matches I should say that at the One Day International cricket matches in Calcutta and New Delhi I recently attended, I had to endure ten solid hours in each ground of being abused by Indians. Racist epithets, water bottles and other missiles rained down on any Englishman at the matches whilst the police stood by doing nothing. Doubt if any Asians in England have ever had to put up with such a level of hatred at a sports event.

 

[Speedo]

By the way, whilst we're talking about 'racism' at football matches I should say that at the One Day International cricket matches in Calcutta and New Delhi I recently attended, I had to endure ten solid hours in each ground of being abused by Indians. Racist epithets, water bottles and other missiles rained down on any Englishman at the matches whilst the police stood by doing nothing. Doubt if any Asians in England have ever had to put up with such a level of hatred at a sports event. [/B][/QUOTE]

May I remind you that when you enter a 'conversation' about Racism on the GPG you must adhere to the following views: -

1. Whatever 'The Guardian' tells you to think.
2. Whatever 'When Saturday Comes' tells you to think.

Any other view is not acceptable I'm afraid.

By the way Mr Silly Hat, Can't you be bothered to speak to you old mates now eh?

How is Young Master Silly Hat?

Send me a private message, if you can bothered of course!!






[This message has been edited by Speedo (edited 19 February 2002).]

 

[Nigel Brooks]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ladbroke Grove Bee:
Yes sir, I is!</font>

Absolute class reply sir!!

 

[Albany Jon]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wee_dave31:
The reason why more ethnic minorities don't come to football games is the same reason that more women don't - it's seen as a white man's game, because that's the way it's always been. There needs to be a shift in this culture for that to change, and there needs to be more footballers of Asian origin plying their trade in the English game. It's still right, I think, that there's only one footballer of Indian origin in the League (that feller at Bury...?).</font>

I've never understood why there are (literally) no Asian footballers in the English leagues. We must have all played against alot of quality Asian players (at school/down the park/Sunday sides).

I understand the pressure from Asian families is in general greater to get a solid proffesion but it still surprises me.

As for supporters.. I think that will take another generation. Most of us were dragged along by our parents to see the local side. This is slowly happening with the Asian community but these kids will then be blessed/cursed as having no choice but to support Brentford.

My nephews are of mixed race and they have allready been forced into Griffin Park & beleive me they will be brainwashed!!

Hello Mr Silly Hat.. Did you sh1t yourself more at the cricket than you did in Rome??

 

[Speedo]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Albany Jon:

Hello Mr Silly Hat.. Did you sh1t yourself more at the cricket than you did in Rome??</font>

Leave it fella, Leave it!!

 

[Mr T Bee]

I should add that loads of the kids coming through with free school tickets in Braemar RD who aren't white is encouraging - we'll have to hope that they continue to come when they leave the school(s), and hopefully drag their parents along too!

 

[AB]

I have been encouraging my secretary (who is black) to bring her 3 kids along to a match. She and the kids are mad keen on football but have never been and she was concerned that it would be an unfriendly atmosphere for them. Not sure she'll go this weekend, but I'm getting there!

 

[Ghost]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Albany Jon:
I've never understood why there are (literally) no Asian footballers in the English leagues. We must have all played against alot of quality Asian players (at school/down the park/Sunday sides).

</font>

Harpal Singh @ Leeds
Baichung Bhutia @ Bury

 

[SQUELCH]

harpal singh has just signed a new contract with leeds, lets hope the reason being is he is a promising youngster with a good future.

 

[Guildford Bee]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AB:
I have been encouraging my secretary (who is black) to bring her 3 kids along to a match. She and the kids are mad keen on football but have never been and she was concerned that it would be an unfriendly atmosphere for them. Not sure she'll go this weekend, but I'm getting there!</font>

This is half the problem. Many black people feel that they would not be welcome at football grounds. It took me months to persuade my girlfriend who is black to come to a Brentford game because she thought she would be spat on and sworn at. I think this is because many people feel that because clubs such as Leeds and Millwall have had unsavoury reputations with regards to racism in the past then all football clubs must be the same.

When I finally did persuade her to come to a game, she was surprised that no one even looked twice at her. She's been a few times since and doesn't especially enjoy it, but not because there is a nasty atmosphere but merely because she can't stand football!

I feel the media showing images of rampaging fans abroad have a lot to answer for when it comes to football clubs trying to get black fans through the gate. It's down to us to make football fans of ethnic minority realise that there is no risk in them coming to GP.

As for the Asian issue, although I have said different in the past, it does appear that many Asians simply aren't interested in football although that doesn't mean that the club should stop trying.

It is clear though that many black people are interested in football as the number of black people that play football is hugely disproportionate (sp?) to the numbers that watch it.



[This message has been edited by Guildford Bee (edited 20 February 2002).]

 

[Mr T Bee]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Guildford Bee:
It is clear though that many black people are interested in football as the number of black people that play football is hugely disproportionate (sp?) to the numbers that watch it.</font>

Something I noticed on Saturday at Arsenal (my one match a season

) was that the proportion of Black people was significantly higher there than at Arsenal, I'm not sure what the reason for this is, although the Sky Sports factor may have something to do with it.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned is the whole social-culture rift that exists; white men tend to congregate in pubs, whereas ethnic minorites are more likely to be found in wine bars and clubs - and Brentford don't have a winebar on each corner!