Paul Ince

[The Pipe]

Don't believe anyone can realistically produce stats to confirm that " black" managers/coaches are discriminated against although my gut feeling is that it is probably more difficult

There is no way of knowing how many have applied for jobs, what badges they have, what experience they can produce and how they come across in interviews

For a number of managers they have started in non league and progressed from there, as Gayle is doing now, however for some that level of football is below their expectations and accordingly they do not apply

Reckon it will be another dozen years before things change by which time the numbers of black ex players will be about 50%

 

[Evermore]

Anyone remember him delaying kickoff after halftime with his slow diagonal walk across the pitch to the dugout, with a smug look on his face. I don't think race has anything to do with it in his case. Really ugly, dirty football, a crap record, and a serious attitude problem. What a berk.

 

[hatfieldbee]

Anyone remember him delaying kickoff after halftime with his slow diagonal walk across the pitch to the dugout, with a smug look on his face. I don't think race has anything to do with it in his case. Really ugly, dirty football, a crap record, and a serious attitude problem. What a berk.

Yes! Btw interesting item about him in FLP today, saying (as before on here) too many "big names" appointed as Managers (unsuccessfully), but much more Managerial talent available amongst the 'non' names. Breadman being a prime example!

 

[Ealing Bee]

You still haven't answered my question- have you any evidence that black coaches are being discriminated against and white coaches are being awarded roles they haven't earnt. Don't reply with BS, show us proof

So you want ME to dig out evidence to refute a theory* which YOU made, without your having first produced a scintilla of evidence for your theory yourself?

As a Debating Tactic, that's barely a step up from calling somebody "a knob"...


* - A theory which lacks basic logic, btw

 

[absenteebee]

 

[sonofabee]

So you want ME to dig out evidence to refute a theory* which YOU made, without your having first produced a scintilla of evidence for your theory yourself?

As a Debating Tactic, that's barely a step up from calling somebody "a knob"...


* - A theory which lacks basic logic, btw

I haven't got a clue what you're on about.
You rambled on about how you were concerned that black coaches weren't getting jobs or weren't applying to be coaches.
I simply asked for evidence and you seem to have gone into meltdown- what debate, I'm just interested if it's you writing what you feel like or if there is any substance, why do you have a problem?

 

[Ealing Bee]

You've said it yourself, your argument is your opinion. You've been asked to back up with facts.

My argument is based on the simple fact that Managers are overwhelmingly appointed from the ranks of ex-players, and black players have for a couple of decades constituted up to 20%+ of the playing roster in this country, yet black ex-players have never comprised even 5% of the Managers in the game.

The study is based on 1,000 people. That is 15% of a Bees gate. When it actually comes down to it, it is a lot less than 1% of those that go to football each week. Hardly representative.

From the world's best-known polling organisation: "The typical sample size for a Gallup poll, either a traditional stand-alone poll or one night's interviewing from Gallup's Daily tracking, is 1,000 national adults with a margin of error of ±4 percentage points."
http://www.gallup.com/poll/101872/how-does-gallup-polling-work.aspx

There may or may not be racism in the boardroom when appointing a manager, but when more than half of Premiership managers are not English, your case tends to stumble at the first hurdle.

Quite aside from the fact that you keep quoting the Premiership, which constitutes fewer than a quarter of Managers, you are conflating Racism with Xenophobia, the latter* being a different subject altogether


* - And something which I feel poses no problems in the English game today. Unlike Racism.

As far as this topic is concerned, Paul Ince is a grade A Cock and shouldn't be allowed to manage, a great player, but not a manager. I felt the same way about Terry Butcher and he is a slightly litter shade on the old skin colour. As for Darren Ferguson, he ticks of lot of the 'What Ever You Do, Don't Employ Him As A Manager' boxes. Does that make me racist or realistic?

Total Non Sequitur - No one is arguing that the appointment or dismissal of Ince, Butcher or Ferguson has anything to do with the colour of their skin

 

[Billy Hunt]

Talk is cheap. Kick 'im in the nuts. :box:

 

[gashbee]

Ealing - Are you black?
Salford - Are you racist?
in case either have the painters in. :kiss:

 

[Ealing Bee]

can see why people get bored by Ealing Bee banging on about a total non-issue. i am not quite bored enough to work out how many of the 92 have once had a black manager. are we approaching 50% yet? i'm out of touch so maybe i'm being wildly optimistic. but it's not like clubs are posting adverts with "only whites need apply"

So Racism in Football is "a total non-issue", is it?

