A Settled Side

[BFC1997]

The top bods at Brentford seem to be very keen on the idea of finding small edges to help us overachieve. Odd set-piece techniques, analytical method of recruitment, etc.

If had a look at some of the most well-known 'overachievers' of the last 10 years or so and something they have ALL had is a settled side. A team that picks itself. A few examples:

Leicester 2016
Burton
Wales
Northern Ireland
Iceland

I think it's an issue that we don't know who our best XI is. Dean Smith should take responsibility for that - he's been with us since 2015 and he can't decide who is best players are.

Does anyone else think we need to have a settled team now at the expense of being harsh on some players at the club?

 

[Paul O'Brien]

The top bods at Brentford seem to be very keen on the idea of finding small edges to help us overachieve. Odd set-piece techniques, analytical method of recruitment, etc.

If had a look at some of the most well-known 'overachievers' of the last 10 years or so and something they have ALL had is a settled side. A team that picks itself. A few examples:

Leicester 2016
Burton
Wales
Northern Ireland
Iceland

I think it's an issue that we don't know who our best XI is. Dean Smith should take responsibility for that - he's been with us since 2015 and he can't decide who is best players are.

Does anyone else think we need to have a settled team now at the expense of being harsh on some players at the club?

Quite obviously, our best team picks itself: Button, Odubajo, Colin, Dean, Tarkowski, Pritchard, Swift, Dallas, Jota, Gray, Hogan.

Oh.

In other words, it's difficult to know what your best team is when they keep on going. I think Dean does know what his best team is - the only uncertain area for him seems to be central defence.

 

[Houghton Bee]

If all the data analysts, coaches, head coach, 2 deputy head coaches and 2 DoFs (if it's in their remit) we employ can't work out who makes up our best 11 what hope have we got of survival?!

 

[BFC1997]

Quite obviously, our best team picks itself: Button, Odubajo, Colin, Dean, Tarkowski, Pritchard, Swift, Dallas, Jota, Gray, Hogan.

Oh.

In other words, it's difficult to know what your best team is when they keep on going. I think Dean does know what his best team is - the only uncertain area for him seems to be central defence.

What about midfield? He's struggled to pick three out of Sawyers, Josh, Woods, Nico and Kamo, it keeps rotating.

 

[Mr Tree]

what is our best team then?
why haven't we been using it?
it really doesn't take much thought

 

[BFC1997]

what is our best team then?
why haven't we been using it?
it really doesn't take much thought

Well, this is the problem. You'll get too many different answers to those questions. We have an unbalanced squad. Lots of players with similar levels of talent in the same positions.

 

[Mr Tree]

well then

but partially we were disrupted by the transfer window

and partially by injuries / absence (Dalsgaard, Henry, Woods, Canos, Vibe)

so i don't see how we could have done what you're asking for?

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

Our strongest team is:

Bentley, Dalsgaard, Egan, Bjelland, Henry, Woods, Yennaris, Sawyers, Canos, Watkins, Vibe.

I think it is particularly important to keep the two central defenders together as well as the two more defensively oriented midfielders. Chopping and changing these positions will lead to trouble. It's the "spine" of the team and the players need time together to develop a proper understanding. Then, perhaps, we can be more consistent in defending as a unit.

In the event of injuries or suspension we have Daniels, Clarke, Barbet, Mokhotjo and Maupay to call on. The rest are either unready, long term injured or superfluous.

 

[malagakid]

Add Napoli and Spurs.

Think Smith and Frank need another 5 games at least to work this out but maybe isn't ever possible with our selling model.

In the end will probably come down to a settled clear tactical model.

 

[BFC1997]

well then

but partially we were disrupted by the transfer window

and partially by injuries / absence (Dalsgaard, Henry, Woods, Canos, Vibe)

so i don't see how we could have done what you're asking for?

We've got too many players in the same positions at the same age with the same level of ability. That's the DoF's fault.

But DS has got to evaluate what we've got and make a decision on who is playing. He's rotated things far too much.

 

[BFC1997]

Add Napoli and Spurs.

Think Smith and Frank need another 5 games at least to work this out but maybe isn't ever possible with our selling model.

In the end will probably come down to a settled clear tactical model.

The whole thing leading into this season was that we were to have a settled formation of a side on long contracts. You're now telling me we need 15 games to figure out who should be playing?

 

[Brentford_till_die]

What about midfield? He's struggled to pick three out of Sawyers, Josh, Woods, Nico and Kamo, it keeps rotating.

No brainer, Sawyers, Woods and Kamo for me.

 

[malagakid]

The whole thing leading into this season was that we were to have a settled formation of a side on long contracts. You're now telling me we need 15 games to figure out who should be playing?

