Sleeping Giants

['Ayes B]

We stopped being a sleeping Giant the day the Royal Oak was knocked down.

We should still take 30k to Wembley. - our support is there, but shift work, migration and paying more than £20 for third teir football has put a lot of people off.

Our midweek kick of times are also too late and in my opinion are having an adverse effect on the crowd. Gone are the days when the result used to be announced on the 9 o'clock news. Kicking off at 7:45 may allow more people to get there, but getting home to local areas such as Northolt, Hayes, Uxbridge via publuic transport is a night mare and if kids have to be in bed by ten on a school night - only those who live with a ten minute radius of the ground are going to be tucked in on time.

In the 70's and 80's we used to get bigger crowds for midweek matches (see 100 years opf Brentford FC) there were a few excepetions (Fulham 11k on the Saturday and Burnely 8k on the Monday) but in the majority of cases the midweek attendances were on par or better than the Saturdays.

The Wendy House is a joke stand - the 600 seats behind the goal block the view of the 600 seats in X block. the shallow terrace probably holds half of the corner terrace that used to link the Royal Oak to the New Road - Maybe the Club should buy the flats back and rebuild them and the stand so that they are both back to back (like the shed at Chelsea)

 

['Ayes B]

says what ????

3 home games in 7 days and expense of wembley tickets was always going to make this a smaller crowd.........and the fact that weve sold nearly 20k tickets ALREADY with still 4 weeks go is pretty decent imho.......too many people on this board have the small team mentality......some of us dont

 

[Ace Face]

I have been trying non-stop to save the lapsed BEES fans from SKY TV football, I`ve got an extra 8 people to get tickets and go. But the problem I have had is the ticket prices. With two kids it should be a family ticket of £65 tops.

 

[seabird]

I don't want to make it worse for you, but if the match was not at Wembley, but somewhere the middle of Brentford and Carlisle, we would probably be outnumbered. Carlisle is a club with potential and have no significant rival in their catchment area up in Cumbria.

Good thread -this often crops on our message board over the past few years.
Brentford altough heavy populated have loads of establishesd Big clubs to compete with in a short distance,I travel 25 miles to work in Carlisle and 25 miles to every home match thats 50 mile round trip and think nothing of it,but it only takes me 30 mins each way.Just imagine how many clubs are within 25 miles of Brentford.Its around 70 miles to Newcastle and thats our nearest club ,on the down side there are around 80,000 people live in Carlisle and about double that in the rest of Cumbria--so although the catcment area is big there isnt a lot of people. There is generaly a large turnout for the big games,Leeds over the last few years nearly 17,000 at home on one occasion and 27,000 to Wembley the most we have taken.We averaged over 5,000 at home in the conference and had over 9,000 against Barnet that year,the crowds increased as the mommentum was with us to averaged nearly 8,000 a couple of seasons ago when we should have been promoted to the championship,however rumour had it we flogged it as we could not afford to go up to the championship,the crowds have plummited since to now around the level we had in the conference-averaging just over 5,000 at home.Our we a sleeping Giant ? my answer sadly is NO.--Have we got great potential ? again NO-all this talk as gone on for years and the gulf to the big clubs gets greater and the potential remains as it ever was , just potential--any similatities with your club?

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Fulham were no sleeping giant until a shopkeeper spent, people buy into success and should the "New" Brentford take off and the money is spent wisely then who knows. We have had a few 9-10k crowds for biggish games recently and these daytrippers might go for it a bit more often should we move up a league.
Without sounding all high and mighty I think we have a chance to progress and a far bigger chance than you chaps.

 

[hatfieldbee]

And you are not far wrong.Some big surprises to come my friends.Not to sure if i like one of them,as Anthony Keidis once sang"All will be revealed my friend"

Please enlighten the unitiated!We're not all in the closed circle.

 

[Houghton Bee]

Please enlighten the unitiated!We're not all in the closed circle.

Perhaps part of the problem is we are told with a wink and a nudge on here that all will be great in a few months with no real details. Why should we just trust after so many broken promises over the years (pre-benham/bees united)?

