How Do We Improve?

[Lionel Bart-At]

This is a ridiculous thread and a total over-reaction.

I have to admit that I have sympathy with what you say. One defeat off the back of a nine match unbeaten run!! Thomas seems like a very pensive chap who I'm sure will be constantly exploring tactical and personnel tweaks in his own bonce anyway. He's already demonstrated that he's perfectly capable of implementing plan B where necessary (as opposed to some previous coaches!). He will be well aware of areas for development but trust he won't be making knee-jerk changes after a one-off single goal defeat.

 

[Vid]

I'd prefer to watch us play and loose rather than have to watch the kind of football Nottingham Forest played. Even the pundits who know little outside the premiership are commenting on our style of attractive, fast football. We are creating so many chances but just not accurate enough finishing. Our young forwards just need to calm down in front of goal then we can afford the occasional defensive balls up.

 

[TheHairdresser]

JM? Get real. Has been useless since he signed. DOFs don't make many mistakes but him as a replacement for Ryan Woods?

We've got him for another 3/4 mths, he offers something different in a game when it gets stretched and the oppo are tiring. Not advocating him starting but can't comprehend why anyone would lock him in the bootroom when he might tangibly have a real difference like Saturday after 65/70 mins. Forest smothered us in the final 3rd, and we weren't incisive enough in the middle. A 3rd midfielder playing on the left would possibly offer an alternative when we're struggling to get back into the game.
BTW, I'd take useless if his exertions in the next 16 games helps us along to 52pts +.

 

[jlove]

We've got him for another 3/4 mths, he offers something different in a game when it gets stretched and the oppo are tiring. Not advocating him starting but can't comprehend why anyone would lock him in the bootroom when he might tangibly have a real difference like Saturday after 65/70 mins. Forest smothered us in the final 3rd, and we weren't incisive enough in the middle. A 3rd midfielder playing on the left would possibly offer an alternative when we're struggling to get back into the game.
BTW, I'd take useless if his exertions in the next 16 games helps us along to 52pts +.

You don't really get the GPG, do you?

 

[shouldbee]

You don't really get the GPG, do you?

lol

 

[TheHairdresser]

You don't really get the GPG, do you?

Oh dear Mr Love, we appear to have that Monday morning feeling again.

 

[Hamburger Hill]

I'm mostly fine with where we are currently....consistently inconsistent...we win some, lose some and occasionally draw some too. The football is very' easy on the eye and yes we overplay sometimes and get ourselves in trouble but I'd rather watch that than playing percentages and getting it into channels.

But NLB asks a good question (in life as in football if you're not improving you stand still and then ultimately go backwards as everyone improves around you)...

For me I agree with Magic to a degree that the squad is paper thin and I'm sure that's something we'll address over the sumer. I would also say injuries haven't helped particuarly to key signings like Marcondes/Henry who we haven't seen as much of as we would have hoped.

I'd like us to look to sign one or two older heads in the summer to complement our young squad. I think DB will come good again but we need to show patience after what's been a difficult season for him.

There's far more to be optimistic about than worried by and I'm sure our owner and DOF's are planning a big summer ahead.

 

[TheHairdresser]

I'm mostly fine with where we are currently....consistently inconsistent...we win some, lose some and occasionally draw some too. The football is very' easy on the eye and yes we overplay sometimes and get ourselves in trouble but I'd rather watch that than playing percentages and getting it into channels.

But NLB asks a good question (in life as in football if you're not improving you stand still and then ultimately go backwards as everyone improves around you)...

For me I agree with Magic to a degree that the squad is paper thin and I'm sure that's something we'll address over the sumer. I would also say injuries haven't helped particuarly to key signings like Marcondes/Henry who we haven't seen as much of as we would have hoped.

I'd like us to look to sign one or two older heads in the summer to complement our young squad. I think DB will come good again but we need to show patience after what's been a difficult season for him.

There's far more to be optimistic about than worried by and I'm sure our owner and DOF's are planning a big summer ahead.