If you believe that, then you really are "out-of-touch".

P.S. If you really find it/me so "boring", then why the Hell do you bother to get involved? I find eg "Downton Abbey" tedious in the extreme, but I don't tune-in every Sunday just so I can shout "Boring!" at the screen for an hour...

 

[Ealing Bee]

Don't believe anyone can realistically produce stats to confirm that " black" managers/coaches are discriminated against although my gut feeling is that it is probably more difficult

There is no way of knowing how many have applied for jobs, what badges they have, what experience they can produce and how they come across in interviews

For a number of managers they have started in non league and progressed from there, as Gayle is doing now, however for some that level of football is below their expectations and accordingly they do not apply

Reckon it will be another dozen years before things change by which time the numbers of black ex players will be about 50%

Thank you for that (typically) considered reply, Pipe.

Re your final sentence, are you saying that the numbers of black players will have to break through the 50% threshold before anything will change?

Or that that is coincidental, and the mere passage of time will do it?

For if it is the latter, I don't see how/why another dozen years will make any difference, when the last 20-odd years haven't.

 

[To Bee Someone]

Ince and Rae spent the whole game snarling and intimidating the 4th official and lino - didn't we get a late equaliser?

I remember there was an absolutely horrendous challenge, probably one that Ince made them practice on the training ground. It didn't feel like we were watching a football game, all control went out the window

 

[Ealing Bee]

I haven't got a clue what you're on about.
You rambled on about how you were concerned that black coaches weren't getting jobs or weren't applying to be coaches.
I simply asked for evidence and you seem to have gone into meltdown- what debate, I'm just interested if it's you writing what you feel like or if there is any substance, why do you have a problem?

My first contribution to this thread was in post #150.

You will see that the "numbers of black ex-players qualifying/applying etc" is not my argument. Rather it is one which you have used, even though you have not produced any evidence to show it exists, never mind has a bearing.

In fact, in my only reference to your argument, I have accepted that it may be (stress the "may") that black ex-players take their Badges, and/or apply for Management jobs, in proportionally fewer numbers than their white counterparts. And even if that is the case (stress the "if"), imo that is just as likely to be a symptom* of the problem, as the cause.

Meanwhile, I await your citing some (any?) evidence to support your contention that black ex-players may have fewer qualifications, or are less willing to apply for Managers' jobs, than their white counterparts...




* - That is, they may be being discouraged from trying, since they feel the odds are stacked against them, no matter what they do. And further, they may well not want to stick their head above the parapet and even speak about it, for fear of getting a name for themselves as Troublemakers, or being "chippy" etc.

 

[sonofabee]

My first contribution to this thread was in post #150.

You will see that the "numbers of black ex-players qualifying/applying etc" is not my argument. Rather it is one which you have used, even though you have not produced any evidence to show it exists, never mind has a bearing.

In fact, in my only reference to your argument, I have accepted that it may be (stress the "may") that black ex-players take their Badges, and/or apply for Management jobs, in proportionally fewer numbers than their white counterparts. And even if that is the case (stress the "if"), imo that is just as likely to be a symptom* of the problem, as the cause.

Meanwhile, I await your citing some (any?) evidence to support your contention that black ex-players may have fewer qualifications, or are less willing to apply for Managers' jobs, than their white counterparts...




* - That is, they may be being discouraged from trying, since they feel the odds are stacked against them, no matter what they do. And further, they may well not want to stick their head above the parapet and even speak about it, for fear of getting a name for themselves as Troublemakers, or being "chippy" etc.

I'm not sure I've cited anything about black players having less qualifications have I?

 

[Ealing Bee]

Ealing - Are you black?

No.

 

[Ealing Bee]

I'm not sure I've cited anything about black players having less qualifications have I?

No, you certainly haven't "cited" [sic] anything about Black players being under-qualified etc.

Rather, you have raised that as a possible explanation, so as to undermine my own thesis that (Institutional) Racism must play at least some part in the extreme under-representation of black ex-players in the ranks of Management in English football.

For example, in your post #173, you wrote this: "The point is there are significantly more black players in football nowadays but I'd like to know how many fully qualified black coaches - if they take their badges and interview well they will get every chance of jobs on the lower rungs first off". And you have followed up subsequently on the same theme (eg post #177).

Why do you even ask the question, unless you feel it could be material?

