Boxing

Boxing

Jimbo said:
I remember similar debates in the mid eighties, then Tyson comes along and its ker-ching time!

Building up fighters records is as old as the hills, even Joe Louis had a "bum of the month" club (or whatever it was called)

I think the nineties in particular saw a golden era in boxing, particularly in this country. It is only to be expected that there will be dips as well as peaks.

The De La Hoya/Mayweather fight (and the money earned) shows there is still huge interest in boxing.

It is a sport with a huge and proud history and WWE/UFC/MMA will never ever replace it.
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Back in the 80's although the Heavyweight division was dire, the belts were still in the Hands of americans, (Holmes, Witherspoon e.t.c.). People in the US are turning off Heavyweight, (and for heavyweights, read boxing) as they have no real desire to watch a bunch of Uzbek's, Kazakh's and Ukranians fighting for the multitude of titles that there are.

The problem is that Boxing personalities and commentators are taking shots at MMA when their problems are nothing to do with their competitors. It is their own fault that the sport is (percieved to be) in such bad shape.

We have WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, WBU, WBF, IBO, IBA, IBC, IBU and no doubt any other combination of three letters you can think about putting together, all with their own "world champions" who throw up excuse, after excuse, after excuse as to why they can't fight any of the other champions when it comes down to the fact that they and their promoter do not want to risk losing and thus suffering a reduction in their pay packet.

After seing a whole series of hometown and dodgy decisions and title challengers who can barely breath, let alone box, fighters refusing to fight most dangerous opponent for one reason or another, people began to look elsewhere.
 

Boxing

Deathstroke said:
Back in the 80's although the Heavyweight division was dire, the belts were still in the Hands of americans, (Holmes, Witherspoon e.t.c.). People in the US are turning off Heavyweight, (and for heavyweights, read boxing) as they have no real desire to watch a bunch of Uzbek's, Kazakh's and Ukranians fighting for the multitude of titles that there are.

The problem is that Boxing personalities and commentators are taking shots at MMA when their problems are nothing to do with their competitors. It is their own fault that the sport is (percieved to be) in such bad shape.

We have WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, WBU, WBF, IBO, IBA, IBC, IBU and no doubt any other combination of three letters you can think about putting together, all with their own "world champions" who throw up excuse, after excuse, after excuse as to why they can't fight any of the other champions when it comes down to the fact that they and their promoter do not want to risk losing and thus suffering a reduction in their pay packet.

After seing a whole series of hometown and dodgy decisions and title challengers who can barely breath, let alone box, fighters refusing to fight most dangerous opponent for one reason or another, people began to look elsewhere.
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I agree entirely about the "heavyweight" problem leading to a "boxing" problem but do not agree that the problem is due to the of nationality of the fighters leading Americans to switch off.

Remember that John Ruiz, Lamon Brewster, Shannon Briggs and Chris Byrd have all been "American" heavyweight champions whilst the division has been in decline

The real problem is that none of the champions have been very good or that exciting to watch. The division is crying out for the next great heavyweight to come in and clear the desks.

Although if this is a young American it would be a financial bonus for the sport I dont think it is a complete necessity. I mean, I wouldnt class Lewis's reign as being part of the decline, would you?

I agree that the alphabet soup titles is a complete joke.

I agree about dodgy hometown decisions, dodgy contenders and dodgy promoters - but none of this is new in boxing is it?

You are right that all of this is an internal boxing problem and to be honest I am not up on the the criticisms being levelled at MMA et al by boxing personalities.

My argument would be that there is a lull in boxing (and it is due) but there is absolutely no reason to believe it is anything more than temporary when you look at the history of the sport.

MMA may enjoy a bit of success although I cant see it getting close to boxing in any way long term, it is a fad in my opinion.

However, if it does grow in popularity and does start taking away PPV revenue from boxing it may encourage the promoters and the governing bodies in the "noble art" to get their house in order along the lines you have suggested - so good luck to them.
 

Boxing

Jimbo said:
MMA may enjoy a bit of success although I cant see it getting close to boxing in any way long term, it is a fad in my opinion.

However, if it does grow in popularity and does start taking away PPV revenue from boxing it may encourage the promoters and the governing bodies in the "noble art" to get their house in order along the lines you have suggested - so good luck to them.
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I think they are worried, UFC get huge PPV buyrates
 

Boxing

I think it would be great for boxing to have some decent competition, as it may encourage them to buck up their ideas.

I just dont think MMA/UFC will provide that long term.

Boxing has been here before with WWE etc during the Eighties (as mentioned in the original article about Marc Ratner).

