nick logan
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Paul Scholes is approx 10 times the player Parker is. Sir Alex could buy Parker if he wanted.
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Paul Scholes is approx 10 times the player Parker is. Sir Alex could buy Parker if he wanted.
JBN
In Training
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mhead bee
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Scholes WAS 10 times the player.
If we copied the germans and even the brasilians this time around we would not be squashing oyur best 10 footballers into a team, we would be playing the best holding midfielder in that position. Barry was that player but due to the injury leading up to the world cup parker should have been given a run out in a friendly and if he took club form to international would have been a better bet to fill in there.
Instead we had no other holding midfielder (barry isnt really one either) to fill in.
People have short memories as i can remember people screaming at and booing scholes in an england shirt as he just jogged through the motions for the last world cup and euro championships before he finally retired.
The guy is very bright and he knew he was passed his best and was down the pecking order in his favourite position so was only ever going to stuck n the left looking a tit. i cant see what has changed really. In fact i cant believe we are discussing paul scholes in regard to the current england team.
West Ealing Bee
Only Reading
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Do you want to hazard a guess who was the first person to write Scholes in this thread
West Ealing Bee
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TBH, this is one thing that is holding us back - an dhas done for years - even with our lack of talent.
It's staggering the way we always try to cram the best players in out of position rather than picking - that is one area where I feel severely let down by Capello.
nick logan
Well-known member
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I agree with most of this, just saying i think Scholes is still a better player than Parker.
You are right about the cramming players in. If Lampard and Gerrard can't play as the central 2 then one has to be on the bench. Or play Gerrard off Rooney. We need a better option than Barry as a holding midfielder imho.
macsalisbee
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I think that the whole shape of the team needs looking at-it's not , IMO, about the merits of different players in a similar system. There was a lack of genuine pace in central defence and the holding role. Johnson is ok going forward but has little recovery speed, on the turn, so is always prone to bookings. England must become harder to beat when up against the great Tournament teams. Alls well v the lesser teams in WC or Euros in qualifying-it's when we play Germany, Argentina, Brazil, Holland-it's the same old story. 9 times out of ten we lose. Someone mentioned Hoddle's ideas. Try 5-3-2maybe with a bit of flexibility. Stamp a bit of individuality to the system. We're not going to become Brazil any time soon but I'd like to see England use the positive things, pace,power,will-to-win,that are in our game and stop poncing about trying to copy others.
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
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Amen to that
absolutely agree, staggering that it happened AGAIN. and also the shambolic organisation of our pre-World Cup camp - lessons were there to be learned after Germany 2006, yet those lessons were spectacularly misunderstood :sad:
mhead bee
Well-known member
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Do you want to hazard a guess who was the first person to write Scholes in this thread
Oh probably me, but I was pointing out how rediculous it was that he was being chased by cappello to come out of retirement.
I also made the above comment in disbelief that i was actually bothering to debate it with someone.
I think you probably understand the context of the discussion but dont let that stop you.
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mhead bee
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I really thought he was going to be different. Having seen eriksson do it and how it just doesn't work, i really thought he was going to it properly.
That is probably the most disappointing thing about it all, eriksson actually did a better job and i thought he was hopeless.
mhead bee
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That is a serious probelem for us. when rio and king got injured it was a huge blow to us. THe lack of pace from terry, upson and carragher was actually quite embarrassing. Germany have very slow CB's but there is a huge difference between being a bit slow and being hideously outpaced like we were. There were a few times when our players were left for dead but not in a "bit slow" kind of way, but in a absolutely humiliating (as if I were playing) kind of way.
Barry was left for dead for the germans 3rd goal when he had a 10 yard start, that is not acceptable at international level. Also Johnson should have brought the guy down and taken a yellow for the team 10 yards outside the area when he ran accross him.
macsalisbee
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Barry was taken to the cleaners by a Slovenian player when he tried a dinky lob to Upson who, for some reason, decided to have a go on the left wing! An accident waiting to happen but Carrick was not fancied at any stage by the coaches. Really missed Hargreaves IMO
Keighley Bee
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I wouldn't argue with that when he was in his prime, but he ain't in his prime any more. Just how many free kicks would he have given away outside our box, and how long before he got a red card?