So it's time to make your position clear, I think.

Namely, do YOU believe that black players are less well-qualified (Badges etc) than their white counterparts, and that they should therefore have no right to "do a Sol Campbell" (your post #184), and complain about their under-representation as Managers?

 

[sonofabee]

No, you certainly haven't "cited" [sic] anything about Black players being under-qualified etc.

Rather, you have raised that as a possible explanation, so as to undermine my own thesis that (Institutional) Racism must play at least some part in the extreme under-representation of black ex-players in the ranks of Management in English football.

For example, in your post #173, you wrote this: "The point is there are significantly more black players in football nowadays but I'd like to know how many fully qualified black coaches - if they take their badges and interview well they will get every chance of jobs on the lower rungs first off". And you have followed up subsequently on the same theme (eg post #177).

Why do you even ask the question, unless you feel it could be material?

So it's time to make your position clear, I think.

Namely, do YOU believe that black players are less well-qualified (Badges etc) than their white counterparts, and that they should therefore have no right to "do a Sol Campbell" (your post #184), and complain about their under-representation as Managers?

FFS, I asked how many black players have taken their badges and applied for jobs so that I can form an educated opinion.

Unlike you I won't express my opinion on such a potentially sensitive issue until I have facts. If a lot of white players finishing their careers now are taking their badges but black players aren't, it's probably worth asking the black players why but only if stats to back up.

All we do know is there are likely to be a lot more retiring black ex footballers in this decade than ever before so I would expect to see an increase in black coaches assuming the number applying is in proportion to non black Managers.

Now if you've formed your opinion without any facts or stats fair do's but please don't explain or justify.
If you have, I apologise and look forward to reading.

 

[SmiffyBee]

What about Asian managers?

 

[sonofabee]

What about Asian managers?

You're not funny, you're being very childish. lol

 

[Bee H]

Meanwhile, I await your ... evidence to support your contention that black ex-players .... are less willing to apply for Managers' jobs, than their white counterparts...
.

If you read the following about one of our former loan players http://beatsandrhymesfc.com/mickael...triker-at-home-again-with-high-flying-accies/ you'll note the bit that says "After I retire I’d love to carry on with football. You never know but I don’t think I’d like to be a manager, I think it’s a very difficult job. I could see myself as a scout and going out to study players."

In one particular BFC Manager search within the last 8 years, I can promise you that we had 53 serious applications and only one came from a black candidate, he fell down with about 20/25 others at the first hurdle (coaching badges).

Personally I think you're on the wrong Club forum, we have no racism at Brentford, we have had black players such as Lloyd Owusu, Ijah, Darren Powell, Francis Joseph, Clayton Donaldson ..... (it's a very, very, very lengthy list !) who are/have been adored by our fanbase.
We have had Leroy Rosenior as Manager, one of the nicest blokes you could ever have the good fortune to meet but "it's a results business".
We had an absolute top Man at the club in Osi Aibanjee who is at the helm of helping shape the playing future of our Club ...

I really don't know what you're trying to achieve. All on here and involved with BFC know there is absolutely no room for racism in life full stop, we've worked hard to get that message across yet you seem intent on trying to stir something up ? :shrug:

There is absolutely and most definitely no racism whatsoever in the Boardroom of BFC

Apologies if I've read your posts and reached an incorrect conclusion.

 

[Ealing Bee]

FFS, I asked how many black players have taken their badges and applied for jobs so that I can form an educated opinion.

Unlike you I won't express my opinion on such a potentially sensitive issue until I have facts. If a lot of white players finishing their careers now are taking their badges but black players aren't, it's probably worth asking the black players why but only if stats to back up.

Why pick on that possible explanation, when it is illogical*, and there is a more plausible explanation** staring us all in the face?

Such an argument might account for a small discrepancy, or a temporary one, but up to 10 x times underrepresentation, over a period approaching two decades, is far too stark to exclude Racism completely (imo).


* - It is incredibly competitive to become a pro-footballer, therefore anyone who does must inevitably be very committed to the game. Therefore why should up to 10x times more black footballers lose their commitment when retiring from the game than their white counterparts? It doesn't make sense, unless there is something deterring them (imo).
** - That is, the small, homogeneous group of people who make up the Owners/Chairmen of the 92 clubs are prejudiced, albeit unintentionally, in how they interview and appoint Managers.