Also, that article suggested that the appeal of UFC/MMA may be that it doesnt have the "baggage" of boxing, deaths and horrible injuries in the ring were mentioned. Apparently UFC is safer and will appeal more to the "soccer moms".

However, on this thread, the only fights that have been mentioned are ones where fighters have been allowed to fight on with horrific injuries.

IMO It is making money based on it being ultra violent and a bit of a freak show.
 

Boxing

Jimbo said:
I think it would be great for boxing to have some decent competition, as it may encourage them to buck up their ideas.

I just dont think MMA/UFC will provide that long term.

Boxing has been here before with WWE etc during the Eighties (as mentioned in the original article about Marc Ratner).

Also, that article suggested that the appeal of UFC/MMA may be that it doesnt have the "baggage" of boxing, deaths and horrible injuries in the ring were mentioned. Apparently UFC is safer and will appeal more to the "soccer moms".

However, on this thread, the only fights that have been mentioned are ones where fighters have been allowed to fight on with horrific injuries.

IMO It is making money based on it being ultra violent and a bit of a freak show.
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Wrestling v Boxing is neither here nor there. Wrestling is a entertainment show, Boxing is a sport. It''s like saying that People are going to stop watching football and start watching Dream Team on Sky One instead.

Another thing I forgot to complain/whinge about with boxing is the influence of the US TV networks. HBO and Showtime are dictating to the world organizations who can and can't fight for world titles. Can you imagine if the BBC told UEFA Greece were not suitable for the Euro 2004 final and UEFA changed the opponent?

The thing is with MMA (I don't call Boxing WBC so won't call Mixed Martial Arts, UFC) the attacks are spread over the entire body, except for obvious maiming points (eyes, spine, happy sacks e.t.c.). As a result there are less concussive injuries in the sport.

However, it is asthetically unpleasing to the eye, for non-fight fans. People will go on about the "cage" which as absolutely no baring on injuries to fighters, other than being more efficient at keeping the contest within the confines of the designated area, than a ring is. Punches to downed opponents are for the purpose of getting a stoppage, rather than rendering your opponent unconscious, as you cannot generate the same K.O. power leaning forwand and punching downwards that you can when you are upright on an even footing.

As for "horrific injuries" I remember Jess Harding winning Denns Andries WBC Light Heavyweight belt after fighting 3 rounds with a broken nose and who can forget Danny Williams fighting Mark Potter with his arm hanging out of the socket. "Horrific injuries" are not unique to either sport.

For some reason, people want to create a schism between the two sports. Dana White is issuing challenges to boxers. Kermit Cintron is issuing challenges to Sean Sherk. It's all a load of b***ocks really. A boxer will win a boxing fight against a Mixed Martial Artist and a Mixed Martial Artist will win a MMA bout against a boxer. Simple as that.

The advantage that MMA has is that there is one recognised organization at the top of a pyramid of organizations meaning they dont have the problem boxing has of 14 different promters and TV networks all pulling in different directions.
 

Boxing

Deathstroke said:
Wrestling v Boxing is neither here nor there. Wrestling is a entertainment show, Boxing is a sport. It''s like saying that People are going to stop watching football and start watching Dream Team on Sky One instead.

Another thing I forgot to complain/whinge about with boxing is the influence of the US TV networks. HBO and Showtime are dictating to the world organizations who can and can't fight for world titles. Can you imagine if the BBC told UEFA Greece were not suitable for the Euro 2004 final and UEFA changed the opponent?

The thing is with MMA (I don't call Boxing WBC so won't call Mixed Martial Arts, UFC) the attacks are spread over the entire body, except for obvious maiming points (eyes, spine, happy sacks e.t.c.). As a result there are less concussive injuries in the sport.

However, it is asthetically unpleasing to the eye, for non-fight fans. People will go on about the "cage" which as absolutely no baring on injuries to fighters, other than being more efficient at keeping the contest within the confines of the designated area, than a ring is. Punches to downed opponents are for the purpose of getting a stoppage, rather than rendering your opponent unconscious, as you cannot generate the same K.O. power leaning forwand and punching downwards that you can when you are upright on an even footing.

As for "horrific injuries" I remember Jess Harding winning Denns Andries WBC Light Heavyweight belt after fighting 3 rounds with a broken nose and who can forget Danny Williams fighting Mark Potter with his arm hanging out of the socket. "Horrific injuries" are not unique to either sport.