Standing still in this lge isn't advisable as I think it'll be infinitelty stronger next term, given the calibre of the teams coming up from Lg1. I anticipate three from Luton, Barnsley, Sunderland and Pompey will be in the mix next season, an altogether stronger lg imo. Don't think there'll be an Ipswich/Bolton/Rovrum scenario. Not sure the old heads argument will filter into the recruitment policy come summer, as i) it'll contradict everything the DofF have sanctioned before and ii)not sure OHs argument improves a team in this division. Bar Gareth Barry/Jake Livermore/Hiddlestone, most of the promo bunch are full of youngsters/loannees(Leeds, Derby, 'boro,etc). I personally think it's a regressive step.

I think it'll be a crucial summer, hopefully with the sales/recruitment done early to cement the team dynamic.

 

[banburybee]

I think the analysis that our analysts do indicates that for us to get promoted we need to be lucky. That is why when we were in a great position in our first year after promotion MB was very keen at Christmas to exploit the situation by spending money. You know who blocked this and we know what happened. I do not think we will ever be able to run away with this league, we bide our time and if things fall our way we go for it. It’s the mantra of the professional gambler , keep ticking over until you sense a lucky streak then go for it.
As Larry says this year was buggered by unforseen but significant impacts. But a win on Sunday and who knows what might happen, we deserve some luck

 

[nick logan]

Notice the d and g are back now we have unluckily lost out first in 10 :lol:

 

[Leedsbee]

Five years of fabulous football in the Championship can hardly be described as frustrating. How do we get promoted, keep doing what we're doing and get lucky.

 

[TheHairdresser]

I think the analysis that our analysts do indicates that for us to get promoted we need to be lucky. That is why when we were in a great position in our first year after promotion MB was very keen at Christmas to exploit the situation by spending money. You know who blocked this and we know what happened. I do not think we will ever be able to run away with this league, we bide our time and if things fall our way we go for it. It’s the mantra of the professional gambler , keep ticking over until you sense a lucky streak then go for it.
As Larry says this year was buggered by unforseen but significant impacts. But a win on Sunday and who knows what might happen, we deserve some luck

If you take away the top 8/10 teams in the PL, I don't think that there's much diff between the rest and the top 12/14 of the c'ship. Maybe stronger squads out-performing their equivalent teams from the champ over a season but on their day very little difference, bar stellar strikers/wingers. Given our strategy I doubt this will fund and lead to a Wolves/Norwich promo campaign, so have to replicate the Fulham/Leeds approach. Feel that this approach had a greater chance of leading to the PL in 2015/16/17, questionable whether it will succeed in the yrs ahead.

Note, add proper defending to that list for promo aswell.

 

[Brentford_till_die]

This beginning of this model got us promoted to the Championship.

yes but we made some important signings that came with experience and leadership

 

[Bizzy Bee]

Notice the d and g are back now we have unluckily lost out first in 10 :lol:

And no doubt the Glory Hunters when we beat Swansea to advance in the FA Cup on Sunday!

 

[nick logan]

And no doubt the Glory Hunters when we beat Swansea to advance in the FA Cup on Sunday!

the d and g don't post when we win , thats the annoying thing

 

[The Pipe]

the d and g don't post when we win , thats the annoying thing

Twas ever thus

 

[mhead bee]

I'd prefer to watch us play and loose rather than have to watch the kind of football Nottingham Forest played. Even the pundits who know little outside the premiership are commenting on our style of attractive, fast football. We are creating so many chances but just not accurate enough finishing. Our young forwards just need to calm down in front of goal then we can afford the occasional defensive balls up.

We have just scored three goals in 5 consecutive games for the first time in our football league history, I don’t think the problem is with the young forwards. It is the absolute comical goals we have gifted over the last 5 years, even dean and tarkovsky used to drop crazy bollox every now and then but this season it has been ridiculous how many gifts we have given to the opposition. A team of our ability and football style should not be sitting 4 places above relegation and our goals for column is as good as anyone’s.

 

[beetee]

We have just scored three goals in 5 consecutive games for the first time in our football league history, I don’t think the problem is with the young forwards. It is the absolute comical goals we have gifted over the last 5 years, even dean and tarkovsky used to drop crazy bollox every now and then but this season it has been ridiculous how many gifts we have given to the opposition. A team of our ability and football style should not be sitting 4 places above relegation and our goals for column is as good as anyone’s.

