Administration

[GlasgowBee]

I view this from afar with a heart felt consideration for my beloved club, these are my thoughts but I realise that I don’t have a business brain and therefore may have got things wrong...please correct me and let the learning process begin

We are in debt
The reason for this debt has bullied us into silence
This same reason has representatives on the board of our beloved club so still exercises influence
Future investment would be hindered due to the past wanting paid back
This season we are not doing well

What are the chances of us getting relegated – fairly strong unfortunately

We need to rid ourselves of the debt
We need to rid ourselves of the cause of the debt
We need to rid ourselves of the representatives on the board

The cause of all this misery and suffering is banking on us doing one thing…that we will never take the club into voluntary administration and risk losing points

Correct me if I am wrong, but what would the creditors be owed if we did this, a couple of pence for every pound would be nice

We lose 10 points and may get relegated…we may get relegated anyway this season as we seem to not need administrators to lose points hand over fist…admit it, it’s a bad season and its not going to get better…we are down…very down…but not out…

Why don’t we use this dismal form to our advantage…voluntary admininstration, companies we owe money to don’t get what they put in so are shafted, we can restructure the club so there are no free loaders on the board…we start next season one division down but free of debt…and no more bully boys in the background to dictate communication etc etc…we would be leaner, meaner and much much keener than we are now.

I have posted this as a practical solution…but I realise that it may have more holes in it than on old pair of socks…in which case let the moderators delete it

 

[Brain-dead Bee]

I'm no expert, but wouldn't the administrator sell-off our main asset (GP) to cover our debts?

 

[Edmundo]

Some people sat near to me at Cheltenham said we should go into administration. The problem is that the creditors would get 100p in the £ and we would be left with nowhere to play. If you think it's bad now, imagine how bad it would be if we didn't have a ground.

 

[GlasgowBee]

I'm no expert, but wouldn't the administrator sell-off our main asset (GP) to cover our debts?

Im hoping that those with a business head can provide such insight...however I am not aware of any other club selling its ground during administration...however I await a flurry of posts to prove me wrong...

 

[Edmundo]

Probably because other clubs either didn't own their grounds, or they weren't worth enough to solve the problem.

Another factor is that you would be paying an administrator north of £250k to sell the ground for less than we could probably sell it ourselves.

Sorry, but it's madness. Administration is no solution to our problems.

 

[NorthamptonBee]

I'm glad someone has brought this up as every other club who has been down that route hasn't sold their ground. Perhaps that c*nt Noades has conditions regarding administration written in to the glorious gesture of signing over BFC to BU for eff all.
He still believes he did us a great favour.

 

[Edmundo]

Actually on second thoughts, the administrator may try to sell the club as a going concern first. If he or she succeeded, however, then the debts would remain. So we would still be in the smelly stuff.

 

[SmiffyBee]

Actually on second thoughts, the administrator may try to sell the club as a going concern first. If he or she succeeded, however, then the debts would remain. So we would still be in the smelly stuff.

only 10 points worse off...

 

[Nick Hester]

I'd like to understand the facts aswell..

If the club appoint a manager who basically is there just to look after things and we accept relegation (which could be a possibility) then would the administration option be beneficial to the Club?

If Fitz gets the nod is this the sign of the way forward for Brentford?
Accepting relegation and administration?

I really don't understand the implications..can anyone enlighten me?

 

[GABS]

I too am no financial whizz kid but if this plan were such an easy option I would have thought BFC would have done it last season or the season before. Then we would have got rid of the debt and stayed in Lg.1 :scratch:

As I understood it though Administration is not the same as Bankruptcy/Liquidation in that the debts
are not written off - again we need one of the clever accountants to advise us plebs

 

[Edmundo]

There would only be a benefit if the people who are owed money would accept less than 100p in the £. I am quite sure that none of them will. And we'd have a huge bill to pay to the administrator.

 

[Ace Face]

Administration is defo not the answer as we will lose GP. We need to try and reach some sort of 200yr repayment period for our various loans/liabilities.