 

[8corner]

I'm with NB, Voice, Westwing and Mr. Logan. (An observation here too - NB takes the Frank Warren approach, largely measured, logical and a just hint of mystery or razzmataz to "sell" it, whereas Voice and Westwing are more like Don King!!!).

The Bees have never been giants but we have always had (and still have) bags of potential to grow and be at least a competitive Championship side. It's not that long ago that we were as big as (and for a short while bigger than) Fulham. Unfortunately they've moved ahead and are realising the same potential we had/have.

Brentford is in a great location and on our day turn out (home and away) in surprisingly big numbers - all too infrequently at home. Loads of people I know/talk to who say they support one of the "big" London clubs have a soft spot for the Bees and have been to some of our bigger games. I also know a number of "lapsed" Bees who have kids who "support" Chelsea, Arsenal and the like so don't come down GP too often. Wembley will be a big turn out!!

I believe good times are ahead for the Bees and while it will probably take a while to build the crowds again, a few seasons of sustained success - competive at Championship level with decent cup runs thrown in - will see that happen.

I know supporting the Bees can be bloody tough at times but stick with it, BEE positive and as a former manager used to say "keep the faith".

 

[Les Beeavinu]

Perhaps part of the problem is we are told with a wink and a nudge on here that all will be great in a few months with no real details. Why should we just trust after so many broken promises over the years (pre-benham/bees united)?

Is it all a wink and a nudge though? This year the club have been quite open in stating that there is an enhanced playing budget, money has been invested in starting a youth academy and the latest sees us talking about potential link ups with some pretty major clubs across Europe.

While I accept that there has been no "5 year plan" type announcement (perhaps we've heard it too many times), there is enough around to suggest that the club is doing all the right things to try and grow from where we are now.

Even Andy Scott's sacking gives a clue - the rest of football thinks that we've lost the plot and should be happy with what he's achieved whereas the reality is that the board have ambitions that weren't being met by the previous manager.

 

[nick logan]

Is it all a wink and a nudge though? This year the club have been quite open in stating that there is an enhanced playing budget, money has been invested in starting a youth academy and the latest sees us talking about potential link ups with some pretty major clubs across Europe.

While I accept that there has been no "5 year plan" type announcement (perhaps we've heard it too many times), there is enough around to suggest that the club is doing all the right things to try and grow from where we are now.

Even Andy Scott's sacking gives a clue - the rest of football thinks that we've lost the plot and should be happy with what he's achieved whereas the reality is that the board have ambitions that weren't being met by the previous manager.

Very good post Les

 

[Ace Face]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was about The Paddock during games.

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Perhaps part of the problem is we are told with a wink and a nudge on here that all will be great in a few months with no real details. Why should we just trust after so many broken promises over the years (pre-benham/bees united)?

To make sure I'm not part of the problem then here goes.....read the reports in local papers, the clubs we are trying to link up with and the massive investment going into the academy both in staff and infrastructure, 5 years ago we had fans painting the changing rooms and using that as their pot to piss in when empty. Whether Scott blew the budget this season is open to debate (it's not really...but move on) , look at the squad and how much it must have cost to put together, the wage bill is high and I doubt that all of them came on free transfers, the management team off the pitch are respected and everyone goes all giddy when abee posts on here, he's had the pleasure of my company for a day and there was nothing but positives that came out of his mouth and others that day. It wasn't a show put on for me, I left that room thinking that I'd seen a group of chaps in Brentford ties who probably for the first time in ages could see real vision for the future. The facts as I see are that we spent money on players in a time when that is rare in the lower leagues, we increased our wage budget where others are cutting theirs, we are really going for this academy and selling the idea of loaning players from clubs from within the UK and across Europe knowing that our training facilities match their needs, we have a backer who is in this for the long haul and actually supports the team who wants to watch football and not hoofball. There is plenty to be hopeful about, isn't there?