All we do know is there are likely to be a lot more retiring black ex footballers in this decade than ever before so I would expect to see an increase in black coaches assuming the number applying is in proportion to non black Managers.

The argument that we will likely see more black managers in the game in the future, as an inevitable consequence of the present number of blacks playing presently etc doesn't stand up to scrutiny, since high numbers of black people have been playing the game for two decades now, whilst the number of black managers has remained extremely low. And it doesn't take two decades for a player to qualify as a Coach, then proceed to being a Manager, as the current number of (white) Managers in their 40's, who retired in their 30's, testifies.

Now if you haven't formed you'd opinion without any facts or stats fair do's but please don't explain or justify.
If you have, I apologise and look forward to reading.

"Facts" or "Stats", is it?

Here's one: up to 25% players are black, whilst fewer than 5% of Managers are black. And until someone comes up with a plausible alternative reason(s), as to why that should be, then I can only conclude that Racism must be a major factor, maybe even the major factor.

And it's not just me who believes that, but the PFA, arguably the organisation best-placed to make that judgment. Otherwise why would it be supporting radical reform to combat the situation?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ule-boost-numbers-black-managers-England.html

 

[Ealing Bee]

There is absolutely and most definitely no racism whatsoever in the Boardroom of BFC

Apologies if I've read your posts and reached an incorrect conclusion.

I don't believe there to be ANY racism within BFC, I was talking about English football in general.

In fact, having taken a chance on Leroy as you say, I completely agree that Brentford can prove its credentials in that respect.

Now as it happens, I don't believe that other clubs' Owners/Chairmen are consciously Racist, it's just that they are not open to recruiting Managers from outside the same-old, same-old pool of candidates. In which respect, I'd say Brentford are an interesting exception to the norm, in their evident willingness to think radically when making appointments such as Rosler and Warburton.

Which is something I think Bees fans can be proud of, both for the way it sets the club apart AND the success it can bring.

 

[sonofabee]

Why pick on that possible explanation, when it is illogical*, and there is a more plausible explanation** staring us all in the face?

Such an argument might account for a small discrepancy, or a temporary one, but up to 10 x times underrepresentation, over a period approaching two decades, is far too stark to exclude Racism completely (imo).


* - It is incredibly competitive to become a pro-footballer, therefore anyone who does must inevitably be very committed to the game. Therefore why should up to 10x times more black footballers lose their commitment when retiring from the game than their white counterparts? It doesn't make sense, unless there is something deterring them (imo).
** - That is, the small, homogeneous group of people who make up the Owners/Chairmen of the 92 clubs are prejudiced, albeit unintentionally, in how they interview and appoint Managers.

The argument that we will likely see more black managers in the game in the future, as an inevitable consequence of the present number of blacks playing presently etc doesn't stand up to scrutiny, since high numbers of black people have been playing the game for two decades now, whilst the number of black managers has remained extremely low. And it doesn't take two decades for a player to qualify as a Coach, then proceed to being a Manager, as the current number of (white) Managers in their 40's, who retired in their 30's, testifies.

"Facts" or "Stats", is it?

Here's one: up to 25% players are black, whilst fewer than 5% of Managers are black. And until someone comes up with a plausible alternative reason(s), as to why that should be, then I can only conclude that Racism must be a major factor, maybe even the major factor.

And it's not just me who believes that, but the PFA, arguably the organisation best-placed to make that judgment. Otherwise why would it be supporting radical reform to combat the situation?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ule-boost-numbers-black-managers-England.html

You can't even read, I posted if you don't have facts don't bother with a lengthy explanation.

Yet again you've bored me into submission, you haven't answered a single bloody question you've been asked and all I wanted to know was did you have any stats as too how how many qualified black coaches and how many have been unsuccessful when applying for jobs?

A simple "I don't know" will suffice but if you do have the info please share.

 

[sonofabee]

I don't believe there to be ANY racism within BFC, I was talking about English football in general.

In fact, having taken a chance on Leroy as you say, I completely agree that Brentford can prove its credentials in that respect.

Now as it happens, I don't believe that other clubs' Owners/Chairmen are consciously Racist, it's just that they are not open to recruiting Managers from outside the same-old, same-old pool of candidates. In which respect, I'd say Brentford are an interesting exception to the norm, in their evident willingness to think radically when making appointments such as Rosler and Warburton.

Which is something I think Bees fans can be proud of, both for the way it sets the club apart AND the success it can bring.

