James McClean

[NorthamptonBee]

The bloke is a *****, my parents are Irish but still where poppies. Lots of Irish people died in the war.
It is about remembrance for the war dead, not the troubles in ireland. Grade A c##t!

Well said.

 

[Vid]

It was Wigan Athletic Club commemorating Remembrance Day by " the team " wearing a poppy shirt . If he didn't want to wear the team shirt he should not have played.

 

[Nick Hester]

I heard that JD probably wouldn't have worn one had he played yesterday. Doesn't bother me at all.

Do you know this as a fact?

If so I'd like Jonathan to come and out and say so....

As this is a pretty big allegation...

 

[Ghost]

Do you know this as a fact?

If so I'd like Jonathan to come and out and say so....

Who cares. Wear one or don't for your own reasons. It's a free country after all. You should respect those that died for that, but you don't have to for that exact same reason too.

 

[Beenut]

If his German manager and Argentinian managers and players can show their respect then he has no excuse.
Yet another who hates Britain but not quite enough to turn down the massive salary .

Yes its a personal choice not to buy one but this is one day a year when his club play in a shirt with a poppy on. Every other player and club in Britain except one* managed to do it.

Absolutely agree. Haven't read all of this thread. Did he stay quiet for the minutes silence in honour of the war dead? Because by his logic he shouldn't.

 

[Nick Hester]

Who cares. Wear one or don't for your own reasons. It's a free country after all. You should respect those that died for that, but you don't have to for that exact same reason too.

Totally disagree - I care.

 

[westwing]

The bloke is a *****, my parents are Irish but still where poppies. Lots of Irish people died in the war.
It is about remembrance for the war dead, not the troubles in ireland. Grade A c##t!

Yep, my Grandmother was shot by the British Army, she survived then and no ill feeling now.
I wear a poppy !!

 

[West Wilts Bee]

Totally disagree - I care.

I care as well, watched it on the tv British Para that landed in Arnham, Said about 22,000 Dutch died because of them. He said " Every time I think of it, it makes me cry" A Dutchman was interviewed, He said "None of the people in Arnham blame the British, as they were trying to liberate them" You can see what it meant to our forefathers. Incidentally the Dutchman , comes over every year to pay his respects, Cannot understand British,not only old school, but new British citizens that do not respect what most of us stand for in this country.

 

[Ghost]

Totally disagree - I care.

But you can't and shouldn't force people to wear poppies, neither should we be calling out people who choose not too. That would start to resemble the idelogies of exactly what we were fighting.

 

[nick logan]

But you can't and shouldn't force people to wear poppies, neither should we be calling out people who choose not too. That would start to resemble the idelogies of exactly what we were fighting.

Theres a difference between not wearing a poppy and refusing to play in a football shirt with a poppy on.

 

[thanetbee]

Theres a difference between not wearing a poppy and refusing to play in a football shirt with a poppy on.

whats the difference?

 

[nick logan]

whats the difference?

Because you can choose not to wear a poppy if you like but refusing to wear it on the shirt of the club paying you 1000's a week is wrong imho.

 

[thanetbee]

Because you can choose not to wear a poppy if you like but refusing to wear it on the shirt of the club paying you 1000's a week is wrong imho.

I can see your point, thanks

 

[Nick Hester]

This is a player who played for Northern Ireland before The Republic came in for him... He needs to make his mind up what side of the fence he is on.

Shame Wigan weren't at Millwall on Friday night...

 

[spirebee]

Disgusting actions. As Bernard Manning so eloquently put it these ****ers helped restock the German U boats in the Second World War.

Only a few underground republicans helped the Germans in the last war, while hundreds of thousands signed up to the British army. They also did the very same in the first world war while only a few thousand took part in the 'rising' of 1916.