For some reason, people want to create a schism between the two sports. Dana White is issuing challenges to boxers. Kermit Cintron is issuing challenges to Sean Sherk. It's all a load of b***ocks really. A boxer will win a boxing fight against a Mixed Martial Artist and a Mixed Martial Artist will win a MMA bout against a boxer. Simple as that.

The advantage that MMA has is that there is one recognised organization at the top of a pyramid of organizations meaning they dont have the problem boxing has of 14 different promters and TV networks all pulling in different directions.
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The wrestling versus boxing point I was making isnt directed to them being similar professions. The point is that they were in competition for audience share and PPV revenue. This is mentioned in Paragraph Six of the article you put up.

I am sure many purists on both sides would argue that MMA and boxing are as far removed as boxing and wrestling, to be honest it is unimportant. What matters is that they are in direct competition for audience share and that vital PPV money.

Horrific injuries occur in both sports and that is understandable and unavoidable. The difference between the two sports (in my opinion) is that MMA is being marketed in a very cynical and quite nasty way.

It is publicised as the most dangerous most violent of sports and although it will attract genuine fight fans that know their stuff the majority of casual viewers will be intrigued and encouraged to watch the shows by that promise of pornographic violence.

The reality proves to be less exciting or explosive than boxing (usually) and viewers will get bored with the technical battles that take place on the canvas.

Boxing has definitely got its problems and always has done but remember that the wba/wbc/ibf/wbo etc etc mess is a relatively new problem in the sport and the result of fall outs between the top brass of what was (at one point) one organisation over seeing the sport.

The promoters of MMA have already shown what a dody old lot they can be so dont be surprised if the sport also begins to see rival organisations crop up if the money starts coming in.
 

Boxing

Jimbo said:
The wrestling versus boxing point I was making isnt directed to them being similar professions. The point is that they were in competition for audience share and PPV revenue. This is mentioned in Paragraph Six of the article you put up.

I am sure many purists on both sides would argue that MMA and boxing are as far removed as boxing and wrestling, to be honest it is unimportant. What matters is that they are in direct competition for audience share and that vital PPV money.

Horrific injuries occur in both sports and that is understandable and unavoidable. The difference between the two sports (in my opinion) is that MMA is being marketed in a very cynical and quite nasty way.

It is publicised as the most dangerous most violent of sports and although it will attract genuine fight fans that know their stuff the majority of casual viewers will be intrigued and encouraged to watch the shows by that promise of pornographic violence.

The reality proves to be less exciting or explosive than boxing (usually) and viewers will get bored with the technical battles that take place on the canvas.

Boxing has definitely got its problems and always has done but remember that the wba/wbc/ibf/wbo etc etc mess is a relatively new problem in the sport and the result of fall outs between the top brass of what was (at one point) one organisation over seeing the sport.

The promoters of MMA have already shown what a dody old lot they can be so dont be surprised if the sport also begins to see rival organisations crop up if the money starts coming in.
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At the moment, there are several organizations all round the world, but it is the aim of all fighters to try and get into the top two organizations (UFC in the USA and Pride in Japan). The Cage Rage champion doesn't claim his belt is more prestigious than either the Pride or UFC champions belts.

A lot of people confuse NHB and MMA. No Holds Barred fighting is exactly what it says on the cover, no holds barred. It is illegal in mostly everywhere in the western world. When the UFC was created, it was a no holds barred, no time limit, no weight class, car-crash of an event. However, once Zuffa purchased the event from SEG, they then went about turning it into a sport, rather than a bar room brawling olympics event. They then created rules that were closer to the rules of the main martial arts disciplines. (Boxing, Kickboxing, karate, Jiu-Jitsu e.t.c.)

Thing is, the media are forever dredging up the "There are no rules", and "bone breaking" sound bites in order to promote/discredit the sport.

As much as people may like to talk about the beauty and art of Boxing, the most memorable fights are the ones where two fellas are banging sh*t out of eachother. Boxing and MMA do not differ in the fact that their respective audiences are there to see a ****ing tear up.

I also believe that claims about MMA killing Boxing are totally unfounded. PPV figures show that people are buying Boxing PPV's and UFC PPV's however WWE PPV's are the ones that have taken a real hit, save for the biggest shows (Wrestlemania e.t.c).

Boxing will be fine but it will shrink as as sport as a result of people's own greed and stupidity rather then any competition from MMA. Look at the damage done in the country to it as a result of the move from terrestrial channels to SKY.

They need to avoid things like John Ruiz's remarkable rize up the ratings through beating nobody in particular, the whole Roy Jones - Graciano Roccighiani - WBC fiasco, The 472-0 fighers who are more then two years from having a meaningful fight.