How many of these Chairman have not considered black candidates and be good to name them.

Do you know this to be fact?

 

[WarrenBee]

I thought this thread was about Paul Ince? Who let's face it, if he was white, yellow, green, orange, maroon, pink, red, or any other colour you care to think of is still a prize c++t. Or have I missed something?

 

[sonofabee]

I thought this thread was about Paul Ince? Who let's face it, if he was white, yellow, green, orange, maroon, pink, red, or any other colour you care to think of is still a prize c++t. Or have I missed something?

Sorry, Ealing Bee hi jacked this thread with his allegation of "unconscious" institutionalised racism in Football Management.
Foolishly I bit and got involved in trying to uncover his source and facts but here we are a day later and he's still trotting out lengthy irrelevant posts that don't answer the questions.

Apologies again, I really should know better.

 

[Ealing Bee]

You can't even read, I posted if you don't have facts don't bother with a lengthy explanation.

Yet again you've bored me into submission, you haven't answered a single bloody question you've been asked and all I wanted to know was did you have any stats as too how how many qualified black coaches and how many have been unsuccessful when applying for jobs?

A simple "I don't know" will suffice but if you do have the info please share.

See "The Pipe's" answer, above (post #201).

And the rest of my answers...

 

[sonofabee]

See "The Pipe's" answer, above (post #201).

And the rest of my answers are as you suspected, my usual drivel and I don't know....

That's what I thought. lol

 

[Ealing Bee]

Sorry, Ealing Bee hi jacked this thread with his allegation of "unconscious" institutionalised racism in Football Management.

It was 'homeless bee' who first raised the topic of Racism on this thread when he posted this: "There is blatant racism in football when it comes to black guys getting jobs on the coaching / management side of things" (post #124).

'JBN' then followed up on it in post #132, followed (ahem) by you in post #133.

Seeing as I didn't contribute to the thread until post #150, I can hardly be responsible for having "hi-jacked" it onto that topic.

 

[sonofabee]

It was 'homeless bee' who first raised the topic of Racism on this thread when he posted this: "There is blatant racism in football when it comes to black guys getting jobs on the coaching / management side of things" (post #124).

'JBN' then followed up on it in post #132, followed (ahem) by you in post #133.

Seeing as I didn't contribute to the thread until post #150, I can hardly be responsible for having "hi-jacked" it onto that topic.

Suggest you read your posts back and re consider - you've written far more than anybody else but proved nothing.

Good night

 

[Ealing Bee]

Suggest you read your posts back and re consider - you've written far more than anybody else but proved nothing.

Good night

Whether or not I have written "more" about Racism, I most certainly did not write about it first, which is what you claimed ("hi-jacking" the thread).

But anyway, you make sure and get a good night's sleep. Maybe you'll dream up some more nonsense...

 

[hatfieldbee]

It amazes me sometimes the amount of time people spend on this site and the time it must take to type their posts. Are their computers on all day every day with just the gpg for company? Eyes glued to the screen all day? Any work get done or household stuff? Not having a go at anyone, just intrigued. Sorry in advance for highjacking this thread.

 

[Salford Bee]

Ealing - Are you black?
Salford - Are you racist?
in case either have the painters in. :kiss:

I'm Paul Ince-ist.

I thought this thread was about Paul Ince? Who let's face it, if he was white, yellow, green, orange, maroon, pink, red, or any other colour you care to think of is still a prize c++t. Or have I missed something?

That's how I see it.

 

[Mr Tree]

So Racism in Football is "a total non-issue", is it?

it's definitely over-egged. but in this specific instance you've extrapolated "disproportionate number of black managers" into "racism in football" as a whole. a touch unfair.

i don't think the problem is anywhere close to being as bad as you seem to be trying to make out. but to be honest, i have to resort to skim-reading your posts in between looking to see if there are sensible contributors here. maybe there is a slight discrepancy between "number of black managers you might reasonably expect" and "number of black managers presently working", but it's better than it ever was and improving all the time - so why are you going on and on about it? in all the blathering i'm entirely unclear as to what point you're trying to make.

 

[Billy Hunt]

it's definitely over-egged. but in this specific instance you've extrapolated "disproportionate number of black managers" into "racism in football" as a whole. a touch unfair.

i don't think the problem is anywhere close to being as bad as you seem to be trying to make out. but to be honest, i have to resort to skim-reading your posts in between looking to see if there are sensible contributors here. maybe there is a slight discrepancy between "number of black managers you might reasonably expect" and "number of black managers presently working", but it's better than it ever was and improving all the time - so why are you going on and on about it? in all the blathering i'm entirely unclear as to what point you're trying to make.