Some people on here have an 'Us and them' attitude about too many subjects.
A lot of the right wing thinking keyboard army (on here) have been happy to sing anti Irish songs at football, but done f*ck all about the massive immigration problem that has run out of control over the last few decades (sitting on their hands and not voting e.g.)
Empires over the years have successfully divided and conquered, but the peoples of these Islands do an even better job of dividing themselves.
Isn't it time to move on and respect each others past at the same time; whatever their view?

 

[thanetbee]

Only a few underground republicans helped the Germans in the last war, while hundreds of thousands signed up to the British army. They also did the very same in the first world war while only a few thousand took part in the 'rising' of 1916.

Some people on here have an 'Us and them' attitude about too many subjects.
A lot of the right wing thinking keyboard army (on here) have been happy to sing anti Irish songs at football, but done f*ck all about the massive immigration problem that has run out of control over the last few decades (sitting on their hands and not voting e.g.)
Empires over the years have successfully divided and conquered, but the peoples of these Islands do an even better job of dividing themselves.
Isn't it time to move on and respect each others past at the same time; whatever their view?

Didnt see that dreadful comment from Thorne In the Side. Highly insulting and ignorant. Clearly didnt bother watching the rememberance event where the Irish Ambasador was present to represent the Irish dead from two world wars.

 

[hobbsy]

Do you know this as a fact?

If so I'd like Jonathan to come and out and say so....

As this is a pretty big allegation...

No as it didn't come from JD's mouth, and I don't know him personally.

 

[spirebee]

Didnt see that dreadful comment from Thorne In the Side. Highly insulting and ignorant. Clearly didnt bother watching the rememberance event where the Irish Ambasador was present to represent the Irish dead from two world wars.

The most iconic moment, to gauge Irish opinion, was when the England Rugby team played at Croke park a few years ago, which was the scene of a massacre by the British Army in the early 20's. It also has a stand called Hill 16, which was formed from the rubble of the Rising in 1916.
Everyone wondered what the reaction would be when an English team visited, playing an english game.
As the English anthem played you couldn't here a pin drop out of respect and also to show that the 82,000 in the stadium had moved on!
Some people on here should do the same.....it's F*CKING BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SpiderBee]

The most iconic moment, to gauge Irish opinion, was when the England Rugby team played at Croke park a few years ago, which was the scene of a massacre by the British Army in the early 20's. It also has a stand called Hill 16, which was formed from the rubble of the Rising in 1916.
Everyone wondered what the reaction would be when an English team visited, playing an english game.
As the English anthem played you couldn't here a pin drop out of respect and also to show that the 82,000 in the stadium had moved on!
Some people on here should do the same.....it's F*CKING BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brickie Chap]

If his German manager and Argentinian managers and players can show their respect then he has no excuse.
Yet another who hates Britain but not quite enough to turn down the massive salary .

Yes its a personal choice not to buy one but this is one day a year when his club play in a shirt with a poppy on. Every other player and club in Britain except one* managed to do it.

*no prizes for guessing who

Yet the new Celtic manger wore one eh

 

[Boscombe Bee]

Doesnt bother me that he didnt wear a shirt with a poppy on. Thats his choice and he gave his reasons, which he didnt have to do. Would have been plenty of players up and down the country this week with a poppy on their shirts without really giving a rats a**e whether it was there or not.

Im sure there were plenty of people not wearing poppies at Saturdays game despite them having many opportunities to purchase one. But thats there choice too.

 

[Paul O'Brien]

I was going to give my well-considered rationale and a full scale analysis, but this says it all to me.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...-to-wear-poppies-on-their-shirts-9851442.html

However, the poppy argument seems to be more about playing the man than the ball at the moment (tbh, it's become a symbol that's used to tar people, ironically rather like the white feather).

I wear a poppy, but I can see the justification behind McClean's argument - I must admit I'd never seen it in those terms before.

Boiled down to its simplest terms, here's what I think the position is as far as I'm concerned.

1) Should the poppy be a personal choice?
2) Should you have to justify your choice?
3) Should your employer have the right to force you to wear it?
4) Should other people have the right to condemn you for your personal choice?