 

[Bookie bee]

Big club little club we have a massive catchment area to our west ,some recent games would have had much bigger crowds if not all ticket or people thinking they wont get in [small capacity].
So think Big:banana::beer:

 

[SQUELCH]

Is it all a wink and a nudge though? and the latest sees us talking about potential link ups with some pretty major clubs across Europe.
.

Have i missed something? Someone drop me a link please?

as you were

 

[Brentford 4 Life]

I think the critical factor for us is getting a new ground. It has been mentioned/argued/debated loads in the past but a new ground will be the difference between stability in the championship or a nice but brief holiday in the championship IMO.

 

[Ewok]

The thing is (and I know it pains us to say it) the Fulham model is one we have to aspire to. The problem is that whereas they had a nice big ground in place that they just had to find the means to fill, we would have to make the move to Lionel Road which would cost a lot therefore taking away potential investment in the team and therefore potential promotion possibilities. Unless a hugely wealthy benefactor came in in the mould of Al Fayed it will always be out of reach. Thats why taking a huge crowd to Wembley is so important - if we are perceived as being able to compete with the Fulhams & QPRs we might stand a chance of attracting that investment.

 

[Brentford 4 Life]

The thing is (and I know it pains us to say it) the Fulham model is one we have to aspire to. The problem is that whereas they had a nice big ground in place that they just had to find the means to fill, we would have to make the move to Lionel Road which would cost a lot therefore taking away potential investment in the team and therefore potential promotion possibilities. Unless a hugely wealthy benefactor came in in the mould of Al Fayed it will always be out of reach. Thats why taking a huge crowd to Wembley is so important - if we are perceived as being able to compete with the Fulhams & QPRs we might stand a chance of attracting that investment.

This is very true. Might have to have a few years of fans watching the other team rather than the Bees but in the long run it will be worthwhile. Sadly I reckon the fulham support in 10-15 years time will be very good if the they are still Prem/Championship team.

 

[slatts]

Agree with previous post about the Oak being demolished. How very short sighted that was. The whole feeling of the club was changed with a few swings of the demolition ball. I still cannot believe they did that.

Back in the eighties when we played Swansea and Liverpool in the cup the atmosphere was magnificent. Sure I have been in bigger grounds and crowds but those nights will live with me forever. Even if we build a new ground it will never have the history, feeling, atmosphere and charm of the Oak.

Oh please!! If I ever hear "it's never been the same since we got rid of the Oak" again I'll puke. I spent all my teenage years on there and loved it but it's well and truly gone so get a bloody life and move on! Yeh, we got a regular 10 to 12 thou back then, but by the 70's this had dropped right back to almost today's figures. That's history and you can't change it, but we'll get a bloody good crowd against Brighton next week and I am sure it'll be a fantastic atmosphere. Look, the BFC is still going, we are in Div 3 and we haven't been in the Conference - yet. Things aren't so bad. Maybe some of the folks that come to see us in the JPT might have a mosey into GP next season. We have never been a giant but we have our moments. That's what being a Bees fan is all about.

 

[Brentford 4 Life]

Oh please!! If I ever hear "it's never been the same since we got rid of the Oak" again I'll puke. I spent all my teenage years on there and loved it but it's well and truly gone so get a bloody life and move on! Yeh, we got a regular 10 to 12 thou back then, but by the 70's this had dropped right back to almost today's figures. That's history and you can't change it, but we'll get a bloody good crowd against Brighton next week and I am sure it'll be a fantastic atmosphere. Look, the BFC is still going, we are in Div 3 and we haven't been in the Conference - yet. Things aren't so bad. Maybe some of the folks that come to see us in the JPT might have a mosey into GP next season. We have never been a giant but we have our moments. That's what being a Bees fan is all about.

This post almost makes it sound wrong to dream big, want more and hope for better days. I love Brentford but will always live in hope of future success and glory. Thats what sport is all about...winning!

 

[vcmazz]

(An observation here too - NB takes the Frank Warren approach, largely measured, logical and a just hint of mystery or razzmataz to "sell" it, whereas Voice and Westwing are more like Don King!!!).

lol I like this observation .