I can't believe I've done all my 'likes' already! :no: :shrug:

Sorry, Tree.

 

[JBN]

If disproportionately fewer black players are taking their Badges and applying for Managers' jobs etc, I feel that this is a symptom of the problem, not the cause of it.

I am prepared to accept that there may be some* reasons other than Racism which could explain a certain disparity, but nowhere near sufficiently to explain 20% of black players, but only 2% of black Managers.

In you theory are you including black players from overseas?

For example, there are several black players from overseas in most of the Premiership squads, this looks to reduce to more black homegrown players in the lower leagues. I would expect black players from overseas to return home when their footy careers have finished and take coaching badges in their native countries and start their managerial careers back home.

 

[absenteebee]

Did Juan Mata really say something like he was proud to wear the number 8 for United, "like Paul Ince"?

 

[hobbsy]

Did Juan Mata really say something like he was proud to wear the number 8 for United, "like Paul Ince"?

That's Paul Ince the player not Paul Ince the ***** manager.

 

[Ealing Bee]

it's definitely over-egged. but in this specific instance you've extrapolated "disproportionate number of black managers" into "racism in football" as a whole. a touch unfair.

i don't think the problem is anywhere close to being as bad as you seem to be trying to make out. but to be honest, i have to resort to skim-reading your posts in between looking to see if there are sensible contributors here.

So you haven't read my posts properly, but you still feel qualified to critique them?

Anyhow, nowhere did I claim that Racism is widespread in English football generally, eg when it comes to players, spectators or media. What I have been saying is that that the Owners and Chairmen of the 92 clubs appear to be Institutionally (i.e. unintentionally) Racist, since Managers are almost exclusively drawn from the ranks of ex-players, yet with black people constituting 20-25% of the playing roster, only around 2% of the Management roster are black.

And as someone who is interested in the game, I'd say that is a "big deal", both as a matter of principle, but also as a partial explanation for why English Managers are generally so poor i.e. they are only utilising 75% of the potential talent pool.

... maybe there is a slight discrepancy between "number of black managers you might reasonably expect" and "number of black managers presently working",

A "slight" discrepancy?

Jeez, on a strictly pro rata basis, there should be at least 20 black Managers in the game, instead there are currently two. Do you really consider 10 x times to be "slight"?

... but it's better than it ever was and improving all the time - so why are you going on and on about it?

No, it is NOT "better than it ever was". Since the dismissal of Ince, it has got worse i.e. 3 down to two. And the number has been pretty much the same for the last two decades i.e. fewer than five.

... in all the blathering i'm entirely unclear as to what point you're trying to make.

Then I suggest you stop "skimming" and try reading...

 

[Banana]

can see why people get bored by Ealing Bee banging on about a total non-issue. i am not quite bored enough to work out how many of the 92 have once had a black manager. are we approaching 50% yet? i'm out of touch so maybe i'm being wildly optimistic. but it's not like clubs are posting adverts with "only whites need apply"

Ealing Bee has made a completely valid assertion. And backed it up with SCIENCE.

 

[Ealing Bee]

In you theory are you including black players from overseas?

For example, there are several black players from overseas in most of the Premiership squads, this looks to reduce to more black homegrown players in the lower leagues. I would expect black players from overseas to return home when their footy careers have finished and take coaching badges in their native countries and start their managerial careers back home.

Once again, you refer to the Prem (20 Managers) to make your point, whilst ignoring the other 72.

But whether 20 or 92, your point doesn't add up. Of the current 92 Managers, 9 never played in England (Wenger, Laudrup, Pochettino, Garcia, Karanka, Meulensteen, Sannino, Mel), four did (Martinez, Poyet, Rosler, Solskjaer) and one never played (Mourinho):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Football_League_managers

Every single one of those 14 is White, as were numerous other former Managers such as Vialli, Zola, Di Matteo, Jol, Ramos, AVB, Santini, Gross, Di Canio, Mancini, Ancelloti, Hiddinck. Benitez, Houllier, Capello, Sven-Goren, Venglos etc etc etc. (I'm sure I've missed quite a few other white foreign managers).

Whereas I can only think of two foreign Managers who were black - Gullitt and Tigana.