The other questions I have in my head are - should the poppy stand only for British soldiers, British and Commonwealth soldiers or for any soldiers? And should it only be for the World Wars, or for any war?

Thoughts?

 

[wanderer paul]

Boiled down to its simplest terms, here's what I think the position is as far as I'm concerned.

1) Should the poppy be a personal choice?
2) Should you have to justify your choice?
3) Should your employer have the right to force you to wear it?
4) Should other people have the right to condemn you for your personal choice?

The other questions I have in my head are - should the poppy stand only for British soldiers, British and Commonwealth soldiers or for any soldiers? And should it only be for the World Wars, or for any war?

Thoughts?

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No.

You wear the poppy for whoever you wish to wear it for, British, Irish, Canadian, American, Indian, those from African nations, those from Asian nations, Australian, New Zealanders and any other nation that fought alongside those mentioned that I've missed out. Yes, it was for remembering those in WW1, but it's also included those from every other war or conflict since, where those men and women from the UK have served their country.

It's the Royal British Legion that has used the poppy to remember those that died and they include all wars and conflicts.

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/how-the-nation-remembers

 

[Nick Hester]

No as it didn't come from JD's mouth, and I don't know him personally.

Dangerous allegation that mate -

 

[Ghost]

Dangerous allegation that mate -

Really? Dangerous ?
Irishman maybe doesn't wear a poppy shocker. Wanderer Paul has put this to bed above, move on.

 

[Brain-dead Bee]

On the way back from Millwall on Saturday, I was pleased to note 2 young German women wearing poppies on the tube.... but, as others have said, it should be a personal choice.

 

[Ealing Bee]

McClean is not prepared to be seen in Wigan kit with a Poppy on it, but he's quite prepared - even proud - to be seen with this:

For those not in the know, that little badge is an Easter Lily, worn by extreme Republicans (effectively IRA supporters) in "honour" of the IRA Rising in Easter 1916.

For someone whose letter claimed that he respected those who fought and died in WW1, that hardly squares with his support for a tiny, unrepresentative gang who took arms against the British at a time when over 200,000 Irishmen were fighting in the British Army against the Germans during the Great War.

It is also reported that when McClean was asked on Twitter a couple of years ago about all his fellow Derrymen who fought in WW1, he tweeted back that they were "Uncle Toms". I can't find confirmation of this, but it would fit in with other declarations of his, such as his avowed love of the Wolfe Tones (Rebel Band), and IRA songs like 'The Broad Black Brimmer' or 'Take Me Home to Derry'.

Meanwhile, fellow Derryman Darron Gibson had no problem wearing a Poppy on his Everton shirt at the weekend, as indeed did McClean's other fellow ROI internationals, including eg team Captain John O'Shea.

 

[Ghost]

Him being a fenian and the general discussions around poppy wearing are too different things though aren't they.

 

[Ealing Bee]

Him being a fenian and the general discussions around poppy wearing are too different things though aren't they.

He is quite entitled to hold the views on the Poppy which he outlined in his letter.

He is also entitled to hold whatever political views he likes, too.

But if his personal politics should actually contradict his stated views on the Poppy, then he can expect to be taken up on it.

And in this case, I don't believe for one moment that the views expressed in the letter to Whelan, no doubt composed by another more literate type, accurately reflect his true feelings on such matters.

There is too much evidence to the contrary.

 

[detours]

For those not in the know, that little badge is an Easter Lily, worn by extreme Republicans (effectively IRA supporters) in "honour" of the IRA Rising in Easter 1916.

For someone whose letter claimed that he respected those who fought and died in WW1, that hardly squares with his support for a tiny, unrepresentative gang who took arms against the British at a time when over 200,000 Irishmen were fighting in the British Army against the Germans during the Great War.

I just don't know what you're getting at here? You believe that the occupation of Ireland was right?

Please clarify why the lily and his views are incompatible...

 

[nick logan]

I just don't know what you're getting at here? You believe that the occupation of Ireland was right?

Please clarify why the lily and his views are incompatible...