Maybe the Monster Raving Loony Party will take over LBH and write off our short term loan.

We have one chance and this Lionel Road, but sadly small steps forward on this needs to be replaced with fecking great contracts being signed steps.

 

[NorthamptonBee]

There would only be a benefit if the people who are owed money would accept less than 100p in the £. I am quite sure that none of them will. And we'd have a huge bill to pay to the administrator.

But Leicester had Filbert St or where they in the Walkers by then, either way a prime location in the town for housing and Bradford who have done it twice still have their place so their owed can't have held out for 100p in the £. In fact in Leciester's case I'm sure I remember 10p in the pound and the local business folk talking of their demise due to this derisory offer.
Rotherham are even building up their ground a few months after!

 

[Edmundo]

We owe money to Barclays Bank, Hounslow Council, Ron Noades, Ian Jones, Matthew Benham, Alan Bird, Eddie Rogers, John Herting and Bees United.

Which of these do you think are going to accept less than full repayment?

 

[GlasgowBee]

I too am no financial whizz kid but if this plan were such an easy option I would have thought BFC would have done it last season or the season before. Then we would have got rid of the debt and stayed in Lg.1 :scratch:

In the last few season promotion has been close at hand and Im sure the fan base would not have accepted losing ppoints and dropping out of the run-in.

I always thought that the creditor would be offered less than 100p in the pound...that was a risk of remaining a creditor...unless the creditor could just request the ground as pay off...but then surely the administator has a responsibility to keep the company going and selling the very surface on which the company trades would seem a bit daft...

I always thought the stumbling block was not so much the financial outcome but the loss of points which after all is the name of the game and many fans would revolt rather than keep calm and see the wood for the trees

 

[Edmundo]

No, the points are a side issue IMHO. Creditors are entitled to be repaid in full if the administrator can raise enough cash. The trick here relates to planning permission issues on Griffin Park. However, these have the effect of diminishing what an administrator would get for selling it, but probably not to the extent that the creditors lose out.

 

[Nick Hester]

I too am no financial whizz kid but if this plan were such an easy option I would have thought BFC would have done it last season or the season before. Then we would have got rid of the debt and stayed in Lg.1 :scratch:

Not really as we were in the Play Offs at the end of both seasons.. a ten point deduction then would have null and voided them..

 

[GlasgowBee]

We owe money to Barclays Bank, Hounslow Council, Ron Noades, Ian Jones, Matthew Benham, Alan Bird, Eddie Rogers, John Herting and Bees United.

Which of these do you think are going to accept less than full repayment?

I dont know, but larger institutions and companies that are only using it to service the loss against tax liabilities could take the hit and the administartor would know that...thats what they would be paid for.

As for individuals who have put into the club I would not expect them to make a loss, their generosity should be rewarded...but money from companies is fair game.

The administrator would know that having recently sold off a football ground, one of their coffers is swelled already!

Anyone know an administrator who could answer these questions...do they make companies accept a low return, can they negotiate with banks and council re debt better than us...its a bit like private medicine really you pay your money for the administrator to help you not hinder

 

[NorthamptonBee]

We owe money to Barclays Bank, Hounslow Council, Ron Noades, Ian Jones, Matthew Benham, Alan Bird, Eddie Rogers, John Herting and Bees United.

Which of these do you think are going to accept less than full repayment?

The Leicester lot that were going bang didn't accept their figure it seemed that they were told that was their figure.

It was Leicester that promoted the 10 point deduction as they cleared their debts and paid huge fees and salaries and easily went up to the Prem with the other chairmen shouting foul.

 

[lincolnbee]

The Leicester lot that were going bang didn't accept their figure it seemed that they were told that was their figure.

It was Leicester that promoted the 10 point deduction as they cleared their debts and paid huge fees and salaries and easily went up to the Prem with the other chairmen shouting foul.

didnt ipswich do similar ?