Therefore whether home-grown, or recruited from abroad, English clubs overwhelmingly recruit white managers, rather than black.

 

[JBN]

Once again, you refer to the Prem (20 Managers) to make your point, whilst ignoring the other 72.

I have regularly mentioned 92 clubs and the lower leagues, even in the thread you are responding to above 'this looks to reduce to more black homegrown players in the lower leagues'.

There are so many other options available in the game, that weren't there years ago, particularly media work. There also plenty of foreign players who may choose to go back to their homeland to give something back to the game.

I was just wondering if you had factored those into your theory.

I think this needs a thread on its own.

 

[Bee H]

English clubs overwhelmingly recruit white managers, rather than black.

Have you a) checked the French, German, Spanish and Dutch leagues and b) the Welsh, Scottish and Irish Leagues and c) asked any black ex footballers why they don't apply for Football Manager jobs ? :shrug:

 

[absenteebee]

Must admit even I am getting a tad concerned that when Ince does pass away the news will be lost amongst a debate which probably should reside elsewhere.

 

[absenteebee]

That's Paul Ince the player not Paul Ince the ***** manager.

suppose so. I was going to say that even then I didn't think his playing achievements were outstanding. His time as a *****, and nasty, manager have almost wiped his playing career from my memory. He played in Serie A for Inter didn't he? Hmm, maybe he was a great number eight after all but I now just see him as a great big number two.

 

[Mr Tree]

So you haven't read my posts properly, but you still feel qualified to critique them?

my initial wade-in was saying they're boring posts and going on and on. i don't need to read them all to know that.

like i said, i'd be interested to know how many clubs have ever had a black manager? i certainly don't think they need to bring in positive discrimination rules. i'm sure we'll see more and more black managers in the future. Paul Ince being sacked for being useless is not a cause for concern or a sign of a bigger problem. even if we agreed with you, what do you want us to do about it? i'm still not sure what point you're really trying to make here: the FA should force black people to become football managers, or something..?

 

[Ealing Bee]

There are so many other options available in the game, that weren't there years ago, particularly media work.

As regards 'other [non-Management] options', those are available to white ex-pros just the same, yet a significant proportion of white footballers pursue a career in Management.

So why would black ex-pros only consider the other options, rather than Management, unless there was something deterring them from becoming Managers?

There also plenty of foreign players who may choose to go back to their homeland to give something back to the game.

I was just wondering if you had factored those into your theory.

So why do black footballers only go back to their homeland etc, whereas a significant number of white foreign players stay on in England and become Managers? Are black players who've played for English clubs not interested in Managing those clubs after they retire?

And of those who do go back home, but are then subsequently lured back to England to become Managers (eg Jol, Solksjaeer), why does this only happen to white candidates, and never to blacks?

I think this needs a thread on its own.

After someone first posted "He's a crap Manager and a very unpleasant person", there was really nothing more to discuss on the topic of Ince!

Therefore it was ripe for veering off in another direction, with 'homeless bee' (I think) landing on Racism and Black Managers in English football.

 

[Ealing Bee]

Have you a) checked the French, German, Spanish and Dutch leagues and b) the Welsh, Scottish and Irish Leagues and c) asked any black ex footballers why they don't apply for Football Manager jobs ? :shrug:

Don't know about the continental Leagues, but wouldn't be too surprised if they experience similar discrepancies between the number of black players and black managers.

But if black ex-pros are represented proportionally in management jobs in the continental leagues, then that actually makes English clubs even worse, since they have now recruited dozens of foreign Managers from the Continent (I listed a sample earlier) and only ONE has been black (Tigana).

As for the Scottish, Welsh and Irish Leagues (esp), those countries don't have nearly so high black populations as England (so fewer black players); the great majority of clubs are part-time, so don't sign nearly so many black (or white) footballers from abroad; and with so many Managerial jobs being poorly paid, even part-time, there is no incentive for non-natives to come from abroad to apply.

 

[AB]

I'm not sure whether this will have the effect of turning the thread into a "Black Football Manager" rules variation on Mornington Crescent but, here goes with a reverse shunt:

Leroy Rosenior

 

[sonofabee]

Have you a) checked the French, German, Spanish and Dutch leagues and b) the Welsh, Scottish and Irish Leagues and c) asked any black ex footballers why they don't apply for Football Manager jobs ? :shrug:

You won't get the answer, I've already asked but stand by for a long winded, off topic response