Occupation ?? , oh dear wheres Silly Hat !

 

[Beenut]

The other questions I have in my head are - should the poppy stand only for British soldiers, British and Commonwealth soldiers or for any soldiers? And should it only be for the World Wars, or for any war?

To me - the poppy is about everyone that has been killed in conflict - soldiers or civilians - all countries.

 

[Ealing Bee]

I just don't know what you're getting at here? You believe that the occupation of Ireland was right?

Please clarify why the lily and his views are incompatible...

This is nothing to do with the "Occupation of Ireland" [sic].

In his letter to Whelan, McClean claimed that he respected those British Army servicemen who fought in WW1.

Yet at the same time, he expresses his support for the tiny, unrepresentative and unelected band of rebels who rose against the British Army in Ireland, at the same time as their colleagues were dying in Flanders and elsewhere.

And remember, too, that many thousands of those in Flanders were themselves Irishmen, part of whose motives for joining up were to persuade the British Government that they should implement Home Rule in Ireland after the War was ended, the 1914 Home Rule Act having been suspended for the Duration. (Google eg "John Redmond MP" and "The Irish Volunteers" for further background).

Therefore McClean is trying to run with the (Easter Rising) Hares, whilst hunting with the (Respect for WW1) Hounds.

My own guess on this matter is that whilst McClean was able to get away with his Poppy protest two years ago at Sunderland without much comeback, he realised that he would face a much stronger reaction from Whelan if he tried it on at Wigan.

Therefore he composed/commissioned a letter which would get him off the hook.

Which would be fair enough, so long as that letter fairly reflected his true feelings. But there is considerable cause to doubt that this is the case - quite the contrary, in fact.

And it is that apparent duplicity on his part which needs to be challenged, every bit as much as the notion* that people should be forced to wear a poppy against their will.



* - Although a proud Poppy wearer myself, I think it wrong that others should be criticised for not wearing them. And I also think the football authorities have put players in an invidious position by forcing the issue with Poppies on the shirts. As a former head of the RBL said a while back, there are other, better ways in which Football could show its support for the cause.

 

[Vid]

I was going to give my well-considered rationale and a full scale analysis, but this says it all to me.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...-to-wear-poppies-on-their-shirts-9851442.html

However, the poppy argument seems to be more about playing the man than the ball at the moment (tbh, it's become a symbol that's used to tar people, ironically rather like the white feather).

I wear a poppy, but I can see the justification behind McClean's argument - I must admit I'd never seen it in those terms before.

Boiled down to its simplest terms, here's what I think the position is as far as I'm concerned.

1) Should the poppy be a personal choice?
2) Should you have to justify your choice?
3) Should your employer have the right to force you to wear it?
4) Should other people have the right to condemn you for your personal choice?

The other questions I have in my head are - should the poppy stand only for British soldiers, British and Commonwealth soldiers or for any soldiers? And should it only be for the World Wars, or for any war?

Thoughts?

Point three...should your employer force you to wear a uniform... the team shirt ? He has now set a precedent for players to say they don't want to wear the shirt because they don't agree with whatever is printed on it....

It was Wigan Athletic Football Clubs recognition of Remembrance day not an individual player. If he felt that strongly about it he should have withdrawn from the team then he might have earned some respect ...

 

[Ealing Bee]

Point three...should your employer force you to wear a uniform... the team shirt ? He has now set a precedent for players to say they don't want to wear the shirt because they don't agree with whatever is printed on it....

The point about a company uniform is that it is necessary towards doing the job, and/or reinforces a common identity and unity amongst all the workforce.

A Poppy on a shirt has nothing to do with the former, and actually could counteract the latter.

It was Wigan Athletic Football Clubs recognition of Remembrance day not an individual player. If he felt that strongly about it he should have withdrawn from the team then he might have earned some respect ...

Why should an individual have to suffer because he holds views which contradict the orthodoxy? I thought that the freedom to dissent was one of the reasons we (UK) fought the two World Wars.

