Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
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Balders Bee
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Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Can live with the boring away if it gets results.
At home it just doesn't work with the current squad.
Time for a rethink. Could type more but too tired and depressed. Will contemplate tomorro and try to be more constructive!
At home it just doesn't work with the current squad.
Time for a rethink. Could type more but too tired and depressed. Will contemplate tomorro and try to be more constructive!
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Depends on the players. With Donaldson, Grella and, say, Schlupp (I can dream), you could argue it would actually be 4-3-3. But with McGinn, Weston etc - natural midfielders - it's 4-5-1. And I'm afraid that's not acceptable at home. I really don't think you can argue with that - not a single goal in each of the last three home games says it all.
Saturday needs to be 4-4-2. McGinn - Douglas - Dave - Weston/Saunders in midfield. Grella and Donaldson up top. The lack of shape at the end of tonight's game really was embarrassing.
Saturday needs to be 4-4-2. McGinn - Douglas - Dave - Weston/Saunders in midfield. Grella and Donaldson up top. The lack of shape at the end of tonight's game really was embarrassing.
OP
OP
NorthamptonBee
Yes Boss
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
There comes a point when you have to concede that they are not working, I think we've reached that point. I don't like it away and it took a wonder goal to save us at the weekend, we create nothing, first save tonight was Llera's header in teh 89th minute, that's not 4-5-1 total football, it's total bollox.
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
I don't care how boring it is away if it produces the results we've seen over the past two months. At home is a different story and I'm now worried that we lack the personnel currently to play another system. Whether Uwe intends it to be 4-3-3 I don't know but it isn't. We play some reasonable stuff up to the final third but lack the quality/guile/personnel to turn good possession into any meaningful chances and more worryingly, I'm not convinced that a 4-4-2 will Grella as the second striker will result in the upturn in fortunes that we're hoping for.
The team lacks a spine, is too soft to mix it with the likes of Udders and Preston who, aside from having the luxury of big money strikers, also have the equally important ability to carry a bit of steel within their sides, something which we're very much lacking.
Travel Tavern Bee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Agree.....total and utter bollox. I saw the team and predicted the outcome....sadly i was right again.
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Completely. I dont want to go Saturday which I hate saying. Not because I think we necessarily will lose but because the best that we are looking to achieve is bore the opposition to submission with sideways passing along the back four and nick a goal through a bit of fortune. If that is what you are aiming to do from kick off then I am not interested. I said it tonight at 0 - 0, we could nick a goal here win 1 - 0 and loads of people will be walking out the ground marvelling at how good it is to watch when it has been absolutely dire. 3 Points, 1 Point or 0 Points tonight would have been awful.
marvelous007
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
To play nearly every game like this at home, is very, very poor. I dont know why we do it. End of.
Infatuated Bees Alter Ego
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
I wish I had as much faith in Gary Alexander turning our fortunes around, as Uwe supposedly has.
marvelous007
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
I hope we get some one in to replace Charlie in Jan. I know I should not say that, but Grella either isnt good enough or hasn't been given a chance. I'm not sure which.
Les Beeavinu
Administrator
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with 4-3-3 but it patently doesn't work when 2 of the front 3 are wingers, not forwards and the attacking midfielder is Bean. What happens then is the wingers revert to type and play too wide (they're supposed to get close and past the main striker) and Bean doesn't have the ability to play balls behind the defence. If we actually had 3 strikers and a proper attacking midfielder, it might work. As we don't, we need to bin it and play a formation that suits the players at the managers disposal.
In Uwe's mind, I think he sees Donaldson holding the ball up, McGinn and Weston playing off him, Adams and Logan giving width and Bean picking up the ball from Douglas and Dave and playing the front 3 in. I haven't seen it happen yet.
In Uwe's mind, I think he sees Donaldson holding the ball up, McGinn and Weston playing off him, Adams and Logan giving width and Bean picking up the ball from Douglas and Dave and playing the front 3 in. I haven't seen it happen yet.