We should have been looking at the likes of Parker, Hart, Adam Johnson, Dawson et al in friendlies over the past 12 months. Maybe they would have looked like muppets, but one or two of them might have shown themselves capable of stepping into the first team. As it turned out, they wouldn't have needed to be very good to match those who did play!
I know it's a bit of a recurring theme with me, you might notice I make similar arguments about the likes of Ryan Blake at Brentford. But if you don't give these guys a chance, how do you know if they can step up to the plate or not?
hanworthbee
Well-known member
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we just dont have the players, weve had english managers, foreign managers and always come up short, you could get an alien in there and we'd still lose in the 2nd round or quarter finals
Salford Bee
Salford Bees on Tour
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To me it's entirely down to the players. They get paid handsomly by their clubs and they don't care about the three lions. The best England player out there was David James. Terry was a disgrace on Sunday. The fact we have players like Cashley Cole who only care about their pay-cheque. Get rid of them. Only pick players who have a chance to play in 2014. So this does mean bye bye Beckham, bye bye James (both players that do care) etc.
JBN
In Training
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Capello has one of the best CVs in football, winning the Champions League and various foreign league titles.
Our players are not upto it. Through either attitude, botherdness, club commitments, media commitments, shagging commitments etc etc.
The only thing we are good at is lapping up the excuses for under performance.
To say they are tired is beyond stupid. They train for a couple of hours, have a nap, a bit of lunch, another nap, watch the footy, have a nap. FFS, I would relish the opportunity to be that knackered.
As for Capellos pay packet, its not his fault if the FA agreed to make him such a stupid offer.
keep the manager, sack the players, review all sponsership contracts and set them up for the best of England, not the FAs pockets.
macsalisbee
Active member
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They're tired, bless em.
[/QUOT
funny how Mascherano, Tevez, De jong and Kuyt seem to have managed
Salford Bee
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Capello has one of the best CVs in football, winning the Champions League and various foreign league titles.
Exactly. He has managed in this way at club level. I think people like Cashley, Terry and Lampard are so used to being fawned upon at Chelski that they don't like it when they are challenged.
West Ealing Bee
Only Reading
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You think Mourinho and Ancelotti "fawn" on those players.
Even Abramovich tore them a new one after the Inter loss.
Salford Bee
Salford Bees on Tour
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I think their 'fans' do. They know they are the big cheeses at their clubs. Same with Gerrard. Same with Rooney. But they can't work together. It shocks me how Terry and Cashley don't look as if they know each other for England.
Paul O'Brien
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It seems to me that football now and in the future is for teams to get the tactics right and create a platform on which their best players can flourish.
England have nearly always started by choosing the 'best' players and then getting them to play in a traditional style that they're accustomed to. However, tactics are such a big differentiator these days that the best approach may be to look at what formations will do the job and then chosse players who can play in that way, either because their clubs already do so or because they are flexible enough to adapt.
England have nearly always started by choosing the 'best' players and then getting them to play in a traditional style that they're accustomed to. However, tactics are such a big differentiator these days that the best approach may be to look at what formations will do the job and then chosse players who can play in that way, either because their clubs already do so or because they are flexible enough to adapt.
nick logan
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I think we made a mistake having our training camp at altitude in Rustenburg.
Obviously we were expecting to win the group and have to play a 2nd game at altitude in Rustenberg but as it was we trained at altitude just for the USA game and then had to go back down to sea level to play the Algerians, who'd been training at sea level.
Study in the New Scientist recently found that teams who've been training at altitude are at a disadvantage when they go back down to sea level & play a team that's been training at sea level.
Graeme Souness also said that in '86 it took the Scotland squad about 2 weeks to recover from training at altitude.