 

[wayfarer172]

when we sold all our best players after the war Brentford have never been the same

How right you are young man.

 

[Ewok]

This is very true. Might have to have a few years of fans watching the other team rather than the Bees but in the long run it will be worthwhile. Sadly I reckon the fulham support in 10-15 years time will be very good if the they are still Prem/Championship team.

I think you may be right. They have grown very very quickly and can now boast a side that can compete with any in Europe. From where they they were 15 years ago its nothing short of phenominal - yes I know it was egyptian shopkeeper fuelled but as you say - if they stay in the top league for another 10 years then thats a whole generation who have known nothing but Fulham as a successful club. We can acheive the same - the latent support is there and astute management and stewarding of the club should get us into a psoition where we are looking up rather than down Wouldnt say no to a wealthy egyptian shopkeeper turning his attention our way either!

 

[Kingston Bee]

Have i missed something? Someone drop me a link please?

as you were

Have a good read:

http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/sp...ropean_talent/

 

[vcmazz]

It's never been the same since we got rid of the Oak.

 

[Kingston Bee]

Have a good read:

http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/sp...ropean_talent/

OOPs sorry, read this instead:
http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/sport/8884479.Bees_look_to_harvest_European_talent/?ref=mr

 

[beebopalula]

I think the critical factor for us is getting a new ground. It has been mentioned/argued/debated loads in the past but a new ground will be the difference between stability in the championship or a nice but brief holiday in the championship IMO.

Totally agree with that. There are instances where smaller clubs get there [ e.g Crewe, Donny for now, Gillingham, S****horpe] but they never last more than 3 seasons and fall back again unless they have the additional revenue from a new ground.

 

[cheshirebee]

When you think about it there are few constants in life and yet Brentford have achieved a near perfect record of finishing mid table in the third tier. Maybe that's what draws us there. You can not go for years and yet the moment you walk back in the ground it is all so familiar. You know the football will be average, the catering sh*te and that someone behind you will lose their rag at some point, bellowing abuse at the team or the manager or the ref. It is no different than when you were a kid standing in the same spot.

 

[West Wilts Bee]

Perennial lower league club for me too i'm afraid.

We stopped being a 'sleeping giant' the day Lange decided to demolish The Royal Oak End.

A sleeping giant would take at least 30k plus to Wembley and however much i'd love to think we will do that, in my heart of hearts i don't think we will.

A crowd of around 40k is probably what we'll get for the JPT final but compare that with previous recent finals....56k Milton Keynes vs. Grimsby, 60k Doncaster vs. Bristol Rovers , even Luton took 40k there recently, then it looks like Brentford and Carlisle are definately not sleeping giants.

How right you are . totally ****ed this football club up re the Royal oak. If that had not happened maybe Gp could have had a face lift. Done more harm than good IMO. Lange should have got someone else involved, I know it's easier said than done, but the gig was too big for him. Does anyone know if he still supports the club he loves?

 

[West Wilts Bee]

Thats a big post of yours mate .If you imply what we're supposed to understand from it ,then its interesting . But it doesnt matter how much Mr B throws at the club.If the manager ,(and I doubt from your post it will be NF after Summer ) isnt the right one with the right contacts then its all pissed up the wall

Good post, you only have to look at Scotts legacy. One of the reasons I wanted him out was that imo he has not built for the future. and now with a new man at the helm (or coming to the club) we start all over again. This worries me about our club, I really hope Matthew Benham can take us to pastures new. I really hope so, but I think itis going to be us and a few more that get this club to the promised land.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

Good post, you only have to look at Scotts legacy. One of the reasons I wanted him out was that imo he has not built for the future.

While I completely agree with you it is a concern that he was allowed to do that. The board should have managed the manager and validated his decisions.

 

[Letchbee]

We were unlucky with the war years. Just before the war Harry Curtis ( the finest manager we ever had) spent all our money on top class rlayers, then after 6 years of no meaningful football the players he had bought were too old and we had no money to replace them. We could never then fullfill our promise of the late 1930's of a top club!