 

[RoyalOakBee]

Edmundo, how about this probably equally not possible way out...........

we sell 49% of the current value of GP now to a developer raising approx £4.9M on its current value. We use that money to pay off those debtors such as Noades, LBH and BBank that do not have the long term interests of BFC as their main focus. Then in partnership with the said and pre chosen developer, we build a new stadium of required size (12,000 cap with further development opportunity to raise to say 24,000) with suitable corporate facilities. With a link to the leisure centre close by if LBH want to join in the fun.
No Hotel, NO Mono ******* Rail!!
Upon completion of the new stadium we re value GP and take our 51% share minus building costs into our new stadium and go forth.....

 

[rebus]

Edmundo, how about this probably equally not possible way out...........

we sell 49% of the current value of GP now to a developer raising approx £4.9M on its current value. We use that money to pay off those debtors such as Noades, LBH and BBank that do not have the long term interests of BFC as their main focus. Then in partnership with the said and pre chosen developer, we build a new stadium of required size (12,000 cap with further development opportunity to raise to say 24,000) with suitable corporate facilities. With a link to the leisure centre close by if LBH want to join in the fun.
No Hotel, NO Mono ******* Rail!!
Upon completion of the new stadium we re value GP and take our 51% share minus building costs into our new stadium and go forth.....

Our debts are about 8.5 million.

 

[Leicester Bee]

Had we had playing assets, administration might not be a bad idea.
And, my opinion on administration was that it was possible to negotiate a settlement with creditors, if they could be persuaded that it was that or no return as the club could declare itself bankrupt.

 

[Streetboy]

Our debts are about 8.5 million.

We need a definitive answer on this. Wasn't the figure given at the BU AGM £7million, or would that have been at the end of the last financial year? I was looking for a definitive answer this morning to stick in the Fighting Chance Fund story, but unfortunately the only person I was told could tell me for certain was not answering his phone!

 

[Kevhone]

As I understand things the bank loan from Barclays and the loan from Hounslow Council are secured against the redevelopment potential of Griffin Park. It follows that if Brentford go into administration the ground will be put on offer to developers. In turn they must find another ground for Brentford before they develop. However, if the club is in administration this might enable the buyer to appeal against this planning condition. Outcome - homeless and worse off than ever.

 

[bg bee]

As I mentioned on a different thread, some time ago I remember GP being valued at between £12m and £18m depending on planning restrictions, so ROYAL OAK BEE may have a valid argument.

 

[rebus]

We need a definitive answer on this. Wasn't the figure given at the BU AGM £7million, or would that have been at the end of the last financial year? I was looking for a definitive answer this morning to stick in the Fighting Chance Fund story, but unfortunately the only person I was told could tell me for certain was not answering his phone!

abee's blood pressure will go into overdrive if you don't include the inter-company debts, which I think is fair enough.

The Chairman's statement at the Bees United AGM gave the figure at around £8.5 million I believe

 

[Banana]

We only count some of the debt. Net current debtors always seem to be excluded from the calculation.

Bizarre

 

[Beepositive]

We lose 10 points and may get relegated…we may get relegated anyway this season as we seem to not need administrators to lose points hand over fist…admit it, it’s a bad season and its not going to get better…we are down…very down…but not out…

I think you will find that the 10 point deduction would not 'kick in' until the beginning of next season. The FA, I believe, changed the rules after Leicester and Ipswich used it to their advantage, knowing they were going to be relegated anyway.

Although I don't know where our next point is coming from, we are (only ) 14 points off the play offs and 7 points off 12th place.

In principle Glasgow Bee, I agree with your sentiments about administration but I don't think the points deduction would take place this season.

 

[RoyalOakBee]

abee's blood pressure will go into overdrive if you don't include the inter-company debts, which I think is fair enough.