IslandBee
Now Off-Island Bee
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
4-4-2 would undoubtedly play to our strengths in the forward positions. Donaldson is most suited to being the big lay-off guy in a front two and would benefit from balls coming into the box from wide areas. However, for this to work we have to get the ball to wide areas, and the question is how often this would happen under 4-4-2 because there are real doubts whether we can compete in midfield with only two in the central area. Huddersfield at home was the classic example of this: 4-4-2 after 20 minutes and 0-4 after 90!! In short, I am not sure the premise is right here ie that it is the formation rather than the players that is the most important problem. In truth, we are 2/3 players short of being able to play either system well.
EASTBRISTOLBEE7
"Holidays in the Sun"
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Got to be saunders instead of weston please !!! we need someone who can cross the ball and take decent freekicks and corners and thats not weston im afraid.
Brain-dead Bee
Ancient member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
4-5-1/4-3-3 can work, but you need to play the ball quickly and the front 3 need to occasionally get within 30 yards of one another (though preferably not the 2 wide strikers on the same wing). As it is we must be 320+ minutes at home without a goal (think we scored near end of first half v Preston) and have virtually never looked like getting one
Houghton Bee
Massive Member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
didnt think there was much wrong with our crossing last night, just a complete inability of anyone coming even close to getting into a decent position to get on the end of one. corners and free kicks were poor however, but mcginn took most of the corners (i think
) and douglas took the free kicks.
Gosport Bee
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Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
you can play 4-5-1/ 4-3-3 but not with the luxury of having 2 wingers, you need one of them to be more of wide midfield player (Maybe Wood) & you also need someone to link up between the midfield & Donaldson, someone like Forrester maybe who would be more advanced. Don't think Bean is the answer. BTW whats happened to Jake Reeves ?
Brian
Member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
The system can work but you have to have someone capable of making the pass (Reeves) & wingers who anticipate & make forward runs to receive the ball rather than stand and wait for it to be passed before reacting & hoping their speed gets them there.
beebopalula
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
4-4-2 would undoubtedly play to our strengths in the forward positions. Donaldson is most suited to being the big lay-off guy in a front two and would benefit from balls coming into the box from wide areas. However, for this to work we have to get the ball to wide areas, and the question is how often this would happen under 4-4-2 because there are real doubts whether we can compete in midfield with only two in the central area. Huddersfield at home was the classic example of this: 4-4-2 after 20 minutes and 0-4 after 90!! In short, I am not sure the premise is right here ie that it is the formation rather than the players that is the most important problem. In truth, we are 2/3 players short of being able to play either system well.
I agree with you Island. For me formations are largely meaningless. IMO they only represent where you ought to be when you've lost possession.The old mantra of ' in position when out of possession and out of position when in possession' still holds good.You can play any formation and not create chances if you don't have the players. 4-5-1 can be very dangerous if played correctly but you need players with the nous to make runs from midfield behind defenders. Not sure we have the personnel for that level of play. We can revert to 4-4-2 and accept that we need the extra two or three as you say before we can make the step up.Sadly, I think that we need a fair old clear out. In addition to the obvious ones there are one or two favourites who are strictly limited in ability to mid league 1 and it could be painful for some to accept but they need replacing. We will get there but it will take time.
hanworthbee
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
we dont get enough bodies in the box, they are clueless, balls whizz over and theres never anyone there.We could start with Grella but he looks hopeless.
favershambee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Looking at the programme, Grella has had one 90 minutes full play against Hereford in the Carling Cup. He is a striker signed by Uwe and needs to start to see how good he is. Continual cameo roles of 15-20 minutes chasing a game is no longer acceptable. Sort it out Uwe!!!!!
hanworthbee
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
has he ever had a shot? What happened when he was almost clean through at the end? Done a Rankin, tripped over the ball and fell arse over tit..get him out and get Steve Howard in.
alexcavell
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Grella hadn't been signed when we played Hereford. It was MacDonald and Donaldson upfront that game.
favershambee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
I agree with your comment that he tripped over the ball, but i have seen the top professionals do that. IMO needs to start a full game to assess his capabilities or loan him out for the rest of the season.
wanderer paul
https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Grella is not the answer. Why did we sign him? No idea.