It might be different if the gesture was somehow connected to football.

 

[jlove]

The other questions I have in my head are - should the poppy stand only for British soldiers, British and Commonwealth soldiers or for any soldiers? And should it only be for the World Wars, or for any war?

To me - the poppy is about everyone that has been killed in conflict - soldiers or civilians - all countries.

The poppy was a method to raise funds for disabled ex-servicemen and was focused on Armistice Day. It has been subsequently hijacked by Church and State for "Remembrance Sunday" which is a lot different.

 

[detours]

In his letter to Whelan, McClean claimed that he respected those British Army servicemen who fought in WW1.

Yet at the same time, he expresses his support for the tiny, unrepresentative and unelected band of rebels who rose against the British Army in Ireland, at the same time as their colleagues were dying in Flanders and elsewhere.

I've got news for you - the British Army stationed in Ireland were a foreign, occupying force - they weren't fighting WWI.

And the Easter 1916 rebels are celebrated in Ireland today. But have it your way :shrug:

 

[hanworthbee]

Really? Dangerous ?
Irishman maybe doesn't wear a poppy shocker. Wanderer Paul has put this to bed above, move on.

there from two different countries

 

[Vid]

I assume the player is under contract to wear the company uniform .The club chose to add the poppy to their uniform. I'm sure some players have strong opinions about the products advertised on their shirts. It's an endorsement by the club not an individual player.

"Why should an individual have to suffer because he holds views which contradict the orthodoxy? I thought that the freedom to dissent was one of the reasons we (UK) fought the two World Wars."

He was free to dissent by not playing ...as was Eric Liddle...Euan Murray.

 

[hanworthbee]

he's an ira sympathiser....

 

[Paul O'Brien]

Point three...should your employer force you to wear a uniform... the team shirt ? He has now set a precedent for players to say they don't want to wear the shirt because they don't agree with whatever is printed on it....

It was Wigan Athletic Football Clubs recognition of Remembrance day not an individual player. If he felt that strongly about it he should have withdrawn from the team then he might have earned some respect ...

Wasn't there a case recently where a footballer felt that he couldn't wear a shirt because it went against what he believed in as a Moslem?

 

[Vid]

Wasn't there a case recently where a footballer felt that he couldn't wear a shirt because it went against what he believed in as a Moslem?

Did he catch a cold ?

 

[GP200]

Wasn't there a case recently where a footballer felt that he couldn't wear a shirt because it went against what he believed in as a Moslem?

...........Newcastle player with a betting or alcohol sponsor??????.........

 

[detours]

I assume the player is under contract to wear the company uniform .The club chose to add the poppy to their uniform. I'm sure some players have strong opinions about the products advertised on their shirts. It's an endorsement by the club not an individual player.

"Why should an individual have to suffer because he holds views which contradict the orthodoxy? I thought that the freedom to dissent was one of the reasons we (UK) fought the two World Wars."

He was free to dissent by not playing ...as was Eric Liddle...Euan Murray.

I think you can look to the way Brentford handled a similar issue about wearing a kit to support a campaign exactly two months ago today. The statement reads:

“The players are aware of the campaign and have been given rainbow laces. We are, however, very clear that it has to be an individual choice. All players have routines and superstitions regarding the way they prepare for a match and no-one would want to disrupt that.”

It's quite clearly an individual choice. Close thread.

 

[Ealing Bee]

I've got news for you - the British Army stationed in Ireland were a foreign, occupying force - they weren't fighting WWI.

Just before War broke out, the British Government passed an Act granting Home Rule to Ireland, which had to be suspended with the outbreak of hostilities.

Subsequently, many thousands of ordinary Irishmen joined up for a variety of reasons eg some out of sympathy for "poor little Belgium", some because the Catholic Church in Ireland supported the allied efforts, but also many who wanted to impress upon the British Government in London that Ireland would 'do its bit', and so fully deserved to see Home Rule implemented.