The Chairman's statement at the Bees United AGM gave the figure at around £8.5 million I believe

Was this what you wanted.

http://www.brentfordfc.premiumtv.co....1~23326,00.xls

Not relevant to the idea I am suggesting.
If we raise £4.9M by selling a 49% stake in GP now we could repay the following:
Barclays bank £2.148M
Altonwood £1.250M
LB Hounslow £.5M

and still have some change.
We would only be in debt then to our INVESTOR loans which given that we could now move forward toward a new stadium without fear of Noades etc would mean that we could in PARTNERSHIP with our Developer stakeholder build a new stadium. The Developer stakeholder would do so knowing that we would pay them to build it on an open book policy meaning they can make a profit albeit pre agreed and that his investment in the site at GP would continue to escalate in its value. By the time we had built and moved into the new stadium planning permission would not be an issue on GP, the site would be worth IMHO somewhere around £25M pre developed. Their stake in that would be £4.9M now and £12.5M then totalling £17.4M.
With PP they could sell it on without developing it and take a £7.6M profit. thank you very much.

As for our investor loans such as abee they would have secured our future, would get an annual return on their investment once we had moved into the new stadium and the new BFC product could then refinance that debt or turn the loans into shares if agreed by the Investors.

 

[south coast bees]

why with not even half way of the season gone is everyone thinking we are going down, can no one save us?
of course we can, lots of points to be won and the right man can get this team winning.
its not all doom and gloom,just seems like it.

 

[RoyalOakBee]

We only count some of the debt. Net current debtors always seem to be excluded from the calculation.

Bizarre

It is not bizarre Banana when you consider what was distributed at the fans forum last summer (as shown in my last reply to Markbfc. )
Communication of Net Current debtors is not mentioned only third party debtors. That is where the confusion arose as has been discussed to death in other forums.
Could you explain please from your position of knowledge exactly what and who the Net Current debtors are, to those of us who looked at that document and made the same mistake in its reading.
Also with so many members on the GPG it would be blatantly wrong of you to assume that everybody knew what the hell we are talking about.
That is why some people posts questions....to get answers!

 

[Banana]

Could you explain please from your position of knowledge exactly what and who the Net Current debtors are, to those of us who looked at that document and made the same mistake in its reading.

At a guess:

HM Customs and Excise (or whatever they are called these days)
The Inland Revenue
Fred West
Fullers Brewery
London Electricity

.... those are the normal type of trade debtors that companies have (except Fred West of course).

We are also burning through the cash brought in by player sales over the summer.

I know you don't want to hear it, but the amounts you have posted are only PART of the story.

 

[Banana]

Communication of Net Current debtors is not mentioned only third party debtors.

Yes we know this. The question is why?

And then why do you say that what is described as "thrid party debt" as "the debt" when in fact not all third party debt is included in "third party debt"

 

[RoyalOakBee]

Yes we know this. The question is why?

And then why do you say that what is described as "thrid party debt" as "the debt" when in fact not all third party debt is included in "third party debt"

FFS sake Banana Joe Bourke of Bees United presented those accounts. Last week it appears BU on whose board you and Mark sit, could and did not produce Audited accounts. Not Royal Oak Bee mate Bees United board member! ask him.

As for my post FFS (again) it is just an idea for debate and discussion.
I was merely saying that we could pay off those three now and the rest later.
The rest ie Ian Jones, John Herting, Abee, etc are all it would seem prepared to invest interest free for an agreed time. So pay off the debts that are not interest free and those people we do not wish to see benefit from the new business model ie Noades from the money raised by partnering with an investor stakeholder/developer (St George for example)

We are just being greedy and saying why should we sell part of it now for them to make a £7M plus profit later when that money could go to the club if we can build the new stadium on our own or without giving up a part of GP.
That is where BB is now IMHO andf that is why Lionel Road will escalate in costs with hotels and mono rails and the like which are of no benefit to us and will only mean we are spending more money to start the new model off.
I believe going that we were looking to discuss ALTERNATIVES.

 

[Banana]

FFS sake Banana Joe Bourke of Bees United presented those accounts.

What accounts did he present?