I know that the MMA promoters are a dodgy old lot, how have they shown this to you, though?

If you are curious about the sport, I'd suggest that the best show to watch would be The Ultimate Fighter on Bravo. That will give you a good look at certain aspects of the training, the fights themselves, without the crappy blood and guts promotion.
 
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Boxing

The marketing of the sport in the media has reaked of sensationalism and I think the promoters have had a huge hand in this, knowing that all that stuff about "no holds barred" etc will sell tickets I think they have played it up a bit as well. I will be interested to watch how it all develops in the next few years but I think that the initial false selling to the audience could do the sport real harm in the future.

I will give the show on Bravo a look, I have been watching bits and pieces of "cage rage" over the last few months on 427 (i think) Butterbean is on now and then along with a few others, its not bad, just not as explosive as I was expecting with most fights getting very technical on the ground - I am going to give it a fair crack though!

The other promotion I watched was on Eurosport a few years ago, Bob Sapp was knocking people over left right and centre until he met this Dutch fellow whose name I cant remember who was absolutely brilliant (think he was a thai boxer or something..Bozinisky? Something like that, just a great technical fighter). It was a Japanese promotion and Frans Botha fought on one show as well as I recall. Would that have been Pride?

Totally agree with what you say about boxing - it stinks of corruption from top to bottom but its still a great sport!
:)
 

Boxing

Jimbo said:
Totally agree with what you say about boxing - it stinks of corruption from top to bottom but its still a great sport!
:)
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True. I still think the best fight I have ever seen in any sport is Barrera - Morales I.

The Sapp v Bonjasky were in K1 which is a kickboxing organization. They also have Ray Mercer on their shows. Unfortunately Mercer is under the impression that his vastly faded boxing skills are enough to carry him through. Bonjasky's foot emphatically told him otherwise 22 seconds into their bout.
The action is compressed as they are 3 round bouts, which leads to some cracking fights but sometimes they like to have freaks like Akebono the 6"10 500lb sumo wrestler v Hong Man Choi, the 7"2 ex basketball player.

Pride is much like UFC but it takes place in a conventional ring and has some subtle rule differences.
 
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Boxing

Deathstroke said:
If you are curious about the sport, I'd suggest that the best show to watch would be The Ultimate Fighter on Bravo. That will give you a good look at certain aspects of the training, the fights themselves, without the crappy blood and guts promotion.
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Superb episode this week with the big mouth **** trying to shed 22lbs in 24hrs to make weight for his fight :eek:
 

Boxing

****ers:mad1:

(www.bbc.co.uk)
Boxer shot over club smoking row

The shooting is being investigated by Operation Trident detectives
A former British heavyweight boxer was shot when he asked customers at a club to stop smoking.
James Oyebola, 47, is critically ill in hospital after being shot in the head and leg at Chateau 6 in Fulham Road, in south-west London.

Three men were seen running away after the 6ft 9ins tall former fighter, from north-west London, was shot.

Police said Mr Oyebola was involved in an altercation about smoking before being shot in the rear garden area.

His former manager Frank Maloney said he had been told the boxer had been shot when he asked some people in the club to stop smoking.

A search of the area was undertaken by police, including armed officers, following the shooting in the early hours of Monday.

Gentle giant

Mr Maloney told BBC London: "What I was told was that he asked some people to stop smoking and the next thing a gun was pulled and he was shot."

He described Mr Oyebola as a "gentle giant" and said he had done a lot of work in the community to get youngsters into boxing and sport.

"I was absolutely devastated, struck dumb when I heard the news," he said.

Detectives from Operation Trident, which investigates gun crime in the black community, are investigating the shooting.

Det Ch Insp Scott Wilson said: "I would urge anyone with information to come forward and assist us in bringing those responsible for gravely injuring James to justice."
 

Boxing

James Oyebola died today after the life support machine was switched off.
The BBC also said that the shooting is now being treated as murder inquiry.


RIP
 

Boxing

I miss ARD. :( Shocking knockout. :eek:
 

Boxing

Scratchy said:
I miss ARD. :( Shocking knockout. :eek:
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You could probably pick up an old analogue dish for a fiver and watch it, assuming the Germans haven't all gone digital. They used to show a lot of boxing on ARD.
 

Boxing

Message from Audley Harrison

Hi All

Just a quick shout out to let you know I am fighting on September 29th in Sheffield on a world title show to be showcased on Setanta in the UK. Tune in!!

This outing is low key and will give me the chance to shake of some ring rust. I expect to be back in the ring in Nov / Dec.