Tbh I think you've missed the point about those sides you mentioned and Napoli, Spurs, FCM.. They all have a clear tactical model! They don't change the model depending on who they play. This should be our priority!!

Once this is has been achieved then will be clear who are the best players to carry out, and we'll have a settled side imo

 

[BFC1997]

No brainer, Sawyers, Woods and Kamo for me.

Some would say that's harsh on Nico. Some would say McEachran is our best player and he has to start when fit. They're both on good money. Leaving them out causes disharmony too.

Just think we're not very balanced.

 

[BFC1997]

Tbh I think you've missed the point about those sides you mentioned and Napoli, Spurs, FCM.. They all have a clear tactical model! They don't change the model depending on who they play. This should be our priority!!

Once this is has been achieved then will be clear who are the best players to carry out, and we'll have a settled side imo

'Tactical Model' do you mean formation? We've played the same for years it's just we can't execute it properly because players keep getting swapped around

 

[jlove]

Surely, this should be added to the poll on the 'Who is to Blame for our Poor Start to the Season?' thread?

 

[Brentford_till_die]

Some would say that's harsh on Nico. Some would say McEachran is our best player and he has to start when fit. They're both on good money. Leaving them out causes disharmony too.

Just think we're not very balanced.

Well that's tough on Nico, I wouldn't say its harsh, the other 3 offer far more imo.
Josh is not our best player (maybe the most gifted) but not consistent enough for me.

 

[BURFORD BEE]

well then

but partially we were disrupted by the transfer window

and partially by injuries / absence (Dalsgaard, Henry, Woods, Canos, Vibe)

so i don't see how we could have done what you're asking for?

Thanks for stating the bleeding obvious. It saves me the trouble. I sometimes really wonder what people ate thinking ?

 

[North London Bee]

Pointless ( a bit like us!), circumstances dictate the team that is available.

 

[sheffbee]

Thanks for stating the bleeding obvious. It saves me the trouble. I sometimes really wonder what people ate thinking ��

I usually have a biscuit

 

[malagakid]

'Tactical Model' do you mean formation? We've played the same for years it's just we can't execute it properly because players keep getting swapped around

It's a lot more than formation. It's about patterns of play within a set formation, with and without the ball, and more.. This is not clear. Since MW imo we are only now developing a suited model, but still looks like a lot of work to do before clear and can be discussed in/by media like they do for Leicester, Spurs, Napoli, Sheffield United etc..

 

[BFC1997]

Pointless ( a bit like us!), circumstances dictate the team that is available.

Do they?

Each of Woods, Nico, Kamo, Sawyers and McEachran are fit.

We started with McEachran, Woods, Mokotjo as a three. Since then Sawyers has been starting. But Nico Kamo Josh and Woods have been rotating.

Same thing at CB. Egan, Barbet and Bjelland are all fit but no one can say who is first choice. Even Egan (captain) has been in and out of the side.

This is the spine of the team we are talking about.

 

[BFC1997]

It's a lot more than formation. It's about patterns of play within a set formation, with and without the ball, and more.. This is not clear. Since MW imo we are only now developing a suited model, but still looks like a lot of work to do before clear and can be discussed in/by media like they do for Leicester, Spurs, Napoli, Sheffield United etc..

Surely the coach should have instilled an identity by now - it’s been nearly two full years.

 

[beebopalula]

Injuries and departures mean that the squad and starting eleven will more or less pick itself

 

[malagakid]

Surely the coach should have instilled an identity by now - it’s been nearly two full years.

That's always been my point. I feel it's coming, Frank has made a difference maybe. Still feeling positive

 

[jlove]

Surely the coach should have instilled an identity by now - it’s been nearly two full years.

We've changed formation (4-2-3-1 > 4-3-3) and we've changed style (to "counter-pressing") this season. Particularly with 2 central midfielders pressing high and full-backs playing over the half-way line, it can be effective for possession and for attacking but there's a significant vulnerability when counter-attacked ourselves. That leaves the 2 centre backs and the holding midfielder quite central, so we are very open out wide, against speedy wingers, for example. Norwich exploited that space very effectively. The holding player needs to be very mobile, so it is a bit surprising that Mokotjo is not back there and that we've seen McEachran and Woods in that position. It's been a problem position for many seasons under many coaches with many ideas...

 

[BerksBee]

The holding player needs to be very mobile, so it is a bit surprising that Mokotjo is not back there and that we've seen McEachran and Woods in that position. It's been a problem position for many seasons under many coaches with many ideas...

Which rather points the finger directly at Smith with a big question mark, does he really know what he's doing?