 

[horshambees]

Please enlighten the unitiated!We're not all in the closed circle.

Nor am i in the "closed circle".As i stated all will be revealed my friend.Who is in the closed circle? REVEAL YOURSELVES

 

[8corner]

Totally agree with that. There are instances where smaller clubs get there [ e.g Crewe, Donny for now, Gillingham, S****horpe] but they never last more than 3 seasons and fall back again unless they have the additional revenue from a new ground.

But Donny & Scunny both have new grounds!!

 

[Brentford 4 Life]

But Donny & Scunny both have new grounds!!

A better example would be Col U who didnt have a new ground whilst in the Championship IIRC and even if they did its still very small.

 

[epsombee]

Curious about what these big things are now that Lionel Road is back up in the air again and (unless the board really can keep a secret) it does not look like we will have a billionaire fan joining the board ready to pay off all our debts and help finance a shiny new stadium for us. On the plus side I reckon we will get a shiny paint pot and brush from our forth-coming trip to Wemberley.

 

[Dave Bond]

it is very easy to criticize Martin Lange today but without his involvement at the time the club probably would not be here for us to support. I worked fo the club during those years and the word was that there were many weeks that the wages could not be paid without his cheques. I spent my youth in the Royal Oak stand in the days when you had to get there early to defend your territory againt incursion by away supporters and was sick when it was demolished. The truth was we owed something like £800.000 at the time which is probably more in relative terms than we do today and this development gave us a lifeline. Would I be going to Wembley on 3rd April with my daughter and grandsons all bees nuts without Martin Lange , maybe not.

 

[vcmazz]

it is very easy to criticize Martin Lange today but without his involvement at the time the club probably would not be here for us to support. I worked fo the club during those years and the word was that there were many weeks that the wages could not be paid without his cheques. I spent my youth in the Royal Oak stand in the days when you had to get there early to defend your territory againt incursion by away supporters and was sick when it was demolished. The truth was we owed something like £800.000 at the time which is probably more in relative terms than we do today and this development gave us a lifeline. Would I be going to Wembley on 3rd April with my daughter and grandsons all bees nuts without Martin Lange , maybe not.

Whilst I agree that demolishing the Royal Oak destroyed the potential of the club over night, I'm also one of the few who agrees with you 100% about Martin Lange. I don't doubt for one minute that he had anything other than the good of the club at heart when he made that decision. It was tragic, but I don't think there was a realistic option at the time. It had to be done. To blame Martin Lange is too simple. I also agree that it's doubtful the club would be here at all if it weren't for him. I liked him :shrug:.

 

[nick logan]

Fully agree with the above 2 posts.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

It would have been shut down after Bradford anyway wouldn't it?

 

[bostonhanwell]

It would have been shut down after Bradford anyway wouldn't it?

No it was not made of wood.

 

[vcmazz]

It would have been shut down after Bradford anyway wouldn't it?

Don't see why - it was made of concrete? But, even if that is so, the point is we had bags of space there to develop something decent. Now we're hemmed in forever and ever and ever .

 

[bostonhanwell]

it is very easy to criticize Martin Lange today but without his involvement at the time the club probably would not be here for us to support. I worked fo the club during those years and the word was that there were many weeks that the wages could not be paid without his cheques. I spent my youth in the Royal Oak stand in the days when you had to get there early to defend your territory againt incursion by away supporters and was sick when it was demolished. The truth was we owed something like £800.000 at the time which is probably more in relative terms than we do today and this development gave us a lifeline. Would I be going to Wembley on 3rd April with my daughter and grandsons all bees nuts without Martin Lange , maybe not.

It is true he did a good job, fair play. I wonder how much we profited at the time from the deal. It is a shame they didn't rent them out instead of selling them. We would have raised a fortune renting out a sledge hammer to knock them down and re-build the Oak.

 

[westwing]

Whilst I agree that demolishing the Royal Oak destroyed the potential of the club over night, I'm also one of the few who agrees with you 100% about Martin Lange. I don't doubt for one minute that he had anything other than the good of the club at heart when he made that decision. It was tragic, but I don't think there was a realistic option at the time. It had to be done. To blame Martin Lange is too simple. I also agree that it's doubtful the club would be here at all if it weren't for him. I liked him :shrug:.