I will not be able to respond to messages; I'm focusing in these few weeks to make sure I'm sharp.

I will give more details about my deal with Dennis Hobson after the fight, but I'm happy to announce our partnership today and wish to thank Dennis for the opportunity.

Regards
Audley A-Force Harrison




(Tumbleweeds roll by...........)
 

Boxing

....................The Fraud continues.....................
 

Boxing

Good couple of fights coming up over the next couple of days. :sorted:

Tonight on Sky
British Supermiddleweigh title
Carl Froch vs Robin Reid

Tomorrow on Setanta
WBC\WBA Cruiiserweight Title
Jean-Marc Mormeck (FRA) v David Haye (UK)

WBA Welterweight title
Shane Mosely (US) v Miguel Cotto (PR)
 

Boxing

I've just watched David Haye become the new WBA and WBC Cruiserweight Champion. He survived a bad 4th round, when he was put down and looked ready for the taking, to come back and knock out Mormeck in the 7th with a vicious right hand being the finishing punch. :sorted:

As for the Froch fight it was pretty one sided and I think the best thing Reid can do is retire from the sport. I'm not that big a fan of Froch though and I'm not quite sure he has what it takes to become a world champion. We shall see though.
 

Boxing

i think we have a british Evander Holyfield on our hands here!!


what a punch:eek:


Haye could easily win the world Heavyweight title when he moves up!!
 

Boxing

thanks for that link. enzo froze a bit on the big stage - i hope he'll be back...

haye did look impressive - hopefully he can build on this win.

this is the first time i've looked at this thread. interesting old debates from the past. boxing's had quite a good year, hasn't it - it's back in the public eye in Britain. let's hope Calzaghe delivers vs Hopkins :cool:
 

Boxing

Calzaghe V Jones tonight.

Both fighters have seen better days, but could be an interesting fight. Will Jones' power and superior skills win? Will Cazaghe's speed, fitness and work rate win the day?
 

Boxing

kojebee said:
Calzaghe V Jones tonight.

Both fighters have seen better days, but could be an interesting fight. Will Jones' power and superior skills win? Will Cazaghe's speed, fitness and work rate win the day?
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Calzaghe tore him to bits lol
 

Boxing

Surely it is time for Calzaghe to retire. He has nothing left to prove, is unbeaten and quite honestly there is nobody out there who can lace his gloves. Has now fought in some of the best venues in the world and presumably made a lot of money which will enable him to retire and live a very privliged existance.
 

Boxing

Probably is the time for him to retire and keep that impeccable record intact.

However, they mentioned on 5 Live yesterday morning that there is a re-match clause in the contract with Roy Jones Jr so that if Calzaghe has another fight it has to be against Jones Jr.

Whether Jones Jr would want to put himself through that again reamins to be seen, but have a feeling Calzaghe might be tempted just to have the chance to bow out at the Millenium Stadium in front of his own fans.
 

Boxing

Phoenixkeeper said:
Probably is the time for him to retire and keep that impeccable record intact.

However, they mentioned on 5 Live yesterday morning that there is a re-match clause in the contract with Roy Jones Jr so that if Calzaghe has another fight it has to be against Jones Jr.

Whether Jones Jr would want to put himself through that again reamins to be seen, but have a feeling Calzaghe might be tempted just to have the chance to bow out at the Millenium Stadium in front of his own fans.
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The clause was assuming that the fight was going to be competitive. I can't imagine how they would sell a rematch.
 

Boxing

i hope Calzaghe retires, a true champion, and not fall for the money to fight either Jones or Hopkins again. Time to go Joe. One of the best boxers in his generation.
 

Boxing

Yes I do. Haye to win by 3rd round stoppage.
 

Boxing

I think it's got to be Haye-Barrett seems a reasonable opponent but I take Hay to win on a stoppage
 

Boxing

Cracking performance by Haye there. :sorted:
 

Boxing

cheers Jimbee -Haye seems better suited to Heavyweight and there dose'nt seem a lot of oppo at that weight currently. Hopefully Haye can make a good run for himself
 

Boxing

Haye has speed and power, but not sure what else. He can hit, but can he fight? A slower paced fight suits him, because it allows him to pick people off. The more you bring it to him, the more ragged he looks (especially beyond round 4) but he has the power in both hands to turn fights.


If I were him, I'd steer clear of Vitali and aim for either Wladimir or Nicolai Valuev. Valuev won't be able to deal with his speed and Wlad had a tendancy to fall apart when he comes under fire.
 

Boxing

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