Agreed... Defensively we are cack!
Until we sort this out we aren't going anywhere fast.
If the rumours of us chasing a CB in the January window were correct TF is fully aware that we need strengthening in this area.
I would imagine we must be the most generous givers of gifts in all the 4 leagues!
Do the stats show expected feck ups?

 

[rhbee]

Do the stats show expected feck ups?

Nope, but they do show we have one of the youngest starting XI's in the league... This inexperience may have something to do with it, but there isn't much we can do about that on our budget.
Personally, I think that some are over playing the importance of just that one game. Yes, we were woeful defensively, but that happens occasionally, even to some of the best teams. We still deserved more than we got.

 

[Houghton Bee]

We've got him for another 3/4 mths, he offers something different in a game when it gets stretched and the oppo are tiring. Not advocating him starting but can't comprehend why anyone would lock him in the bootroom when he might tangibly have a real difference like Saturday after 65/70 mins. Forest smothered us in the final 3rd, and we weren't incisive enough in the middle. A 3rd midfielder playing on the left would possibly offer an alternative when we're struggling to get back into the game.
BTW, I'd take useless if his exertions in the next 16 games helps us along to 52pts +.

He was given another chance on Saturday and contributed practically nothing once again (although he didn't do much wrong and at least looked a little more interested than normal). He isn't the answer, and never will be. I'd rather give someone out of the B squad a go, a few 20 mins here and there could massively aid their development despite the obvious risks.

 

[TheHairdresser]

He was given another chance on Saturday and contributed practically nothing once again (although he didn't do much wrong and at least looked a little more interested than normal). He isn't the answer, and never will be. I'd rather give someone out of the B squad a go, a few 20 mins here and there could massively aid their development despite the obvious risks.

I'm not on the JM bandwagon(either way), understand he's not the future but don't see blooding the B squad before we're safe and the possible repercussions in that exercise as prudent at the moment. We have options from the B team on the wings and upfront, not too sure I'd be blooding them in the middle against the opponents we'll face in the next 5/6 games. This is the comeback lg, even at 3/4-0 with 20mins to go, not sure I'd advocate this. Maybe when we reach late April/May and the picture becomes clearer.

 

[King Bee]

The frustrating thing is seeing the likes of Sheff Utd and Bristol gracing the top 6 and not seeing any of one their squad I'd like in our team. What's the secret?

 

[mhead bee]

Nope, but they do show we have one of the youngest starting XI's in the league... This inexperience may have something to do with it, but there isn't much we can do about that on our budget.
Personally, I think that some are over playing the importance of just that one game. Yes, we were woeful defensively, but that happens occasionally, even to some of the best teams. We still deserved more than we got.

r
It depends whether this is just a blip in out 10 match unbeaten run or whether we are heading into another 5 game losing streak, this has been the pattern for the last 4 years it seems.

We were playing well in the first half of the season but giving 2 laughable comedy goals away a game made it too difficult. I hope we aren’t slipping into that nonsense again and we are going to pick it up again.

 

[clactonbee]

Sheff Utd and Bristol City have the 2nd and 3rd best defensive records in the division. Only Middlesbrough are better. This is where we have to improve as its been like it since we have been in the Championship.
Improve our defending and we can be up there.

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

The frustrating thing is seeing the likes of Sheff Utd and Bristol gracing the top 6 and not seeing any of one their squad I'd like in our team. What's the secret?

Experience, continuity, and reasonable quality combined with decent physical attributes / workrate / mentality across the park (Billy Sharp continuing to bang them in helps too!).

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

Sheff Utd and Bristol City have the 2nd and 3rd best defensive records in the division. Only Middlesbrough are better. This is where we have to improve as its been like it since we have been in the Championship.
Improve our defending and we can be up there.

Whilst I definitely think we can improve our defending - I also think we're often at a defensive disadvantage regardless - having a lot of small or lightweight players.
Maupay's great but a Billy Sharp is probably going to be a lot more use in your own box for example.
Benrahma is lethal going forwards but again isn't a big unit that's going to bully the opposition in our box.
And so on and so forth.

 

[BaildonBee]

The frustrating thing is seeing the likes of Sheff Utd and Bristol gracing the top 6 and not seeing any of one their squad I'd like in our team. What's the secret?