I thought you said earlier that JB said what the "third party debt" was. I *know* you have JB's definition wrong. Hence, you are also stating the wrong figure for third-party debt. Iknow you don't like hearing it, but there are none that can hear that do not listen


Oh and lay of the "FFS sake" please as i) too many "sake"s ii) it's a little rude and a tad unnecessary

 

[RoyalOakBee]

What accounts did he present?

these ones

http://www.brentfordfc.premiumtv.co....1~23326,00.xls

the ones that say third party debt is £6.2M
the ones that say we owe Barclays Bank £2.148M
The ones that say we owe Altonwood £1.25M
the ones that say we owe LBH £.5M.

And tomorrow night I will reveal myself and ask him the WHY? because many fans were confused by it and if it is wrong and if it should have included the Net Current Debtors then I will ask him why it did not.

Now i do not wish to discuss that thread anymore, can we please debate the ideas put frward on this one. Debate and discussion normally means ideas are at the end of the debate deemed to be worthless or good ideas. Just because the initial idea comes from Royal Oak Bee does not mean it does not have some merit somewhere, the trick is to polish the good and dispense with and replace the bad.

 

[Russell]

Our debts are about 8.5 million.

According to the BU Chairman's statement for the year ending 31 May 2006, "BFC debts amount to some £7 million...." but "the Group had external debt of £5,676,000" though this has yet to be signed off by Altonwood's auditors. Why BB insisted these unaudited figures should be included in his statement is beyond me, but if BU had BFC under control, they'd have been ready. But that's another story.

Anyway, if your figure is correct Mark, and being on the BU board you're a damn sight closer to the truth than most of us plebs on here, are you suggesting BFC has somehow lost over £1 million in the last 6 months, and can you give us an outline of where the money's gone?

 

[Banana]

And tomorrow night I will reveal myself

Will this be in the gents or ladies?

 

[cpbee2]

rofl rofl rofl rofl

 

[Nick Hester]

And tomorrow night I will reveal myself and ask him the WHY? because many fans were confused by it and if it is wrong and if it should have included the Net Current Debtors then I will ask him why it did not.

.

Now theres a surprise!!! Joe Bourke confusing people!

I've given up attending forums and BU Meetings etc because I'm fed up with sitting through hours of drivel regarding accounts that I never understand..

Then at the end of it you say to yourself 'its not me is it...THEY don't even understand them themselves!!'

 

[JTofBFC]

We need a definitive answer on this. Wasn't the figure given at the BU AGM £7million, or would that have been at the end of the last financial year? I was looking for a definitive answer this morning to stick in the Fighting Chance Fund story, but unfortunately the only person I was told could tell me for certain was not answering his phone!

I think markbfc's figure of £8.5m includes the inter company loan of £1.3m owed by Brentford FC to Griffin Park Stadium. As BU own 60% of both Companies it is a bit disingenuous to include this as real debt as it is quite clear that repayment would not be demanded. Whether the other shareholders of GPS would want their 40% of the £1.3m is another story. In reality, I assume this debt which was created solely as a tax "manoeuvre" by the previous owners is likely to be rolled on for a further period. The remaining £7.2m also includes around £1m due to BU which again is unlikely to be demanded back.(although some of that is owed on again by BU to investors/Loan Note holders so that may be slightly different). A good bit of the £1m is donations however which may be shown as a loan liability but could be written off by BU at any time and are certainly not repayable whilst the club is trading.

It suits some peoples arguments to claim that our debt is higher than it really is and it suits others arguments to claim it is lower than it is.

The truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[rambo]

I would think that administration would be the worst outcome for BFC.

Currently we have one real asset (GP) that once it is zoned by the council to allow development to take place, will be worth more than our debts!

So the only real way out of this mess, without selling the club to an investor is for a new stadium to be built and GP developed through a partnership with a developer that allows us to get the true value of GP.

If BFC was placed in administration i think the out come would be the following

a) club is sold to a investor most likley to be a developer looking at the potential of GP, say good bye to BFC eventually!

b) administrator decides that the best option to him is sell GP to pay of debts and his fees, BFC then comes out of administration with no debts, no ground to play at and i would think very little money left over (if any) after all debts paid off. All the creditors would be paid 100% of debt as the asset value would cover these!