We still need a Burgess/Blissett type centre forward, for Donaldson to play off, and a Evans/Hurlock/Hargreaves type of centre midfielder. Plus moving on a few in the squad. It's tough as they're what all clubs are looking for!
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Don't think moving players on will be that easy, unless they are prepared to drop a level or 2 ?
Bigbee
Well-known member
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Totally agree regarding the type of striker we're missing. We need someone for Clayton to play off, as you say, not someone to play off him as he's not a target man. This is exactly why I think GA has been missed do badly. He may not be the answer long term but he will provide the focal point we've been missing.
I also agree with others who've said that the formation can work, lots of teams have successfully employed it, but the personnel we have don't suit it IMO.
Inappropriate Smilies Bee
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
JD & Bean ran the midfield first half but we still didnt create a proper chance which is worrying.
Still only Donaldson up front when we are losing a home game!! No plan B?
Still only Donaldson up front when we are losing a home game!! No plan B?
Balders Bee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Absolutely agree with this. Whilst Uwe sees Donaldson holding it up I don't think he is a target man, think he needs one to play off. Forrester could be the answer instead of Bean , because playing people in-or any time of passing- isn't his game.
At home think it's got to be a 4-4-2 with a combination of McGinn/Weston/Saunders as the wide men and a central midfield of Dave/Douglas. At the current time it old have to be Grella and Donaldson up top- Sorry until we've seen Grella start a cople of games I refuse to write him off.
Whatever formation it is down to Uwe to instill some kind of confidence and belief in the players. Whatever formation we play unless the players take some responsibility we're doomed to failure. More than anything last night it looked like no one wanted to play the incisive pass, or take a shot at goal or run into space. Players were visably hiding when we went a goal down instead of rolling their sleeves up and trying to find a way back into the game.
Bookham Bee
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Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Shameful last night -simple answer bring back Reeves,play Saunders ,play Legge when fit and bring in a centre forward who is mobile and can HEAD the ball -at the moment to sum up Brentford are a powder puff team - We need to combine the so called silky skills witha bit of bite -ala Douglas.
westwing
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Very poor last night and really boring to watch.
i'd rather watch a team with Andy Scott in charge, now that's saying something.
i've decided not to bother watching this sh!t until some massive changes are made.
Sad times......
i'd rather watch a team with Andy Scott in charge, now that's saying something.
i've decided not to bother watching this sh!t until some massive changes are made.
Sad times......
Houghton Bee
Massive Member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
i think its too soon for reeves, he's played ok in a couple of games but not quite the young superstar reported from pre-season games. i think in a couple of years he'll be a very useful player but throwing him in now with a slightly moody crowd may not be the best thing for him.
Guildford Bee
Well-known member
kempy
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
If Reeves isn't the answer then who is? On last nights showing Bean and Dave certainly aren't and I don't think O'Connor is either.
Balders Bee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Yes think that's spot on. Hoping he'll get some more game time throughout the season but throing him into the current team and expecting him to turn it around is too much IMHO.
Guildford Bee
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
That just about summed the night up. Then he got a second bite and instead of just putting his foot through it, attempted a hopeless through ball to McGinn.
nick logan
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Top post as usual from you. I don't think we are boring away at all. Excellent at Oldham and Carlisle recently. Sat at Notts was a good game and belting atmosphere in away end.
moribee
moribee
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
If the team showed the same passions as Nick at least it would be enjoyable..respect
Brentford 4 Life
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
In my mind 4-5-1 is where you have 5 in midfield when not in possesion of the ball and 3 forward players when you do have posession. Like Chelsea did so well under Mourinho. 4-3-3- is where you have 3 midfielders when not in posession and 3 forwards when you do have posession like Peterboro and Blackpool do so well. They are different formations and require differnet players and different tactics. You cant change between the two during a particular game unless you have an extremely talented and versatile squad.