Sheffield Utd like us are a team rather than a group of individuals. In my view they are a very good team with an outstanding manager. The energy in their midfield is outstanding.

 

[The Joker]

Demands for “ experienced “ players need to consider the cost to the club as such players don’t come cheap

It does seem that we're both paying more for players and paying players more. We've been paying around the £3m mark for first team squad players recently, when we struggled to sell good players at that level only a couple of seasons ago.

We seem to be facing a real conundrum - we can't afford those experienced players that it looks as if we need to get us to the premier league - not the English ones anyway.

Someone else commented that we've got a sizeable war-chest now due to transfer outgoings, but I don't think it's the transfer fees holding us back. It's the wages these players command - both the total cost and the impact it would have on squad morale with some early two or three times what most earn.

As @jlove comments, we're now comfortable paying £3m or more for players. But we're still taking a risk by buying talented - not fully developed - players in both England and abroad. And they don't command the wages of the experienced players. We're getting there, but I suspect we need everything to fall our way (as it so nearly did in that season under Warburton) when we'll then have a real go at promotion.

 

[Guildford Bee]

. We're getting there, but I suspect we need everything to fall our way (as it so nearly did in that season under Warburton) when we'll then have a real go at promotion.

I recall someone referring to that season as catching lightning in a bottle which sums it up perfectly.

That said, our approach has evolved further since that season, particularly in terms of loan policy and recruitment. While this is no doubt the right thing to do for long-term sustainability, it does make the task even more difficult.

 

[essexbees]

Sheffield Utd like us are a team rather than a group of individuals. In my view they are a very good team with an outstanding manager. The energy in their midfield is outstanding.

I agree, reckon they will get one of the top two places

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

Sheffield Utd like us are a team rather than a group of individuals. In my view they are a very good team with an outstanding manager. The energy in their midfield is outstanding.

Yeah, unlikely the likes of Dirty Leeds, I think they've been well run/managed, and would be nice to see them go up (as our chances are gone) rather than a parachute payment fuelled club or overspender.

 

[Dazza]

Whilst I definitely think we can improve our defending - I also think we're often at a defensive disadvantage regardless - having a lot of small or lightweight players.
Maupay's great but a Billy Sharp is probably going to be a lot more use in your own box for example.
Benrahma is lethal going forwards but again isn't a big unit that's going to bully the opposition in our box.
And so on and so forth.

Maupay is 5.6
Sharp is 5.7

Not sure it would that much difference?

 

[TheHairdresser]

Yeah, unlikely the likes of Dirty Leeds, I think they've been well run/managed, and would be nice to see them go up (as our chances are gone) rather than a parachute payment fuelled club or overspender.

Leeds have been stumbling since Xmas, can't see them keeping pace with Norwich who'll win this lg by 8pts. Sheff Utd may come unstuck as I feel they're been playing to their maximum most of the season. The Baggies look built to grind out the results and anticipate them taking advantage, yet another parachute laden club bouncing back up.
Team of the season has to be Sheff Utd, as they're not long out of Lg1 and are greater than the sum of their parts. The only problem with them getting promoted is if they drop immediately back down they'll be another team financially doped in this division for 2020. I lose count of the current number in this position. Don't know who'll make up the last relegation spot from the PL, Brighton are getting awfully close to that zone. Think anyone will need +40pts this season. Cardiff on current form could survive, sending a newbie down(Southampton, Palace?).

 

[IDontBeeLieveIt]

Maupay is 5.6
Sharp is 5.7

Not sure it would that much difference?

Not a massive height difference true but I maintain he'd have the edge defensively imo (he's also stockier as well as a bit taller). In isolation it's not a massive thing but I don't think we're as chock full of midfielders/forwards who are useful defensively compared with some other sides.

 

[Guildford Bee]

The frustrating thing is seeing the likes of Sheff Utd and Bristol gracing the top 6 and not seeing any of one their squad I'd like in our team. What's the secret?

Bristol City have an excellent set-up and a recruitment system not all that dissimilar from ours, don’t they?

Sheffield United clearly also have their own way of doing things which although the polar opposite of ours is obviously working for them.

Both very well run clubs on and off the pitch, IMO.