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

We've changed formation (4-2-3-1 > 4-3-3) and we've changed style (to "counter-pressing") this season. Particularly with 2 central midfielders pressing high and full-backs playing over the half-way line, it can be effective for possession and for attacking but there's a significant vulnerability when counter-attacked ourselves. That leaves the 2 centre backs and the holding midfielder quite central, so we are very open out wide, against speedy wingers, for example. Norwich exploited that space very effectively. The holding player needs to be very mobile, so it is a bit surprising that Mokotjo is not back there and that we've seen McEachran and Woods in that position. It's been a problem position for many seasons under many coaches with many ideas...

I've seen very little evidence of us counter-pressing personally. Certainly not with a significant number of players taking part all at once to do it effectively.
At the moment it looks like copying the tactics of others and implementing them poorly.

 

[BFC1997]

We've changed formation (4-2-3-1 > 4-3-3) and we've changed style (to "counter-pressing") this season. Particularly with 2 central midfielders pressing high and full-backs playing over the half-way line, it can be effective for possession and for attacking but there's a significant vulnerability when counter-attacked ourselves. That leaves the 2 centre backs and the holding midfielder quite central, so we are very open out wide, against speedy wingers, for example. Norwich exploited that space very effectively. The holding player needs to be very mobile, so it is a bit surprising that Mokotjo is not back there and that we've seen McEachran and Woods in that position. It's been a problem position for many seasons under many coaches with many ideas...

Right so you're saying we've basically ripped everything up and started again? Like I say, if after 2 years the coach doesn't know his best team/system then that is a worry. That's what got Hodsgon the sack from the England job and he only lost one game in the 2014-2016 campaign (5 games out of 43 in total)

 

[jlove]

Which rather points the finger directly at Smith with a big question mark, does he really know what he's doing?

Again, it may be personnel; Mojotko and Yennaris are the two most mobile players to press centrally, so you could play Yennaris pressing forward and Mokotjo holding (or vice-versa), with Sawyers playmaker. Then you have the problem with McEachran, as playmaker for Sawyers, as he likes to play deeper, with or as the holding player. Then you have Woods, who has played holding last season but is not so mobile. I just don't think it's at all clear how to make it work.

 

[BFC1997]

Again, it may be personnel; Mojotko and Yennaris are the two most mobile players to press centrally, so you could play Yennaris pressing forward and Mokotjo holding (or vice-versa), with Sawyers playmaker. Then you have the problem with McEachran, as playmaker for Sawyers, as he likes to play deeper, with or as the holding player. Then you have Woods, who has played holding last season but is not so mobile. I just don't think it's at all clear how to make it work.

But then, why is the coach playing a system that doesn't work with our players? This is not something he's inhereted, he's been in charge for nearly 2 whole years.

 

[jlove]

Right so you're saying we've basically ripped everything up and started again? Like I say, if after 2 years the coach doesn't know his best team/system then that is a worry. That's what got Hodsgon the sack from the England job and he only lost one game in the 2014-2016 campaign (5 games out of 43 in total)

Goodness! 4-3-3 is a variant of 4-2-3-1, so it's evolution rather than revolution. Most of our fans have not noticed the difference, anyway. I'd say the change has been informed by analysis and maybe by Franks.

 

[BFC1997]

Goodness! 4-3-3 is a variant of 4-2-3-1, so it's evolution rather than revolution. Most of our fans have not noticed the difference, anyway. I'd say the change has been informed by analysis and maybe by Franks.

Right. So you're saying we do play the same system?

That's what I was saying to begin with.

 

[GP200]

Right. So you're saying we do play the same system?

That's what I was saying to begin with.

.............is this the right room for an argument ??????............

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

.............is this the right room for an argument ??????............

No......

 

[mhead bee]

Surely, this should be added to the poll on the 'Who is to Blame for our Poor Start to the Season?' thread?

Or the DS thread. Just another thread for the same managerial moans isn't it.

THe DOF buy and sell the players, I reckon it isn't easy to decide overnight who the best 11 are and which formation and tactics suit them.

We score 2-3 of our 150 chances this season and this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[wadbee]

Some would say that's harsh on Nico. Some would say McEachran is our best player and he has to start when fit. They're both on good money. Leaving them out causes disharmony too.

Just think we're not very balanced.

Some would say that Nico is not good enough and that Josh only turns in one acceptable performance in four and cant do 90 minutes !

 

[BFC1997]

Some would say that Nico is not good enough and that Josh only turns in one acceptable performance in four and cant do 90 minutes !

Both have been starting when fit.

My point being DS doesn’t know his best side, which is causing problems imo

 

[The Pipe]

Both have been starting when fit.