Uwe plays 4-5-1 and there is nothing wrong with that formation, particularly away from. The problem is that we havent implemented that formation particularly well at all and still 10 games on from its introduction it feels like a work in progress and looks disjointed. Despite the injuries to players that may have been able to work this system better, it is not good enough.
We need to try a different formation, at home at least, where we will be able to attack with greater ease i.e 4-4-2. I feel for Grella, he came here for more games and probably got encouraging signs from Uwe when he signed. Couple of months down the line, he probably is very confused and severly lacking in sharpness and confidence. When he is given game time he either has to single handly rescue a lost cause or at least get us out of jail. I can imagine he feels that if a RARE chance falls to him and he misses it that he may not get on the pitch for a long time in future. Those arent the sort of conditions to get the best out of a player.
I would stick with 4-5-1 away from home simply because it has worked, even if it aint been pretty very often. NB mentioned in the first post of this thread that it took a wonder goal to save us on Saturday. I agree with that and at half time i couldnt really see where a goal was coming from which is a shame. 4-5-1 was ugly against the lieks of Walsall and Wycombe (second half anyway) but then it was a new system with a weakened squad. It should really have "bedded in" by now and regardless of how good the opposition are we should be creating 4/5 good chances alongside some 4/5 half chances per game if we want to get the PO's. We dont quite have the players to make 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 work to requirements of an automatic promotion place or even Play Off success.
Uwe plays 4-5-1 and there is nothing wrong with that formation, particularly away from. The problem is that we havent implemented that formation particularly well at all and still 10 games on from its introduction it feels like a work in progress and looks disjointed. Despite the injuries to players that may have been able to work this system better, it is not good enough.
We need to try a different formation, at home at least, where we will be able to attack with greater ease i.e 4-4-2. I feel for Grella, he came here for more games and probably got encouraging signs from Uwe when he signed. Couple of months down the line, he probably is very confused and severly lacking in sharpness and confidence. When he is given game time he either has to single handly rescue a lost cause or at least get us out of jail. I can imagine he feels that if a RARE chance falls to him and he misses it that he may not get on the pitch for a long time in future. Those arent the sort of conditions to get the best out of a player.
I would stick with 4-5-1 away from home simply because it has worked, even if it aint been pretty very often. NB mentioned in the first post of this thread that it took a wonder goal to save us on Saturday. I agree with that and at half time i couldnt really see where a goal was coming from which is a shame. 4-5-1 was ugly against the lieks of Walsall and Wycombe (second half anyway) but then it was a new system with a weakened squad. It should really have "bedded in" by now and regardless of how good the opposition are we should be creating 4/5 good chances alongside some 4/5 half chances per game if we want to get the PO's. We dont quite have the players to make 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 work to requirements of an automatic promotion place or even Play Off success.
brighton bee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Totally agree kempy. Bean, Dave & O'Connor are just not good enough to allow us to challenge for the play offs. Trouble is, who would want them & would they go if it's at a lower level given that they are contacted? I have to admit to being very disappointed with Uwe. Really wanted him to succeed, but some of his signings ( Grella ) begger belief & to start saying that Alexanda is the key missing link has me more than worried!! Just have a gander at his goalscoring record for us. Truth is he backed the wrong player, p - - - ed off McDonald & the rest is history. 8 points out of 24 at home is relegation form & already I feel we can forget the play off challenge, this is looking all the more like a potential fight to stay up. Hope I'm wrong but feel the board have made another "bad un" & will be facing difficult decisions around Christmas with the German!
brighton bee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
This is the team I'd play at home:
lee
Logan Osborne legge Adams
mcginn Douglas diagouraga forrester
donaldson new striker
Moore eger oconnor Weston saunders
lee
Logan Osborne legge Adams
mcginn Douglas diagouraga forrester
donaldson new striker
Moore eger oconnor Weston saunders
brighton bee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Then away maybe swap oconnor for forrester and a midfielder or one of the strikers to revert back to 451
finsbury_bee
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
I don't have a problem with the tactics. If we swap out bean for reeves, forester or some other attacking midfielder then I think we would be strong in that area. I also think mcginn and Weston are potent weapons, quick and direct, but they just need to converge on the area as the ball moves forward. Last night we had no movement or passing into the box.