 

[Dazza]

Not a massive height difference true but I maintain he'd have the edge defensively imo (he's also stockier as well as a bit taller). In isolation it's not a massive thing but I don't think we're as chock full of midfielders/forwards who are useful defensively compared with some other sides.

I'd argue Neal's nuicence factor would make him have the edge but it's probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other really.

I agree with your overall point though and it's something we've lacked for a while. A 20 year old Yaya Toure in our midfield would be a lively find from the DoFs

 

[Holysmit]

The fact that Norwich are top and that Bristol City have won nine in a row shows how much the league was there for the taking this year.

We have suffered due to poor goalkeeping, and due to having some things happen off the pitch that have been awful but sadly i cant see the league being this bad again for sometime.

 

[mhead bee]

Leeds have been stumbling since Xmas, can't see them keeping pace with Norwich who'll win this lg by 8pts. Sheff Utd may come unstuck as I feel they're been playing to their maximum most of the season. The Baggies look built to grind out the results and anticipate them taking advantage, yet another parachute laden club bouncing back up.
Team of the season has to be Sheff Utd, as they're not long out of Lg1 and are greater than the sum of their parts. The only problem with them getting promoted is if they drop immediately back down they'll be another team financially doped in this division for 2020. I lose count of the current number in this position. Don't know who'll make up the last relegation spot from the PL, Brighton are getting awfully close to that zone. Think anyone will need +40pts this season. Cardiff on current form could survive, sending a newbie down(Southampton, Palace?).

SU have sharpe probably one of the best goal scorers at this level in the last decade, Washington who is hardly prolific but will put a shift in and David mcgoldrick also a good scorer at this level. In January they went out and brought two player in on loan, Gary Madine in who is a proper menace and scott hogan. I don’t think they have any intention of burning out and I think the myth around them not chucking round money is incorrect, that is some salary demands there alone.

 

[mhead bee]

The fact that Norwich are top and that Bristol City have won nine in a row shows how much the league was there for the taking this year.

We say that every year.

 

[Holysmit]

We say that every year.

I base it on having seen both City and Norwich twice and thinking both were **** each time.

 

[TheHairdresser]

SU have sharpe probably one of the best goal scorers at this level in the last decade, Washington who is hardly prolific but will put a shift in and David mcgoldrick also a good scorer at this level. In January they went out and brought two player in on loan, Gary Madine in who is a proper menace and scott hogan. I don’t think they have any intention of burning out and I think the myth around them not chucking round money is incorrect, that is some salary demands there alone.

Quite right, you've just reminded me how strong they are offensively. Always felt Bramall Lane was a bit of a fortress, more so than any number of other 'big' Northern/Midlands clubs. They've as much chance of going up as anybody. I think what's played into their hands(and should've for us) is how poor/inconsistent the big-hitters have been, their consistency(so far) has been their outstanding trait. Don't think anyone would fancy playing them in the play-offs.

 

[Mr Cynical]

close thread????

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

Two things at the moment: give Daniels a run, and go man to man on set pieces to see if that makes a difference. Nothing else. We've been on a great run, so not a lot wrong. But, with promotion gone, and relegation not a threat, no harm in small experiments.

And if going man to man, leave two or three up front at corners to create a bit of space in our box to help this.

Small experiments! I'll take the credit for the concept, but who else on here thought of putting Sergi at right wing-back? There's a reason why TF is Head Coach and we're not! lol

 

[Lionel Bart-At]

Also, tonight, I was struck by Deano's inability to "crack our code" despite his inside knowledge. Thomas out-thought him. And, of course, the back three/five was not a Smith invention. Dean showed no imagination in trying to combat this TF innovation.

 

[TW3Bee]

Not a lot we can do to improve on that last night.

 

[Vid]

Not a lot we can do to improve on that last night.

Shots 23 Shots on Target 6

Just saying.:computer:

 

[liverbee]

If Villa played as well as Dean Smith thought, we are almost perfect.

 

[nick logan]

Notice the d and g are back now we have unluckily lost out first in 10 :lol:

And they have gone again :lol:

 

[Bigbee]

we should of been a few goals up

 

[GP200]

we should of been a few goals up

..............yep...........enjoy Luton............