It was a very short sighted option that limited our future potential and growth and lined his pockets at the same time. How many professional football clubs have gone out of business since then ?
The risk to Brentford was a threat but developing around the ground has caused a major threat for our future. What was he thinking of when he saw the drawings of that stupid stand ?

 

[beebopalula]

it is very easy to criticize Martin Lange today but without his involvement at the time the club probably would not be here for us to support. I worked fo the club during those years and the word was that there were many weeks that the wages could not be paid without his cheques. I spent my youth in the Royal Oak stand in the days when you had to get there early to defend your territory againt incursion by away supporters and was sick when it was demolished. The truth was we owed something like £800.000 at the time which is probably more in relative terms than we do today and this development gave us a lifeline. Would I be going to Wembley on 3rd April with my daughter and grandsons all bees nuts without Martin Lange , maybe not.

Totally agree with this. It was also a time of falling attendances and I don't think anyone anticipated that a large stadium would be needed any more. . It's easy with hindsight but I think ML acted in the best interests of the club at that time.There wasn't anyone else around who could have kept the club going

 

[slatts]

This post almost makes it sound wrong to dream big, want more and hope for better days. I love Brentford but will always live in hope of future success and glory. Thats what sport is all about...winning!

hehe, if it was about winning I would have jacked in the Bees years ago. There is nothing wrong with dreaming believe me. I've been doing it for nearly 50 years with the Bees and I guess I'll continue.

 

[WisBee]

hehe, if it was about winning I would have jacked in the Bees years ago. There is nothing wrong with dreaming believe me. I've been doing it for nearly 50 years with the Bees and I guess I'll continue.

................................pah, jonnycomelately.........................

 

[West Wilts Bee]

it is very easy to criticize Martin Lange today but without his involvement at the time the club probably would not be here for us to support. I worked fo the club during those years and the word was that there were many weeks that the wages could not be paid without his cheques. I spent my youth in the Royal Oak stand in the days when you had to get there early to defend your territory againt incursion by away supporters and was sick when it was demolished. The truth was we owed something like £800.000 at the time which is probably more in relative terms than we do today and this development gave us a lifeline. Would I be going to Wembley on 3rd April with my daughter and grandsons all bees nuts without Martin Lange , maybe not.

Hi Dave , how are things? You know me from old. Old Northolt boy, used to go down with Dave & Brian Tompkins and Alf. I do agree with what you say, and I know you got to hear a lot more than i did. Just can't help thinking maybe something different could have been done as Imo gp is more or kess ****ed, and the club is pretty limted in what it can do in terms of football beyond league one. I just find it difficult that someone with the brain of Martins did not foresee this situation. I remember thinking that then, and I am someone with a very average secondary modern education. We very possibly could have done something a GPand not hindered it. and maybe would not have wasted so much time and money especially from blokes like me that are still funding bees utd today.It annoys me that if you criticise Martin Lange , some have a pop back at you. I bet martin got all his money back. Gp never regained the old but fantastic stadium that it was , something that Lange will always take the blame as far as I'm concerned. He walked away . I like many others still come down and try to support this club onto bigger and better things.
No snipe at you intended Dave.

 

[West Wilts Bee]

Don't see why - it was made of concrete? But, even if that is so, the point is we had bags of space there to develop something decent. Now we're hemmed in forever and ever and ever .

Amen.

 

[West Wilts Bee]

It was a very short sighted option that limited our future potential and growth and lined his pockets at the same time. How many professional football clubs have gone out of business since then ?
The risk to Brentford was a threat but developing around the ground has caused a major threat for our future. What was he thinking of when he saw the drawings of that stupid stand ?

Absolute Top Post. and I repeat does he still love Brentford football club.

 

[RoyBee]

Things are looking up, which is great but sleeping giants? Anyone who thinks that is seriously deluded.