For me the main problems last night, aside from bean, were tempo and confidence. We need to move the ball faster and the players need to show much more movement. We needed to be more positive in passing and receiving the ball, such as being able to turn and play it forward when receiving the ball into feet from the defence. We just seemed so slow, flat footed and devoid of enthusiasm last night.
For me the main problems last night, aside from bean, were tempo and confidence. We need to move the ball faster and the players need to show much more movement. We needed to be more positive in passing and receiving the ball, such as being able to turn and play it forward when receiving the ball into feet from the defence. We just seemed so slow, flat footed and devoid of enthusiasm last night.
detours
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Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
How can you be so sure of something on such little evidence? For all we know Grella might do really well if we don't all write him off based on Uwe's desperate 15 minute cameo substitutions.
wanderer paul
https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Just look at Grella's record. That says it all for me. He is not what we want or need. He isn't a quick player. He just hasn't done it in any 'cameos' to warrant a starting place.
alexcavell
Active member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Quite a few points to note from last night:
1. We shouldn't be playing 3 central midfielders at home.
2. We seemed too concerned in keeping the ball and playing it on the deck than actually creating chances, but this just ended up being between the back 4 and Douglas, before we lost it too easily. We need to mix it up when necessary and try to keep the ball in areas further up the pitch.
3. The 4-5-1/4-3-3 doesn't suit keeping the ball high up the pitch, so I'd recommend a change to 4-2-3-1 with McGinn or Forrester (when fit) behind Donaldson. 4-4-2 (though an improvement at home on the 4-5-1/4-3-3) isn't ideal if we're trying to play quick passing football IMO.
4. I don't know where O'Connor was last night, but Douglas plays better when he can influence play slightly further forward, and not when in front of the back 4. A change to 4-2-3-1 would allow him to alternate defensive duties with Diagouraga.
5. We're not playing players who can score goals. Regardless of how good players are technically, we need people who are going to stick the ball in the net. Saunders scored 2 in the same game against Orient and Wood recently scored a hat-trick for the reserves - I'd give them a go over Weston who is better as an impact sub.
1. We shouldn't be playing 3 central midfielders at home.
2. We seemed too concerned in keeping the ball and playing it on the deck than actually creating chances, but this just ended up being between the back 4 and Douglas, before we lost it too easily. We need to mix it up when necessary and try to keep the ball in areas further up the pitch.
3. The 4-5-1/4-3-3 doesn't suit keeping the ball high up the pitch, so I'd recommend a change to 4-2-3-1 with McGinn or Forrester (when fit) behind Donaldson. 4-4-2 (though an improvement at home on the 4-5-1/4-3-3) isn't ideal if we're trying to play quick passing football IMO.
4. I don't know where O'Connor was last night, but Douglas plays better when he can influence play slightly further forward, and not when in front of the back 4. A change to 4-2-3-1 would allow him to alternate defensive duties with Diagouraga.
5. We're not playing players who can score goals. Regardless of how good players are technically, we need people who are going to stick the ball in the net. Saunders scored 2 in the same game against Orient and Wood recently scored a hat-trick for the reserves - I'd give them a go over Weston who is better as an impact sub.
wanderer paul
https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Brentford 4 Life
Well-known member
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Every cameo has been an uphill battle though for him. You cant give a fair assessment until he is given a fair chance. If he has proven to be sh1t in training then why the feck hasnt Uwe replaced him.
Tactics (4-5-1) Thread
Agree it is too soon to write Grella off but from what we have seen , it doesn't look too promising. He's not a target man like Alexander and hasn't shown (so far) that he can give the right support to Donaldson.