We still wouldn't have beaten Germany, or won the World Cup, but I don't think it helped.
Obviously we were expecting to win the group and have to play a 2nd game at altitude in Rustenberg but as it was we trained at altitude just for the USA game and then had to go back down to sea level to play the Algerians, who'd been training at sea level.
Study in the New Scientist recently found that teams who've been training at altitude are at a disadvantage when they go back down to sea level & play a team that's been training at sea level.
Graeme Souness also said that in '86 it took the Scotland squad about 2 weeks to recover from training at altitude.
We still wouldn't have beaten Germany, or won the World Cup, but I don't think it helped.
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
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I'm sorry but I've heard this argument trotted out ad nausea over the past few days and IMO it is simply without substance. I don't know whether it's bourne out of a general disliking of the players themselves or being deemed the only fathomable reason as to why world class players play so well for their clubs and then so poorly for England but certainly in the case of Cole, his performances suggested anything other than the fact he didn't care.
mhead bee
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Can you imagine spain sticking fabrigas up front or wide on the left to accomodate him. He is behind xavi, alonso and iniesta on merit in his best position. His day will come and until then the team comes first and what a player to have on the bench.
We have stuck to gerrard and lampard for nearly a decade, enough should have been enough 7-8 years ago. It is alamost as if the big challenge is to solve the gerrard and lampard problem and then the rest will fall into place and we will be brilliant.
The easy solution is just play one of them.
mhead bee
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I agree, i think the players cared a hell of a lot, i just think they were lost. They were not good enough to adapt to a system that was uncomfortable, they struggled to get the ball and use it so were looking at each other wondering why it was so hard to do anything.
The game passed them by and they just didnt know what to do to change the pattern.
I accept to a certain level that maybe we are not good enough, but I also think the manager has failed to get the best out of his players. He is paid 6M a year to put out a team that can compete. OK, maybe we could never have beaten spain, brasil or the argies but if algeria and greece can put out teams that are orgainsed and hard to beat NOBODY will ever convince me we have not got the players to compete and put up a good fight against anyone.
That is why the manager has to go. We can blame the training, lack of investment in grass roots, players being "crap" as some would believe it, the fact that club england is a money making greedy enterprise that sees winning games as a low priority but the reality is despite this we should have done better with what we had.
kempy
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Had an interesting email regarding the whole Gerrard rumours that were going round a few months ago. Would explain a lot if they turn out to be true!!!
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
mhead bee
Well-known member
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Dont bother telling us, just let your post be the most irrelivant and pointless one ever.
Anyway, I thought gerrard was ok during the WC, best of a bad bunch in a way.
West Ealing Bee
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Please can everyone be very aware of the libel laws if this discussion continues further.
kempy
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Les Beeavinu
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Old B
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My uninformed guess would be that JT was a bit upset that he was stripped of the captaincy for personal life behaviour that became public. However as the allegations against Gerrard are unpublished, speculative rumours Capello could not take the armband away from SG (because of all the difficult questions and explanations that would be needed). JT possibly thinking double standards. All a complete guess based on overuse of Google!!!
Sunday rags over the next few weeks will I am sure get to the bottom of the whole team spirit question.
MODS - If this is "unsuitable" please delete.
Sunday rags over the next few weeks will I am sure get to the bottom of the whole team spirit question.
MODS - If this is "unsuitable" please delete.
Inappropriate Smilies Bee
Well-known member
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
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i doubt it's much more complicated than a load of arrogant pricks with too much money being stuck together... and all pissing each other with "how many swimming pools do you have? 3?! i've got 4 :thumbs:" conversations...
i very much doubt Stevie did what's rumoured.
Salford Bee
Salford Bees on Tour
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LostBee
Active member
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If you're going to make up a rumour at least get some facts right
The rumour I heard a couple of months ago was exactly the same story,only it wasn't his wifes sister....Chinese whispers possibly?
WisBee
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.............................not too keen on that chocolate, must be the excess of MSG..............................