My point being DS doesn’t know his best side, which is causing problems imo

I would imagine that initially he and the coaches were fully aware of what was likely to be the best team. Since then injuries, departures, loss of form have all effected the decisions.

I can't wait to get a couple of wins under our belt, not so much for the points ( although welcome) but to get rid of some of the negativity that seems rampant across pretty much every thread !!

Thank god the internet didn't exist all those years ago when a vote for re-election looked likely!! Unfortunately it seems that today's football fans are somewhat short in patience and tolerance. Our start has been poor but our performances good, ultimately it will come good so people need to chill a bit !!

 

[BFC1997]

I would imagine that initially he and the coaches were fully aware of what was likely to be the best team. Since then injuries, departures, loss of form have all effected the decisions.

But even when everyone has been fit, there's been rotation in key positions in the league games.

 

[Billy Hunt]

But even when everyone has been fit, there's been rotation in key positions in the league games.

When has everyone been fit/available?

Things will settle now.

The back five is easy to pick - Bentley, Dalsgaard, Egan, Bjelland, Henry.
Woods and Sawyers should start in the middle with either Mokotjo or Yennaris.
Watkins, Maupay and Clarke (Jozefzoon is looking a little off-form) as the front three.

Vibe and Canos will take two of the front three spots when fit.

 

[BFC1997]

Everyone can come on here and say 'this is our best team' and 'it will settle now' after a defeat but until we start winning games it's going to keep changing. It's DS responsibility to pick a team and stick with it, he has struggled to do that this season and it's probably one of the reasons we are lacking leaders on the pitch.

Comments below:

The back five is easy to pick - Bentley, Dalsgaard, Egan, Bjelland, Henry.

Does DS agree with this? Up until a few days ago everyone was convinced Bjelland was finished and Barbet was our best CB.

Woods and Sawyers should start in the middle with either Mokotjo or Yennaris.

Does DS agree with this? On occassions when everyone has been fit, Josh McEachran has been playing. And how often do you rotate between Kamo and Nico? Is it disruptive to keep changing it?

Watkins, Maupay and Clarke (Jozefzoon is looking a little off-form) as the front three.

Vibe and Canos will take two of the front three spots when fit.

Does DS agree with this? When Vibe was playing he was dropped for Maupay...

 

[Billy Hunt]

Everyone can come on here and say 'this is our best team' and 'it will settle now' after a defeat but until we start winning games it's going to keep changing. It's DS responsibility to pick a team and stick with it, he has struggled to do that this season and it's probably one of the reasons we are lacking leaders on the pitch.

Comments below:


Does DS agree with this? Up until a few days ago everyone was convinced Bjelland was finished and Barbet was our best CB.

Does DS agree with this? On occassions when everyone has been fit, Josh McEachran has been playing. And how often do you rotate between Kamo and Nico? Is it disruptive to keep changing it?

Does DS agree with this? When Vibe was playing he was dropped for Maupay...

You will have to ask Dean Smith. :shrug:

 

[Bridge Bee]

Successful sides have a settled spine at least. After 7 league games we must be on our 4th different centre back pairing and numerous central midfield combinations. And that's why we look like strangers.

Decide on your best team and pick it, regardless of transfer fees paid, what someone did last season, etc.

 

[BFC1997]

You will have to ask Dean Smith. :shrug:

My point is that he doesn’t know!

 

[Billy Hunt]

My point is that he doesn’t know!

Have you asked him? :shrug:

 

[BFC1997]

Have you asked him? :shrug:

It is evidenced by the first several games...

 

[Billy Hunt]

Jota, Colin and Dean were all used before they were sold.

Vibe, Canos, Dalsgaard, McEachran and Henry have all had injuries.

Woods was unavailable for a time.

Mokotjo is taking time to adjust to the Championship.

Things will settle down. :shrug:

 

[whyteleafebee76]

The thread is about having a settled team rather than necessarily the best team (as other circumstances dictate whether that is possible or not). So the question feels more about whether DS should settle on a side and only make changes when they are enforced.

I am a big advocate of keeping the back 4 and keeper as settled as possible, I would probably also add the CDM to that group but really you can go beyond that an argue that a settled starting XI allows the players to start to become a cohesive unit where everyone knows their role. Changes should then only made when energy levels start to dip later in the season, niggles, suspensions and tactical changes.

 

[Nige150]

I've seen very little evidence of us counter-pressing personally. Certainly not with a significant number of players taking part all at once to do it effectively.
At the moment it looks like copying the tactics of others and implementing them poorly.

I agree. I've watched this closely and it isn't happening. Always a big gap between the midfielders. Too many small players too - the midfielder with height is Romaine, but he doesn't jump or tackle. I think we often look open at the back too when the wing backs are pressing forward and possession is lost