Both these option's will not get BFC the true value of the asset and will not leave BFC any real future!

I cannot see any other out come from administration for BFC and as such the only way foward is for the BFC to get the true value from the sale of GP by the development of GP and the building of a new stadium to move into. Unless the current revenue generated by BFC can be increased to a level that allows for enough profit to repay the current debt (which does not seam possible).

 

[rebus]

Whether the other shareholders of GPS would want their 40% of the £1.3m is another story..

That's why I've included it. I consider it a "live" debt, as should anyone with shares in GPSL. Doesn't Martin Lange own 40 odd percent?

 

[GlasgowBee]

I suppose I was hoping that administration could mean seeing the back of certain individuals, their companies and there representation on the board...which is like a sword of damocles over the club

...at least we would have the freedom to speak and express opinion on how some conduct business...

at the moment we are in debt, tongue tied and impotent

sell GP to an interested party at 1p, go into administration without the ground as an asset, be gifted the ground back....bobs your uncle! Are you telling me in the land of business and commerce this can not be done

God I love being naive

anyone know simon jordans phone number...he knows a trick or two

 

[GlasgowBee]

Just a question, if an administrator is paid to come in and stream line the finances...would they force the selling of the assets that are fundamental to the nature of the business...no ground does not mean we could find another one and surely the administrator must weigh up the rent that would have to be budgetted for if a new ground was needed...now thats throwing good money after bad which, correct me if I am going off on one here, is not what an administrator is about is it?!

sell the ground and sell the kit...that is really going to streamline the company to be able to move forward and trade...ok a bit sarcastic but you get my drift

also why have all the other clubs that have gone in administration come up smelling of roses, still with grounds intact and a company fit to trade...there are numerous examples in england and scotland

mind you nobody would want the legacy of "I was the bloke in charge who put us into administration"

 

[Carri Bee Un]

sell GP to an interested party at 1p, go into administration without the ground as an asset, be gifted the ground back....bobs your uncle! Are you telling me in the land of business and commerce this can not be done

This couldn't be done. I'm sure there are many reasons, but a lot of the debt would be secured against the ground.

also why have all the other clubs that have gone in administration come up smelling of roses, still with grounds intact and a company fit to trade...there are numerous examples in england and scotland

Which other clubs have gone into administration and retained ownership (not a long term lease) on their ground?

 

[Carri Bee Un]

Not having a pop incidentally Mr Glasgow, I am genuinely curious if there are any clubs that went into administration that won their own ground. GP is all that is left to BFC.

 

[JTofBFC]

Just speculation as to what might happen in an administration really. One likely scenario would be that the administrator would face a great deal of pressure from various parties, fans, football league, PFA etc not to sell the ground for development as that would effectively be the end of the club unless he could arrange with us to share at Loftus Rd for example.

Other alternative would be to do a sale and leasebcak on the ground with the creditors repaid from the sale proceeds in full.

We'd then be left without a ground we own, paying lease rentals to play there and with a 10pt deduction to face.

It really isn't an option in our situation.(yet)

 

[GlasgowBee]

This couldn't be done. I'm sure there are many reasons, but a lot of the debt would be secured against the ground.

Ok..I understand...thanks for placing some reason on my line of questioning

Which other clubs have gone into administration and retained ownership (not a long term lease) on their ground?

To be honest I dont know, all I do know is enough clubs have been in administration from motherwell up here to leicester and rotherham down there...ok i cant real of millions but its past midnight and there are more but I aint a statto...and I dont know the situation behind there grounds...all I can remember is that no-one has left there ground as yet due to administration...but brentford being brentford we would be the first to have to do this!!!!!

In all of this I am speaking from my heart to want to rid the club of the cancer of its past and I want to debate every course of possible action to clear us of the legacy created by former "investors", see the back of them and move forward, stronger and leaner with no parasites to weigh the club down