Meanwhile, a small, violent clique of entirely unrepresentative, unelected rebels took up arms against the British Army in Ireland, whilst their fellow Irishmen were fighting and dying in their thousands in the British Army in Flanders.

You may sympathise, but I see it as disgusting, and I am not alone in that. For the defeated rebels were pelted with rotten fruit and vegetables by the locals when they were marched by the British Army though the streets of Dublin following the end of the Rising.

And the Easter 1916 rebels are celebrated in Ireland today. But have it your way :shrug:

Just as the Great War is commemorated by the Irish Government eg in Enniskillen and London earlier this week:

I guarantee you will NEVER see James McClean expressing similar respect for the death of so many of his fellow Irishmen in two World Wars, regardless of whatever "his" letter to Whelan claimed.

Lying hypocrite.

 

[Vid]

I think you can look to the way Brentford handled a similar issue about wearing a kit to support a campaign exactly two months ago today. The statement reads:

“The players are aware of the campaign and have been given rainbow laces. We are, however, very clear that it has to be an individual choice. All players have routines and superstitions regarding the way they prepare for a match and no-one would want to disrupt that.”

It's quite clearly an individual choice. Close thread.

From 'tinternet..."In soccer, jersey and team sponsors are out of the hands of the player. Kits are manufactured by the likes of Adidas, Nike, Puma and Warrior. As a player in this instance, you wear what the team wears. However, boots, cleats, shoes – or whatever you want to call them – are the one piece of equipment which are fair game."

Boots and laces are an individuals choice, shirts are not. Reopen thread.

 

[Paul O'Brien]

It might be worth McClean wearing a variant poppy next year. there are black poppies for dissenters, whte ones for peace, purple ones for animals who died, and ones with four petals and no leaf for Scotland. A green one could indicate Ireland.

I do disagree strongly with the hijacking of the symbol to represent all British soldiers - how far back do we go? Napoleonic times, for example, in which case how would the French who fought in the British Army (and there were some) perceive it?

I think it should represent the Allied forces in WW1 and WWII, no more and no less (unless it were to represent all those innocents who died).

 

[detours]

From 'tinternet..."In soccer, jersey and team sponsors are out of the hands of the player. Kits are manufactured by the likes of Adidas, Nike, Puma and Warrior. As a player in this instance, you wear what the team wears. However, boots, cleats, shoes – or whatever you want to call them – are the one piece of equipment which are fair game."

Boots and laces are an individuals choice, shirts are not. Reopen thread.

No one can be forced to wear a poppy - that's really the end of it.

Or maybe you'd like him deported to Ireland for hate speech :shrug:

 

[horshambees]

I've got news for you - the British Army stationed in Ireland were a foreign, occupying force - they weren't fighting WWI.

And the Easter 1916 rebels are celebrated in Ireland today. But have it your way :shrug:

Ealing is never going to change his mind on this subject of unelected thugs taking up arms against an occupation by a foreign force which disses any other uprising in history.

Was Boadicea right in uprising against the Romans?

French Revolution?

Any Irishman has the right to mourn The Easter Rebellion if they so wish and our British Government made sure that any rebels who were caught were executed and thus martyrdom was created.
Of course the Rising was a prequel to the Irish War of Independence.
No doubt Ealing bee would condemn the unelected rabble even thinking about ruling their own country.

The Volunteers were freedom fighters to many and still are.To the British they are terrorists,guerrillas or simply the enemy and still are.

We were an occupying force and that is fact.

The Easter Lily is the equivalent of our Poppy btw and if an Irishman wants to wear one then so be it.He should wear it with pride in the same way my little man went to school this morning with his poppy on his school jumper which was attached by me to remember our distant relations who lost their lives during the Great War.

Too many innocent lives lost in Ireland and in Europe during this time and why??
Because Governments ordered it to be that way.

 

[Vid]

No one can be forced to wear a poppy - that's really the end of it.

Or maybe you'd like him deported to Ireland for hate speech :shrug:

The Irish wouldn't have him.